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object:JRE 550 - Rupert Sheldrake
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All right. Rupert sheldrake is here. Cue The music. Young James.

Speaker 2:     00:09:24   Yeah,

Speaker 3:     00:09:26   the Joe Rogan experience.

Speaker 2:     00:09:29   Joe Rogan podcast.

Speaker 3:     00:09:36   Thank you very patients. Rupert, Rupert Sheldrake, Ladies and gentlemen. Uh, I've, uh, I, I came to know of you through the trial logs that you did with Terence Mckenna, who I'm a huge fan of. And Ralph Abraham, and I thought they were some really fascinating conversations and you know, all terrence's mp3s are very, very thought inspiring and made you really like look at things from a very different in peculiar angle that he had a, he had a very unique way of looking at the world. But I came to know of you from that and I came to know of your ideas of morphic resonance, which I found to be really fascinating. And if you don't mind just explain to folks at home listening what the concept of morphic resonance is. It's the idea of memory in nature. The idea that the whole universe has a kind of memory to so called laws of nature are more like habits.

Speaker 3:     00:10:32   Each individual in this species draws on a collective memory and contri butes to it. It works on the base of similarity. Any pattern of activity similar to a later pattern of activity in a self organizing system influences it across space and time. So what it means in effect is that if you train rats to learn a new trick in Los Angeles and rats in New York and Sydney and London will learn the same thing quicker, straight away at the sanctuary evidence that this surprising effect happens if you crystallize a new chemical that's never existed before, and then after you've made him one place, it should get easier to Christianize or all over the world. So it's really a theory of habit and memory and um, it enables new patterns of learning to spread quicker than they might otherwise do. And it means that it should get easier to learn things that other people have already learned.

Speaker 3:     00:11:33   So this has been proven, this, this concept of rats being able to learn one thing in New York a quicker because they learned it already in San Francisco. Yes. I mean it wasn't done to test morphic resonance, which is still very controversial. It was done to test something else. It was done in, in years ago before the Second World War. A professor at Harvard called William McDougall wanted to find out if rats could learn quicker what their parents had learned. So he trained these rats to escape from the water maze. They had to swim. If they went out the wrong exit, they got an electric shock and if they weren't at the right exit, which was the wrong one, was lit up with a light. The other one was dim. If they went out the right exit, they just escaped from the maze and he tested them to see how many trials they've made before they learned, always go out of the DMX.

Speaker 3:     00:12:23   It. And the first generation took about 250 trials before they cottoned onto what was happening. The next generation, it was about 180 trials. The next generation, about 150, they got better and better. And, and he thought at first this was because there was something being passed on to the children may be through modifying the jeans or something like that, an inheritance for client characters. That was a kind of taboo in 20th century science. Um, and so people questioned his work, but because he was at Harvard and because he was a famous professor, um, they couldn't just dismiss it, he showed a huge effect. Um, so people tried repeating his work in the University of Edinburgh, Scotl and and Melbourne, Australia, and they found that there at started more or less where the Harvard rats had left off and in Melbourne they did an experiment that was particularly interesting. They went on getting better, the ones that were descended from the train parents in each generation, but they found that all rats of that breed, even if their parents had never been trained, we're getting better too. So whatever it was, it wasn't something to do with modifying the genes or what people would now call epigenetics. There was something else, much more mysterious going on and since no one knew what it was, uh, it was just ignored and forgotten.

Speaker 1:     00:13:52   That is really fascinating. So that would kind of make sense that if, if somehow or another the jeans or whatever that is in the rat is able to communicate with other of the same species over the, have a similar genetics of whatever it is that they're doing, whatever undefined thing that they're doing, connecting with them even across continents, across the other side of the planet. Yes. Wow.

Speaker 3:     00:14:21   That's right. And so the same mood. I think the same happens in evolution naturally in nature. There was a famous case with um, birds called blue tits and England and America, you call them chickadees, put that in the 19 twenties, started rating milk bottles in Britain we had then. And we still have a system where you get fresh milk delivered to your doorstep everyday in a bottle and then they wash the bottles and use them as a great system. We have right now in London. Um, so in the 19, 20 years they had caught, bought tops on these bottles and someone gnosis in Southampton, the cream at the top of their bottle had disappeared. The top had been tornado and the cream of disappeared. And when they watched, they sold that every morning these pollutants in Southampton had figured out they could tear off this cardboard strip and get free cream every morning.

Speaker 3:     00:15:16   And then everyone sort of interested in this. Then it turned up many, many miles away in another part of Britain and it turned up somewhere else. Bluetooth's don't fly very far. Their home loving birds and they don't migrate. So, um, scientists got interested and they set up a network all over Britain of people to observe this habit. And they got reports. It was coordinated from Cambridge University and they mapped the spread of the habit and it became clear that it was spreading faster and faster and it was being independently invest in, invented in other parts of Britain. So much so that the professor of biology at Oxford surrenders to hardy, suggested it must be happening by telepathy and that it was spreading too quickly. And the most interesting records from Holland because this started happening in Holland as well. And during the war, Holland was occupied by the Germans and milk deliveries stopped.

Speaker 3:     00:16:15   They didn't start again until about 1948, but seven or eight years after they stopped Bluetooth's only live three or four years. So there would've been no bluetooth's after the war that remembered the golden age of free cream. Um, so, um, when they milk deliveries began again in Holland, they started drinking the cream almost straightaway, all over Holland. So I would say this is a kind of collective memory that spread by morphic resonance and was remembered by morphic resonance. Um, and that's another example of this going on in the real world. Incidentally, I'm, they've now stopped doing it. They used to steal our cream in London until about 10 years ago when we switched to semi skimmed milk. There isn't any cream on bottles of semi skimmed milk and Bluetooth's have more or less given up in Britain because 70 people have switched to semi skimmed milk. They don't get any cream. It's not worth the effort. So I'm at the habits died out.

Speaker 1:     00:17:14   That's pretty fascinating. The idea that human beings start off as a blank slate has really been questioned quite a bit over the last generation and a genetics in particular. They're starting to understand that there's certain particular traits and memories that you can actually learn from your parents. Like there was one study they did with mice where they had taken mice and they had given them an electric shock and coincided that electric shock with the smell of citrus hill. There was electric shock and their feet. Are you aware of this test?

Speaker 3:     00:17:48   Yes, I am. It was published in nature with a provocative title, inheriting the fears of fathers. It's a very, very fascinating study. Amazing staff. I mean that I think could be partly due to morphic resonance, so have you explained it to people before? I might have, but please do. Well, what they did was they used a chemical synthetic chemical called acetone for known that smells sort of vaguely fruity, but it's something that mice would never have encountered in nature because it's a synthetic chemical and they took male mice and expose them to smell of acetone who known and they gave them a mild electric shock on their poor when they smelled this stuff. Um, and the result is classical Pavlovian conditioning, you know, a few times of that happening as soon as they smelled acetone now. And they were terrified. I'm perfectly standard stuff in science.

Speaker 3:     00:18:47   What wasn't standard was the then bread from these mice and they did some of the experiments using artificial insemination so that the mothers never even met the fathers of the next generation. And then they tested their children and their grandchildren and whenever they smelt acetone for known, they were just paralyzed with fear. So the inherited the fear of this chemical in a single generation, um, in a way that regular science simply can't explain. Um, and this went far beyond anything anyone would have expected. There's evidence from the details of the experiments that involved some changes in the sperm, some change in the genes or the epigenetics, which is the packaging if the genes, but no one can conceive how a mouse learning to avoid this smell and being frightened by it all that they were, knows how all that information could be transferred into genes and the sperm.

Speaker 3:     00:19:47   So I think at least part of the explanation of this is morphic resonance that if you make some animals adverse to something, then they're deciding, well, other animals have the same kind will be frightened of it. I did a very similar experiments actually years ago with a skeptical scientist in Britain called Steven rose. Um, we had a controversy in the Guardian newspaper. I wrote her. I used to write a column in the Guardian and I wrote a thing about the nature of memory and how morphic resonance helps to explain it. We can discuss that later if you'd like, but that rose was outraged by this. He'd spent his whole career working on memory saying must be inside the brain. And he worked with day old chicks and in the Guardian he wrote a response to my article and challenged me to do an experiment in his laboratory under his supervision to test what he called this seemingly absurd hypothesis.

Speaker 3:     00:20:48   Um, well, uh, what the, the experiment we did, we had dale chicks and Dale chicks peck at anything bright. So we had them packet silvery bead work. And after the silverbeet they're injected with saline solution is just a control. They, they didn't feel early. Everything was fine. We also had them pack at a yellow light emitting diode and after they'd packed at that, the checks that had packed at the yellow light emitting diode were injected with something that made them feel sick. Lithium chloride, I think it was, it made them feel sick. It didn't kill me, it just made them feel ill. And you know, if you ever eat anything and you feel sick after it, you, you never want to eat that thing again. It's, it's a, it's called conditioned to Vashon. And so these checks, when you tested them a day or two later, they would avoid yellow lights, but they'd pack at the chrome bead, the silverbeet, which hadn't made them sick and that's straightforward.

Speaker 3:     00:21:56   They learned to avoid it. But what I predicted was that in, so we, if we did the experiment over and over again, every day we get a new batch of fresh chicks and test them with the yellow, a light emitting diode and the chrome bead. Um, I predicted that they'd start avoiding the yellow light emitting diode. Um, but not the chrome bead, because of the influence by morphic resonance from previous checks. They'd start avoiding it even before they'd been made of us to it for the first time they were exposed to it. They, they wouldn't go for it, they'd, they'd be more wary of it. And that's exactly what happened in this experiment. Um, so this is actually something that's well known in the rat poison industry. I mean, most people haven't spent much time looking into the rat poison industry and how it works.

Speaker 3:     00:22:49   But one thing that happens to people who try to poison rats for a living is that if you try some new kind of bait with a particular flavor, I'm rats eat it and they get sick and they die. Um, but it works for awhile. But after awhile, rat start avoiding it. They become what's called in the trade bait shy, um, and not just in one place, but the bait stops working, you know, miles and miles away. So you have to keep inventing new bates. That's why most rat poison, no is based on warfare in which causes bleeding, um, thins the blood and causes bleeding. And it doesn't usually affect the rats for days after they've eaten it. They don't associate it with any particular flavor because it's slow, slow acting. That's why people have had to switch to Warfarin as the main rat poison because this aversion to things that poison became so strong and to something that actually some people who are listening to us might know about, which I heard from a guy in America who fishes for Bass and he was telling me there's a constant development of new lawyers for bass fishing.

Speaker 3:     00:24:07   I do do, do, do, do fish quite a bit. Yes. Well apparently people are always inventing new lawyers that worked very well for awhile and apparently then they stopped working and not just in one place but elsewhere. So it was a constant development of new lawyers. Now, if that could be documented, um, that might be another very interesting case of morphic resonance. If Bass keep getting caught and they're in pain when they're caught by being finished with a particular kind of Leer, then other bass later evening, different rivers or lakes, um, uh, when they see that, you know, it would be more averse to biting it. So it stops working. So I think there could be many examples of this. I'm out there in the real world. When did you come up with this concept? Is this your concept, the concept of morphic resonance? Resonance? Yes.

Speaker 3:     00:24:58   Yes. I, I came up with this in 1973, long time ago. I was doing research at Cambridge University on plant development, how plants grow and I became convinced for a variety of reasons that, um, the attempt to explain the whole thing just in terms of genes and molecules and proteins wouldn't work. Um, I was at the very leading edge of this. I mean the main plant hormone is called Oxen Aux Ian and I figured out how it's made and then I figured out how it's transplanted, transported around the plant and this was a massive advance and this is kind of textbook stuff now in, in, in school, in University of textbooks, the mechanism of polar oxygen transport. So having figured all that out, I then realized this wasn't enough to explain plants because all plants have the same hormone and it's moved in the same way in every plant and it's moved to the same way and petals and leaves and stems and roots.

Speaker 3:     00:26:05   And it's moved to the same way in palms and cabbages and roses, and yet they're all different. So I got interested in something in biology called morphogenetic fields, the idea of invisible fields, the shape living organisms. So there's like an invisible mold as a flower grows, it's kind of invisible mold that shapes the way the petals develop and the flower develops or as a leaf grows, that's kind of invisible mold for that leaf called the morphogenetic field, like a kind of an invisible plan. This idea was not invented by me, it had been around in biology since the 19 years, but the key thing was to understand how these fields could be inherited. And I was sure it wouldn't go through the jeans, the jeans, just code for proteins. So they had to be some other kind of inheritance. How could it work? And I was wrestling with this idea in Cambridge and then the idea of morphic resonance came to me.

Speaker 3:     00:27:01   If you have a resonance across time between similar things, you could explain this inheritance of form and have instincts in animals in a non-genetic way, which would give a completely new way of understanding biology and inheritance. I then realized that this would apply to learning and memory and many aspects of human behavior. So I wrote this up in a book called a new science of life, which was published in 1981. It took me years to think this through. I realized that it would be controversial. Um, so I had to be very sure of myself before I could write about it. Then I wrote another book called the presence of the past which puts the theory forward in its fullest form. And that's my main theoretical book and since then I've really been trying to develop these ideas, test them, do experiments and so on. Anyway, it was my idea in the first place and since then it's become widely discussed in many areas.

Speaker 3:     00:27:59   And when you say that you, um, had to be sure of it, what did you do that made you sure of it? I mean, what is a, what, what kind of testing have you done to sort of hammer out this concept of morphic residence? Well, there were two aspects to being sure about it. The, the main objection that I got from my colleagues and in the scientific world, especially in biology, um, was not that they not. What's the evidence? They didn't say, what's the evidence they just said this idea is unnecessary because we're going to figure everything out in terms of genes and molecular biology. Um, so one line of research I had to do was to see whether the conventional approach in biology was likely to work or not. Um, and so I had to think really deep about standard science. Um, is this going to work it, they just said, give us time.

Speaker 3:     00:28:56   We'll figure it all that we don't need new ideas. We basically, everything's fine the way it is. And that's what led in the 19 eighties to people formulating the human genome project and um, which culminated in the year 2000 with the publication of the human genome. So they thought that that was adequate to explain. Once they got into the human genome, once they mapped it out, that was going to, they're going to be able explain pretty much everything about human being. That's right. They actually thought that. And that's why there was a huge investment. Hundreds of billions of dollars were invested in genomics and biotechnology on the grounds that gene's explain everything. One Gene, one characteristic does a gene for everything. If you can figure out the genes and manipulate the genes, basically you can control life. And if you can own the genes or own patients on the jeans, you can make billions of dollars.

Speaker 3:     00:29:47   That was the thinking and that was almost everybody was into that. But I was convinced that genes were grossly overrated, that they couldn't do most of these things that people thought they could. Um, because what genes do is code for the sequence of amino acids in proteins, protein molecules which make up our muscles and you know, the blood cells and they're the enzymes. And so on, a major part of life. Um, I'm a coded for by genes, but there's a huge difference between making the right proteins and the shape of your nose, for example, or the instincts of a spider to spin a web. I mean, it's, it's like saying you could explain the structure of the building by knowing the chemistry of the bricks. I mean you have to have breaks and you have to have cement and timber and stuff to make a building.

Speaker 3:     00:30:36   Um, and if you have defective bricks, you get a defective building, but it doesn't explain the plan of the building, the shape of the building. So I was convinced that these things would never be explained by genes that we needed something like morphogenetic fields and morphic resonance to explain them. So part of thinking about this was thinking hard about what regular science coach and could not achieve. And incidentally, I'll come to the evidence in a minute, but the, um, one of my predictions that there's biotechnology thing would be a disaster. It would mean people lose huge amounts of money. I advised my friends if they are investors, just don't bother, you know, the only way you make money in this is by getting in on the bubble and selling art in time because it's not really going to lead to that many useful product. Why are you so convinced?

Speaker 3:     00:31:29   Because I thought that the role of genes was totally overrated and um, this is in fact what's happened. Were you alone in this or were there some, a few people. There are a few people, but most people went along with this, you know, it's interesting. You see that the human genome project, they expected they'd have about 100,000 genes that turned out when they finally announced that there were only about 20,000 genes, we have less genes in the Seattle region and about half as many as a rice plant. That was a huge surprise to people and it soon became clear that it wasn't going to deliver on most of these promises. Craig venter, who had the private genome project, which was a rival of the publicly funded one. He's in a very, very competitive guy. Got He got there first. You know, he saw it as a race and he was going to win and he did. Um, and uh, even though he was technically very successful and the publicly funded genome project was technically successful, once they'd done it, it became immediately apparent this information was almost useless. And Craig venter's, his company is Celera genomics. The shares collapsed in a few days from about $60 a share to about twelve cents a share. And when he was interviewed after that, he said he's got a great sense of humor. He said, he said, I'm a guy who's made a million the hard way by working my way down from a billion.

Speaker 3:     00:33:06   The thing is, it didn't work. And yeah, in around four or five years ago, um, there was a development in science that most people haven't heard of yet outside science, but it's really big within the scientific journals called the missing heritability problem at. What they did is they took the genomes of 30,000 different people because it's quite cheap now to sequence genomes sequenced about 30,000 genomes. And to figure out what genes do what you know, they looked at the people, 30,000 people that they knew everything about their height, their diseases history and so forth. They started with height [inaudible] heights, easy to measure. You just need a tape measure and it's already known that tall parents tend to have taught children in short, parents tend to have short children. You can predict the height of children when they're grown on the basis of the parent's height with an accuracy of about 80 percent.

Speaker 3:     00:34:02   And in the technical language, they say height is 80 percent heritable. Well, they'd figured out that the genes complete genome of 30,000 different people. They knew their height, so they then ran all these correlations and statistics to figure out which genes are involved in height. And they found about 50 genes are involved in controlling height. Then they say they found some are more important than others. So they made their best models waiting some more than others and coming out with predictions and then they picked some people at random. The genomes, they'd did all their sums. They'd identified the genes, they ran the computer simulations, and they predicted these people's heights on the base of their genome, and then they looked up the height to see how good this method was. It turned out they could predict, hiked with an accuracy of five percent. Now you can do it with an actress of 80 percent just by using tape measures in a way that it's billions of dollars cheaper.

Speaker 3:     00:35:02   Um, so, um, they, they, uh, the, the gap between the five percent and the 80 percent, the 75 percent is not explained by the genes, is called the missing heritability problem. And it turned out that the same was true of most diseases for it. There's a few diseases where a defective gene gives a defective protein and you get a clear predictive values. Cystic fibrosis is one of them. Sickle cell anemia is another. So there's a few rare genetic diseases where this method works very well, but for most diseases, breast, cardiac problems, the predictive value of the GE name turned out to be only five to 10 percent. And all these companies sprang up that would offer to sequence people's genomes. And predict their diseases and the last one, 23 and me, it was put out of business by the FDA, uh, just a few months ago because they're advertising was misleading.

Speaker 3:     00:36:02   They, they cannot predict with more than about 10 percent accuracy the likelihood that you'll get a particular gi disease on the base of the genome, except for these rare genetic disorders. So this company, their entire business model was predicting people's vulnerability to certain diseases. I think that was their main business model. I mean there are certain things where genome sequencing is still valuable and used, you know, if you want, find out what your racial background is, you know, where did your ancestors come from? It's really good for that. And it has very useful information. I'm not saying this is useless, I'm saying it's, it has limited uses, but nothing like the bonanza of profits that people were expecting. There was a report by the Harvard Business School on this a few years ago on the biotech business and they said no one had ever invented such a massive money losing scheme in the history of humanity.

Speaker 3:     00:36:58   So I think that's because it was based on a false assumption of what genes do is. That's fascinating. What is the, when when people hear about the experiment with the, uh, the mice and the smell, what's the smell? Call again? The acetone, acetone. What's the conventional explanation for this? Uh, this memory being passed down into these animals that have never experienced that before, through, through breeding. Well, there isn't really one you see because the, the, it's something that Peter has rightly surprised about because the idea that you could actually do that, you could give off the brain or of the nose or could actually give off influences that travel through the blood and selectively modify sperm changing genes or the packaging of jeans. Nothing like that had been contemplated before. And this suggests something going is going on that regular science doesn't know about. And that's fine from the point of view of science.

Speaker 3:     00:37:58   I mean if you discover something new, then you have to try and figure out how it works, but no one really knows. And this sort of pushes molecular biology beyond its limits really. And people are working on this now and trying to figure out how it could happen. What are the conventional theories is, are there any. Well, there aren't really, I mean no one knows how I'm smelling something could affect genes or the packaging of jeans. Um, and even if they could even, if you could say there'd be a modification of the sperm to make people. Most of the offspring, the mice that descend from those sperm more sensitive to Acetate for noon. That doesn't necessarily explain why they'd be afraid of it. I mean it, if they trained me in a different way, acetone for known could have. They could lick their lips and thought, oh, this means food.

Speaker 3:     00:38:48   So you've got quite a lot of explaining to do and how these genes or the packaging of them could influence the brain is way beyond anything we can understand at present. So I think most people would say we just don't, haven't figured it out yet. And this is a fairly recent experiment. Two months ago, a few months ago, realized it was published a few months ago. How long did they work on this for though? Well, I suppose they must have been working on it for several years before they published it, but I mean, what's exciting in biology at the moment is that the standard off the shelf explanations that people used to have. It's all genetically programmed and that kind of thing. This is falling apart until the year 2000. There was a huge taboo in biology against the inheritance of acquired characteristics, which means say a father builds up his muscles and become stronger and our learns particular skills.

Speaker 3:     00:39:43   The idea that the children could inherit that was considered impossible. It they said no, it's all inheritances. Just genetic. Of course you get environmental influences. If, if a dad takes his boys to weight lifting classes and stuff, then obviously they'll become more muscular. Um, but the idea that it could be anything could be passed through the genes that had been learned or acquired was absolutely to Bu. It was a heresy in 20th century biology in the West. Interestingly, in the Soviet Union, they went the other way, started in like the idea that if people got better at things that our kids would be better at them, automatically they'd inherited and geneticists in the Soviet Union were persecuted and people who did research on the inheritance of acquired characteristics. We're well funded and prestigious and this polarized things even more. There was a kind of cold war in biology as well as in everything else.

Speaker 3:     00:40:41   But around the year 2000, it became clear that the really is an inheritance of acquired characteristics and it's been rebranded epigenetic inheritance. Um, and it's now a really hot topic in biology. And these mice inheriting the fear of their fathers experiments, a part of this new wave of research on epigenetics. And it turns out that a lot of things the Soviet biologists were claiming are actually true. I'm. One of the things I think ought to happen is that somebody who knows Russian, preferably someone who's in Russia goes back through these archives of Soviet biology from the 19 twenties, thirties, forties, and fifties when tens of thousands of biologists and the Soviet Union were working on what we now call epigenetic inheritance and, um, it's a mine of information that could be dusted off and could be really helpful to science, but nobody's done that yet because it's usually assumed the whole of that's been discredited. And, and even Russians don't want to talk about it.

Speaker 1:     00:41:47   That's so fascinating. It's so fascinating that, that scientists are just now piecing together this new information. Just start putting it together and pure. It's purely anecdotal evidence. I have young daughters and they wrestle around together and you know, they play in the bed and laugh and joke and I've been doing Jujitsu since the 19 nineties and my daughter's assumed Jujitsu positions. I see them do it before. I've taught them now, but when they were little, like three and four years old, my, my, my, my youngest would do what's called an over under control. She would grab her back and grip like a certain way that you teach people to do and then she would throw her legs over. It's called taking the back. It's a. it's a position, a standard position in Jujitsu, but it's not a normal position for people, but she would automatically go to it, pull my older daughter on top of her and take her back and it was the craziest thing to watch as a martial arts commentator, someone who understands, you know the correct way to do positions. I would watch her do it. I was like, she knows what she's doing. I don't think she knows why she knows what she's doing, but she assumed a position that I've done countless times, thousands of times in my life. It automatically came to her and I'm like, that has to be somehow or another in her code. Somehow or another, it's gone from my body.

Speaker 3:     00:43:05   Exactly. Whether it's a really, really interesting case and you see, I would call that morphic resonance that she's resonating with us. She's got your jeans, he's caught your proteins and those of her mother as well, of course. Um, but this similarity to you means she'd be in a particular strong resonance with you and would pick up things that you've acquired. And I think it's interesting you see in many traditional societies, children would follow in the footsteps of their parents, you know, blacksmiths, sons had become blacksmiths. And in India, the caste system, you know, if someone's a potter, they're kids that become potters and if they're a weaver, they're kids that become weavers. And um, I think this is partly because people would have a special aptitude for doing things their parents had done for skills their parents had acquired, not through the genes but by a kind of resonance obviously training and growing up in a household where people know these things plays an important part. But even before the regular training begins, you'd expect them to show these tendencies. And so that's a particularly interesting example because you're able to observe these positions most people wouldn't notice. But, um, that's the kind of thing that I think is likely to be going on all the time.

Speaker 1:     00:44:20   Yeah, there's been several of those positions there. I mean, sometimes it's just play. And I see them just rolling around, but then there's these clear patterns, like one of them is a knee to belly to the mount.

Speaker 3:     00:44:32   There's this position that you do when you're in what's called side control. You put your knee on someone's stomach, you slide it across, and you get on top of the mounting them with your hips above their hips and she does it. It instinctively. And it's not an instinctive move for most kids. And I try to, I try to be objective when I watch it. Like how much of this is just natural human movement and how much of this is like her actually having some information and there's clear blips where I go look at that data that is normal like in Jujitsu class, but it's not normal for kids. Like there's, there are things that they've learned. And then there's also like when I've taught them stuff, they pick things up. Like they already knew it. It's like I used to teach martial arts. So I've taught quite a few people and I know children are a little easier to teach than than other folks, but there's children of people who are martial artists and then there's children of people who have never studied martial arts and the children of people who are martial artists were almost universally easier to teach.

Speaker 3:     00:45:30   And it sort of backs up that idea. Yes. I mean, one could even do experiments on this, actually quantify it. I'm my own approach to science is that you have to start from what people have noticed, like your observations with kids of martial arts people including your own. And then if you want to take it further, you could do more rigorous observations and just standard explanation. People say, Oh, well they've seen their parents do to alucien videos or pictures of it around the house and that sort of thing. That might play some part in it. But, um, I think there's likely to be much more than that to this and when we'd obviously have to do special experiments too chunky out. Um, I mentioned, I think in many areas, um, it should be easier to teach kids whose parents have done something like my own kids.

Speaker 3:     00:46:22   My two sons are extremely musical, brilliant, new musical ones, a professional musician. Um, well I play the piano. My grandfa ther was a church organist. My uncle was a church organist. My father was very musical. My mother was, played the piano and was very musical. My wife's family were musical. Her mother was a concert pianist who found it was a pianist and a singer, and right from the age of four, they wanted to play the piano. They wanted to learn music and they shared a tremendous amount of ability to assimilate it. There are sometimes people who are very musical who come from non musical families, but some of the greatest musical geniuses come out of musical dentist is like buck. I mean, he came from a dentistry of musicians. And so I think that these, uh, these things are probably easier to learn if parents have learned them. It's so fascinating. Just the, the concept of learning things and learning things from some really an known source. One of the things that you brought up in the trial logs

Speaker 1:     00:47:30   I thought was particularly interesting and really resonated with me was you were talking about how children in New York City are afraid of monsters, that it's a natural inclination for children to be afraid of things in the dark with large teeth that are going to eat you. And that this goes back to the time where we were regularly. Predators took babies. They like big cats are monsters as it were in the night, would steal people, would eat. People prayed, preyed on human beings. That it makes sense that these children have this intuitive instinct built into their genetics or whatever it is.

Speaker 3:     00:48:10   Well, exactly. I mean, the, the standard. So to true, the human prehistoric past his man, the hunter, striding out onto the savannas of Africa and stuff. But, um, it was much more, I think the case man, the hunted. I mean, humans are particularly defenseless against big predators and until recent times were very vulnerable to them. Like Tigers in India, during the, under the British rule, even as late as 19 forties, um, there were thousands of people a year killed by managing tigers and they usually go for the most vulnerable. I mean, when predators are working in Africa, when lions are attacking herds of antelope or something, they go for the old and the sick or they go for the young because they are the ones that are the most vulnerable. So probably over huge amounts of human history, young children had indeed been eaten by predators and um, and still wear.

Speaker 3:     00:49:13   And, and probably today in some parts were maybe still are. These were the most realistic fears for huge periods of human history. And so I think it's fascinating that I'm young children have these nightmares. The study in New York looked at the nightmares of young children. Nearly all of them were about being chased by monsters or scary animals. Um, and of course we feed this imagination in children's through fairytales. Think of grimms fairy tales, you know, like Little Red Riding Hood where there's the big bad wolf, you know, that is going to eat up little red riding hood and the 70 stories in fairytales. Have wolves that could eat children and although nowadays the image of wolves has been sanitized and we're told that basically a furry loving creatures, et Cetera, they are predators and if they get the chance in the past, I think they did each children's in the

Speaker 1:     00:50:13   past, in the present, if they have the right numbers. We know we've talked about this in the podcast, but there was an instance in the 14, hundreds and France were wolves killed 40 people in France. It's just a matter of them reaching the right numbers. World War Two, there was an instance where the Germans and the Russians had a ceasefire because so many of their troops were getting killed by wolves. They united together take out a giant super pack of wolves in Russia because you know, there was hundreds of wolves that were just slaughtering soldiers. What was. They're dangerous. They're. They're very tricky animals. Just we eradicated them to very low numbers and then when the numbers start to build up again, they start getting more and more dangerous again.

Speaker 3:     00:50:55   But I've seen this myself. We spend a summers on a remote island in British Columbia, Cortez Island BC, and about 10 years ago the wolves came back. They swam from other islands and at first most people are social liberal kind of people and so it was great wildlife returns, et Cetera. Um, but these rules became increasingly bold and our family and some land up there. We have a forest, we don't have a house, we just have forest land and my sons without on our land, they'd been sleeping out when a big wolf suddenly appeared and looked very, very threatening and they'd been told, don't run if you see a wolf. So they, they stood there and they faced it and then it's will sort of puffed up. It's fair in charged them and it stopped a few yards away and they backed off slowly. They ran when they got around the corner.

Speaker 3:     00:51:49   Um, but this was clearly threatening, very, very scary. Then they started eating people's dogs. Um, and there's nothing, I've never seen a faster transition from, uh, someone who is a kind of wolf, loving liberal, won't say dark, cause heat, Heaton. They wanted the guys with guns to come out and teach these wolves that lesson. Yeah. And they did, some of them were shot and know they're much more frightened of people. They keep their distance. They're still there. But, um, if they, if there hadn't been a pushback from the people on the island, they would have got increasingly bold.

Speaker 1:     00:52:24   Yeah, there's an issue that's going on right now where people are resisting the idea of hunting walls because they've reintroduced wolves, a lot of the western United States. And uh, in, in some places they've reached very large numbers, thousands of walls and Idaho and a couple of these areas where they've decimated elk and moose, moose populations or elk and deer populations rather. And uh, you know, there's a lot of people that are animal rights folks that aren't there. They're not there. And they resist it very strongly. Like the idea of killing wolves as barbaric and evil. But to the folks that lived there, they're like, no, we love animals, but you have to deal with this. You've got a real problem here. Especially when they formed large packs, they get very dangerous in Russia. They had these super packs of wolves in Siberia that we're taking out horses. They were showing up 100 wolfs at a time. They were showing up these horse stables and slaughtering a horse. And you know, there's not much you can do about a hundred walls.

Speaker 3:     00:53:18   No. Well, given all this background, I think that's so fascinating for young children, especially urban, young children who've actually never seen. They would never see a wolf your life or any other scary animal. These are the things that hold their nightmares. And I think this is part of a kind of collective memory. Um, I mean the more realistic dangerous for young children being run over by cars,

Speaker 1:     00:53:42   a sexual Predator or sexual predators people. But that's not what their dreams are. It may be what their parents nightmares are about, but not the children themselves. So there was a television show in America that are hosted called fear factor. And it was a game show. They had to do these stunts and different stents had different things they have to do. One of the things that I found incredibly fascinating with, some people have irrational fears about certain animals, whether it's spiders, snakes, a Arachnophobia phobia, and those, those fears were undeniable and they weren't just like, people are nervous of heights, like I'm nervous of heights. I look over the side of a building or woo, but it's not an irrational fear. It's a. it's a normal natural fear of I don't want to fall, but there are some people you would show them a snake and they would.

Speaker 1:     00:54:28   They would black out, they couldn't stay conscious. They would, they would hyperventilate and they would faint. And I couldn't believe they were normal folks. When I would talk to them, there would be nothing that would indicate in any way that they were psychologically deranged or there was something missing in their, you know, whatever developmental period that they'd gone through, something got screwed up and they're just missing a giant chunk of what makes a person a normal person. No, they seem completely normal. But you show them a spider and they would, and I always wondered like what is is that maybe some someone down the line in their history was bitten by a spider, someone down the line was poisoned by a snake and survived or they saw someone poisoned by a snake. I mean, whatever it is, it's real and it's a. These are real psychological issues that people have to deal with Arachnephobia in a video phobia in, in, in particular, they're very strong.

Speaker 3:     00:55:25   Yes. Well, I, I think these could easily be inherited fairview's. I mean it's well known in animals that you can have instinctive fear and of course it makes sense for animals. You probably know those experiments they do with day old chicks or with ducklings and you have the mountain, an enclosure doors and then they do these experiments. They have cardboard cutouts and with the silhouettes of birds and you pull them across on wires and if you pull across things with the silhouette of a hawk, these, these ducklings just freeze. You know, the fear response is to just freeze. They freeze it. Whereas if you pull across something looks like silhouette of a pigeon or a red wing, black work bad or something, um, they don't. Um, so they have an inherited fear of things that could in fact be dangerous and it's perfectly in terms of evolution. Makes perfect sense. See why that would work. These baby ducklings don't have time to learn which birds are harmful and which are not. But an instinctive response of fear to something that is actually scary. It may sometimes lead them to respond something that isn't like a cardboard cutout, but, um, it's, I think these things make complete sense biologically. Logically.

Speaker 1:     00:56:43   Yeah, it does make sense if you stop and think about it, if you really take into consideration all the things you have to learn to survive as any animal, as a, just this idea that these mice would learn somehow or another through their, their parents to avoid that, that certain smell, that smell was associated with electrical shock. It only makes sense that somehow or another biological life would transmit information in as many ways as possible. Your idea is so fascinating because you're not even talking about biological life transferring information through genetics. You're talking about it through some unseen force that has yet to be defined and that's when things get really squirrely and is that when you. That's must be when you experience the most resistance to these ideas because the resistance of these ideas, I'm sure before they proposed this idea that genetics or that these mice with somehow or another to inherit the fear of this smell from their parents. That was probably not very well received before it was proven, but then it was proven so now it's sort of has to be accepted and has to be taken into consideration, but your idea is still very fringe.

Speaker 3:     00:57:59   Oh yes. It's. It's the interesting thing is you see the response. I get this from, from some scientists who is actually extremely emotional and irrational. When my first book, a new science of life came out, there was a very famous editorial in nature of the leading science magazine a few months after the book appeared to start with. Nature ignored it, but then a lot of people got interest. I was doing programs on the radio in Britain, there was an article editorial in the Guardian saying, what's an interesting idea? And so a lot of serious discussion going on, New Scientist magazine launched a competition for the best ideas for experiments to test morphic resonance and, um, and it was beginning to be widely discussed, the editor of nature, who was a reaction refigure in silence. So, you know, old style materialist mechanistic, a hardcore scientist wrote a famous editorial called a book for burning on the front page of nature. I'm comparing my book unfavorably with Mine Kampf Hitler's book, saying that this was a profoundly dangerous book. And he said this is the best candidate for burning. There has been for many years and it was completely irrational. This attack on my book it emotional, irrational polemical.

Speaker 3:     00:59:25   He didn't do it as a joke. Um, and this of course produced a backlash because quite a few scientists thought this was the wrong way to respond to a scientific hypothesis. Um, so a lot of letters in nature for months afterwards were backing me up and saying, you know, this is something that should be seriously discussed, not simply denounced. Um, but the fact is that this started a kind of controversy which has been going on ever since. Um, but until the year 2000, most biologists thought genes did everything. No, I'm the epigenetic thing has taken over in the missing heritability problem. There's much more openness than the was because it's clear we haven't figured it all out. Interestingly, Charles Darwin, um, was not a neo Darwinian Neo Darwinian evolution theory says it's all done by the genes. Evolution is just about random mutation and natural selection of gene frequencies.

Speaker 3:     01:00:29   This is the basis of Richard Dawkins work. For example, his book, the selfish gene, is based on that model. Darwin, I'm actually believed in the inheritance of acquired characteristics. He thought that animals could inherit the fears of their fathers and that most of adaptation could actually be passed on to animals and plants to send it from parents. He thought that was how evolution worked. He even proposed that when something had been learned that could be movement at something through the bloodstream that could affect the sperm and the eggs, exactly the kinds of things that's not being considered in this fear of the father's case, so movement through the bloodstream. So if you learn something like say if you touch something, it's electric fence and it shocks you. There's movement through the bloodstream that teaches your sperm. That was what Darwin thought we put. He wrote a book called the variation of animals and plants under domestication is less well known than his most famous book, the origin of species.

Speaker 3:     01:01:33   Um, but in the variation of animals and plants under domestication, he was so convinced that plants and animals could inherit what their parents had learned. He tried to figure out how it might work and his last chapter is called the hypothesis of pathogenesis is the name he gave to his theory that somehow little bits were detached from the brain and went through the blood and affected the sperm. No, that's more or less what people are saying, trying to explain the mice, inheriting the fear of their fathers. That aspect of Darwin's work has been airbrushed out of scientific history, and Darwin also wrote a paper in nature, um, about a dog that he came across that whenever this dog, uh, gotten there to a butcher's shop that the dog was completely terrified. Butchers and Darwin figured out that it's parents, one of his parents had been kicked or badly mistreated by a butcher, and this dog had inherited a phobia of butchers.

Speaker 3:     01:02:33   Now Darwin published that in nature. That shows you how very different Darwin's ideas on evolution were from his 20th century successors. And the reason that modern evolutionary theory is called near Darwinism is to distinguish it from Darwinism, which included the inheritance of habits. I'm very similar to what I'm saying. What I'm saying in terms of the inheritance of habits through morphic resonance is actually really close to what Darwin himself said. Um, but it's not what neo Darwinians say because they've tried to say all inheritances in jeans and you can't have these other things. But no, they'll have to change their tune. Because as I say in the last few years, epigenetic inheritance, the inheritance of acquired characteristics is back in fashion.

Speaker 1:     01:03:20   Well, there's many people that haven't studied Darwin's ideas at all that aren't familiar with the amount of resistance that Darwin received when he was proposing these ideas, like these weren't accepted ideas at all. In fact, the majority of scientists at the time were, uh, they were more of a Christian faith weren't thing.

Speaker 3:     01:03:39   Yes, but it was, the response to Darwin was particularly interesting. You see, because many, many Christians in England, um, after being surprised by his ideas and actually said, well, that's fine if God's the creator of life and why not, can't God, we're a from evolution, create life that can evolve by Andrea. It's own steam. And his ideas were quite rapidly accepted by the Roman Catholic and Anglican Episcopal churches and the methodist and so on. Um, this fundamentalist creationist thing is a peculiar American phenomenon. It didn't originate until the 20th century and it was started in America and it's virtually unknown in Britain. Um, I'm actually a practicing Christian. I'm an Anglican and I never meet creationists in England. I've never heard anyone with what exactly is an Anglican Church of England. The Church of England is the, it's sort of halfway between Protestant and Catholic. What happened in England under King Henry the eighth and the 16th century was that he nationalized the church and he said, okay, the pope's not head of the church anymore.

Speaker 3:     01:04:55   I am and I'm the priest can, Mary will have services in English and bishops can be married. And um, so, but the services remain much the same. And the Church of England, if you go to Anglican services, very like a Roman Catholic service, except that we have married priests, we have women bishops, women, women, priests, outrageous, outrageous from a Catholic point of view. Um, but, uh, anyway, the Church of England is so, so it's, it's, it's never had the sort of extreme protestant doctrines like southern baptists and so on. Um, it's, it's, it's very similar to the Catholic church. It's now one of the most liberal churches. Um, but Anglicans on the whole had no problem with evolution. They still don't. I've just been doing a workshop last weekend at the Allen Institute in big Sur, which I was co leading with the Bishop of California, who's Cathedral is Grace Cathedral in San Francisco, a very beautiful cathedral on Nob Hill.

Speaker 3:     01:06:01   We were discussing the kinds of things you and I are discussing. He was completely open to all this. There was absolutely no problem discussing this with an Anglican Episcopalian bishop. It's a very far cry from what many people's image of Christians as opposing evolution, the general view that many Christians have. An I'm one, um, is that the evolution of nature of, if there's a creative part in nature, it may be God given in the first place, but what God did was to, in, in nature with a part create new forms of life that there's a kind of intelligent creativity in nature. You don't have to have a kind of intelligent designing engineer outside nature tinkering with the machinery and manipulating genes as the intelligent design people think. Um, and uh, you don't have to deny evolution all together to say God's involved in nature in some way.

Speaker 3:     01:07:01   It's perfectly possible to have a view where God is in nature and work through nature, and there's a creativity in nature which doesn't require the universe to have been created in 6,000, 6,000 years ago, that completely accept the evolutionary history of the universe and cosmology and an evolution. Um, and just say, well, if there's a god, then that's the way that God works through this evolutionary process and through the creativity of evolution. So, uh, the fundamentalist Christians and the new Earth Christians at that, that's a uniquely American thing. Yes. I mean, I do have followers, a few followers in Britain, but day they take their lead entirely from America and they've got a new batch of converts their point of view in the Islamic world. Creationism inspired by American creationist is big in Turkey in many other Arab countries and stuff. Um, but it's a peculiarly American phenomenon.

Speaker 3:     01:07:56   We know how it all came about in America, right? Where, where it really took off. Well, it became a part of the political system. The Reagan administration, they started recruiting the radical Christians and that became a part of his electoral base. Yes. It's a very, very interesting history. It had always been, for most foreigners, American politics is completely impossible to understand. It's impossible to understand how people can be so polarized and so extreme in their views. And I read a book recently which made it much clearer to me. It's called the sword of the Lord. It's written by a guy called Andrew himes who was raised southern baptist. Seven of his cousins are southern Baptist ministers. His father, his grandfa ther, his grandfa ther who was called rice, was one of the inventors of American fundamentalism and it's a fascinating historical study of this phenomenon and why they were like that. And um, it made a lot more sense to me. I mean, it's still a very bizarre and very American.

Speaker 1:     01:08:56   Yeah, we're, we're very weird. Were hard to understand. Even for us, we, you know, everyone's constantly trying to refocus our political system or sort of re redefine it, calm it down, reach more. I mean, everyone's looking for a more moderate conservative or someone who is more conservative, moderate, you know, we're always looking for someone who meets the bridge, someone to join the two sides. So we don't have these radical polarizing op opposing forces, the left and the right, it's just, it seems so childish.

Speaker 3:     01:09:29   But what this book made and what was, for me, a huge revelation was that how all of this is rooted in the American civil war and there's a sense in which in some people's minds, the civil war's still going on. It's just that the sides of switched in the civil war, the south was Democrat, you're the slave owning silence. They have political party after the civil war was the Democrats and the Republicans, the liberals who wanted to free the slaves. And one of the most interesting switches that's happened is, is this switch. So now it's gone the other way around. The Democrats and other liberals and stuff. And uh, and the Republicans have become the more right wing forces and powerful in the south, which was exactly the opposite. Very bizarre. So what this book does is trace the history of this fascinating movement. But what's so interesting is it in the civil war, both sides were using biblical texts to justify their position.

Speaker 3:     01:10:25   But the, the, the, the southern Baptists and the religious people in the south actually had a much stronger biblical basis for slavery because the Bible's full of slaves. The Old Testament's full of slaves, the Israelites were slaves themselves. They owned slaves in the New Testament. Everyone owned slaves. It was taken for granted. There were no abolitionists in the Bible. So if you base your faith on the Bible, you can make a much stronger case for, for slavery than you can for abolitionism and so, but you have to take the Bible is literally true. And that gave a strong incentive for people in the south to make the Bible literally true. Because you could justify slavery much better than if you interpret it in a liberal way saying, well actually the spirit of Jesus was to liberate people from bondage. They say, okay, as well as the text.

Speaker 3:     01:11:14   Jesus doesn't say anything about liberating slaves. So fundamentalism gave a kind of impetus to this and, and, and it was very, very fascinating to see how that played out because on both sides in the civil war, they were both invoking the Bible that both sides were Protestant. Both sites were, had ministers preaching to inspire the troops and get them to fight. And um, after the civil war, the way in which this tradition of fundamentalism that had developed in the American south justify slavery and gave a kind of ready made way to use biblical texts to argue against all sorts of other things including evolutionary theory. Whereas in Europe, in the traditional Catholic and, and, and, and in the more liberal Protestant churches, people hadn't taken the view. The Bible is the literal truth. They taken the view that the Bible is a guide to what might happen.

Speaker 3:     01:12:11   That a lot of its meaning is allegorical or symbolic, but the kinds of so called liberal interpretation of the Bible goes back to the second century. A D or something. It's, it's, it's been the mainstream view for a long time. Your scientist, what, what leads you to be a practicing Christian as a scientist? But I spent years as an atheist. I mean, when I was educated as a scientist, part of the package deal is acs. You know, I grew up with all the standard time is 14. I was at a religious boarding school, a Christian boarding school. I was the only boy in my year who refused to get confirmed because even at 14 identified as an atheist. Um, and I thought science means science and reason, religion and superstition of things that the past two scientists at the vanguard of human progress, all that kind of thing.

Speaker 3:     01:13:06   I believe that. But what made me begin to doubt it was I began to doubt that this was the right way forward in science. Um, I began to think that this mechanistic molecular approach to treating animals and plants as just machines, uh, was an inadequate view of life. I'd gone into biology because I was fascinated by animals and plants. I kept lots of pets as a child. My father was a herbalist. I collected plants and he taught me about plants. He had a microscope, love oratory and cyber source of really got into science as a child. Um, and uh, when I started studying science at school and university, the first thing we did with living organisms, organisms was to kill them and grind them up and then look at the enzymes in the liver or whatever. Um, it became clear to me, we've not really studying life.

Speaker 3:     01:13:59   We were studying death. Um, and when I was a child I kept homing pigeons and I was fascinated with how do they find their home. I asked everybody I knew, man, who kept homing pigeons. It was a popular sport in Britain. It still is. Um, I had some myself and I used to put them in a box and cyclist fun as I could on my bicycle and released them and then cycle home and they always got home before I did a. However far I took them out. So this completely intrigued me and I thought, we're never going to understand this by just grinding up their livers or looking at their genes. So I began to doubt the mechanistic world view. Um, then, um, I encountered psychedelics and that was a huge change, I mean nothing in my scientific education and prepared me for the kind of mind opening effects of LSD and this was in the seventies, early seventies.

Speaker 3:     01:14:58   Um, and um, you know, I'd studied nerve impulses and hormones and that kind of thing, which is what we got in a science course at Cambridge about the brain and you know, I knew about the international youth, the brain and nerve impulses, but these visionary experiences that psychedelics opened up showed me there was far more to the mind and indeed far more to reality than there's very, very limited model. Then I got interested in meditation because I thought, well, it'd be good to be able to explore the mind without drugs. I mean I'm not anti psychedelic tour, but it'd be good to have different methods, not just drugs. And then I took up transcendental meditation and Yoga and then I got a job in India. I lived in India for seven years and when I was in India I was really into yoga and meditation.

Speaker 3:     01:15:51   And, and at first I thought, this is just changing my brain physiology, you don't need to believe there's a god out there or any thing mysterious out there. It's just inside the body, the chemicals of the brain, the yoga and meditation affect blood flow, et cetera. So I saw it in rather materialistic way, but then I got more and more interest in Hindu philosophy, in Hindu ideas, the idea that there's a greater consciousness within which our consciousness is embedded through something, through some psychedelic experiences. We Ca, we contact other realms of consciousness that aren't just inside our brains through meditation and through prayer that one can actually contact other forms of consciousness bigger than our own. I did all that within a kind of Hindu context. And then I had a Sufi teacher in India as well, so I did sort of Islamic mysticism for awhile.

Speaker 3:     01:16:45   But after doing this for several years, I found that actually some of it didn't make sense to me. The part that doesn't, didn't make sense to me. Well, the Islamic part to be a Sufi in India, basically you had to be a Muslim and I didn't really want to get into being a Muslim and sort of fasting in Ramadan and all that to be and Hindus. They're basic worldview walls and for most of them still is the idea that we're just trapped in a world where things go on and on. Rebirth and cycles of life and death and we're trapped in this world of suffering and delusion and the way out is through a kind of spiritual vertical takeoff which you do individually through meditation. You can liberate yourself from reincarnation and delusion and so forth into absorption in the one and the absolute. But it's an individual vertical takeoff.

Speaker 3:     01:17:44   And I was working in an agricultural institute, the main International Institute in India for trying to improve crops for poor farmers. And sometimes my Indian colleagues would say to me after work, we always say, why do you do this? And I'd say, because you know, I want to help these poor people and you know, they haven't got enough to eat it. Be Great. If they had better farming methods. And improve for artists and science can help, and I believe in trying to apply my knowledge to help these people. And he said, it is none of your business. It, they are poor. If they are suffering, it is that cardamom. It is not your business. It is their problem, not your problem. Your problem is to liberate yourself from this world of illusion. So then I realized actually they have a completely different view that it's the poor suffering because in a sense they deserve to suffer because of what they've done in past lives.

Speaker 3:     01:18:39   Nothing I can do about it. Then I realized actually I do care about other people. I do think that a spiritual life is not just about individual liberation. It's to do with collective things, is to do it affects community. And how can other people be helped? Unless I argued with my Hindu friends. I realized the reason I was saying this is because I'm so deeply embedded in the Christian tradition. Even secular humanism is a kind of secularized Christianity because it's about helping others. Uh, that actually, um, I was much more Christian than I actually had ever admitted. So I was confirmed in the Church of south India and I then found a fantastic ashram where I lived for two years, father bede griffiths, who is an English Benedictine now to Christian Ashram in south India, which was exactly to my taste. It was very simple. We did yoga, we did meditation.

Speaker 3:     01:19:34   Um, we, uh, we had Christian services and we sang Indian chants and curtains and things. It didn't try and deny any of this. And when I first went there, we started the mass with the gaietry mantra, which is a Hindu mantra, asking the sun to bless our meditation, the divine splendor of the sun to illuminate our meditation. So I said to father bede when I first went there, now how can you have the gaietry mantra at the beginning of a Catholic service? And he said, precisely because it's Catholic, he said Catholic means universal. If it excludes anything, which is a path to God, then it's just sectarian. The word Catholic means universal. Yes. That's what he's fascinating. Yes. So, um, uh, so I found a way of being Christian which didn't Deny Yoga, meditation, Buddhism, my wife has a practicing Tibetan Buddhist, she follows us. I'll Chen tradition in Tibetan Buddhism.

Speaker 3:     01:20:41   So I found a way of reconnecting with the Christian tradition which didn't violate my sense of reason. It didn't conflict with the kind of science that I'm interested in, but I found it liberating to reconnect. And so when I went back to England from India, um, I was able to go to those great cathedrals that we have in England. Belt in the middle ages is fantastic buildings, stained glass, wonderful music organs playing amazing choirs, singing the most beautiful music and, and feel that this is not just beautiful but meaningful and as a, as a path to God which had not seen before.

Speaker 1:     01:21:19   That's fascinating. So in India, the concept of Karma being that someone has done something in their past life that's led them to where they are right now, that boy that seems real convenient for someone passing by homeless people or someone who's poor or suffering. It's almost like the numbers of people that they have in India. Because the numbers are so great, a billion people. How much bigger is India than in North America?

Speaker 3:     01:21:50   Oh, the size of the land. As much smaller. The population is almost a billion. How much smaller is the size of the land? I don't know, but it's crazy.

Speaker 1:     01:22:02   I wonder if that came about as just a way of mitigating the pressure of helping people. Like just the idea of Karma. You can't help that guy. That's his problem. You gotta do it yourself. Just the sheer numbers.

Speaker 3:     01:22:16   Like what I do. I mean at the time the British were ruling India. There are only about 200 million and when I was born the robot to 50 million when you were born. I was born in 1942. They did a lot of huge, huge increase increase. Wow. Anyway, the thing is about the convenience. The Karma thing in India uses. It is convenient. For for centuries India's had a caste system. The untouchables are treated like dirt. I mean they're considered to be polluting and dirty. Even if the shadow of an untouchable fell on the brahmins house, this person could be punished very various severity and there was no move within India until the 19th century to reform that. What happened with Christian missionaries went there. They were nice to untouchables and to lower costs and, and it gave them food, education, healthcare, et cetera. And some of them became Christians.

Speaker 3:     01:23:14   I mean, why not? If you're at the bottom of the pile, you've not got anything to lose and you've got a lot to gain by becoming a Christian. So Hindu reformers felt that they had contractors and so things like the Ramakrishna mission and Sri Aurobindo and various Hindu philosophers and Gandy himself, uh, who was a big influence in India, assimilated many of these ideas from Christianity and said, look, we've got to reform hinduism. And they created a new kind of Hindu attitude, much influenced by Christianity. And so there are no Indian movements to try and help the poor and no provide health care for the sick and that kind of thing. But that's not been part of their traditional way of doing things. And it came about under Western influence.

Speaker 1:     01:23:58   That's really fascinating. So your desire to sort of help help these people, help them grow more food and help help them live better lives is what led you to become a Christian. You realize that these are Christian ideas?

Speaker 3:     01:24:12   Yes. That they are Christian. They're deeply embedded in our culture. Even for secular humanists, you see St Louis humanness, so usually atheists who believe in a philosophy of equal rights, equal opportunities in helping the poor and the sick education for those who need know for, for, for everyone. And um, uplifting people who are suffering, helping third world countries have running water and all that kind of thing. Well, these are the things that Christian missionaries have done as well, but you don't have to be a Christian to believe in those things, but the fact that they are so deeply embedded in our culture, uh, in our secular culture is because of the influence historically influence of Christianity. So secular humanists are basically people who still have Christian ethics, but without a belief in God. But that ethical system doesn't just come about automatically. A much more default mode is to say, you know, the strong miters, right, the, you know, the strongest guy gets the girls and, and you know, runs a kind of theme and then conquer people and have slaves. That's how humanities worked for much of human history.

Speaker 1:     01:25:21   Yeah. Yeah. It, most certainly has. So this, it sounds like you found a very cool sect of Christianity while you were in India. I mean, that sounds very unique that you were doing yoga and meditation and then these Indian chants all along with this concept of Christianity being like the, the generosity and the helping your brothers and sisters along with that seems to be like that. That must have been very convenient to find that sect of Christianity while you were sort of exploring these ideas.

Speaker 3:     01:25:55   It wasn't even the sect. Griffis was a benedictine monk and he was a Roman Catholic. Now it's true that some people in the Catholic Church didn't approve of what he was doing, but, but, uh, so it was really just him. It was well here, Amanda Group of other people. I mean, there was a whole movement in, in India of Catholics too. It was called inculturation. It was the second Vatican council in the 19 sixties, uh, said that what people should do in the Catholic church is put the Christian faith into the terms of that culture. So in India, Catholics who have been converted by Catholic missionaries from Ireland and places, um, bought pairs of shoes so he can put them on to go to church on Sundays because the mission is dressed in western clothes and wore shoes in church. These Indians would never wear shoes and a temple or a mosque or even in the house, but they will choose in church because that's what the Catholic missionaries wall, that kind of thing is ridiculous.

Speaker 3:     01:26:53   And so the simplest level, the incarceration movement, we say, well, it's the tradition of injuries. Take your shoes off in homes and in temples, in marks. So you take them off in churches tune. And it was the tradition of Holy Men and women in Nto to be vegetarian. Whereas Catholics and Protestants, they're all eating lots of beef and stuff because that's what American and British missionaries at. Um, and so they said, no, it's much more natural to be vegetarian. You don't have to be, but it's more natural. So this idea of yoga is a way of learning how to brea the and to challenge and to be more healthy. Why shouldn't Indian Christians do yoga? Right? So this is part of a movement. Father Bede was part of a wider movement. The last two popes had been rather reactionary and you've tried to roll back that movement, but there are still people in India, in South America and so on who are following this Vatican second Vatican Council reform movement, or the new pope is fairly unique.

Speaker 3:     01:27:52   His name, he seems to be a or a much less polarizing figure. He seems to be much more generous, much more open minded to the idea of homosexuality to a lot of the things that have been criticized in the past. And he also like he's showing the ideas of monetary wealth. He doesn't have that crazy thrown anymore. He has a reasonable chair. He's a, he's a unique guy. I think it's partly because he comes from South America, you see and do this kind of radical Catholic movement. The Second Vatican Council Liberation Theology, which was about the church should be, they're not serve the rich but to help the poor. And this became a huge movement in South America. Um, but uh, the, the previous Pope John Paul, the second was against it because he, they were teaming up with communists and people who are also trying to help the poor for secular reasons and political reasons, not for Christian reasons. So he said this is wrong because it communistic, but actually that movement, there's this radical Catholic movements had a huge influence in South America. And I think the present pope is somebody who's come out

Speaker 1:     01:29:02   of that world who's been very much influenced by it. It's so problematic though. The suppressing his sexuality like that. The number one thing that people associate Catholicism width is sexual assault is sexually molesting children. That's like a huge aspect. I grew up a Catholic. I was only in, I was a practicing Catholic when I was very young. I went to a Catholic school in New Jersey for first grade and it was a very bad schools, like really dark and suppressing, just very nasty and mean, and the nuns were just horrific people and essentially shied me away from all religion at a very young age before then. Yeah, it was terrible. It was terrible. But I have other friends that were also raised Catholic that literally had to fight off the priests sexual attempts and that this is like a standard thing. If it's a joke, it's an on running joke in America about priests being sexual predators.

Speaker 1:     01:30:02   It's a constant thing. Um, that, that seems to me like one of the number one issues with that particular brand of religion. It's like this idea that you're gonna take what is essentially just a natural part of being a human being. You're not doing anything with the reproductive cycle. You're just telling them to ignore it. You have this consistent, constant bodily function. There's your body's reproducing fluids on a regular basis and you living backed up all the time. And also you're not experiencing any romantic interaction with human beings. No. No affection, no sexual affection, no nothing, no, you're missing out on a huge part of what it is to be a person. And these people grow up and they live cradle to the grave in this sort of weird non developed state. You know, they're not like the rest of the people. They can barely even understand.

Speaker 1:     01:31:00   Like I had a friend that went to marriage counseling with a Catholic priest. I'm my. That's hilarious. That's like going to Hitler and, uh, asking how to have world peace and maybe it doesn't make any sense. Like, what do you, how are you going to a guy who not only does not have any sex, has never had a relationship but is drunk all the time. He had gin blossoms all over his face and kids run away from them because they're afraid it's going to touch them and you're going to go to that guy and he's going to give you marriage advice. I agree. I think it's a terrible thing and I mean there are a lot of good priests who don't do this. And I met quite a few windows in India and I have reverend Catholic priests whose friends and so I think it's a minority. It may have been quite a big minority in Ireland and in some countries, but I think it was a, some people are called to a celibate life and, and I think that's fine for people to get become monks or nuns if that's what they're called to. But for regular priests, I think it's a serious mistake. And I'm

Speaker 3:     01:32:01   in the Church of England ever since 15, 40 or something and in the process and churches in Europe, priests have been able to marry and rabbis Mary in Judaism and I think is much, much healthier to have priests as regular guys. We love lives and kids and things. So I think that side of Catholicism is a serious mistake and I think they should do it. Sooner or later it'll have to be reformed because repression of sexuality leads to all these extremely unhealthy. A negative consequences. No, I agree with you about it. But you know, there are reform movements within Catholicism and uh, they're in America. They're a breakaway Catholic. Churches with women priests for example, there's one in Santa Barbara and of course it's in Santa Barbara, freaks up. They're loaded. So, um, this, um, anyway, I agree with you. I think that's a very negative thing, but you see, I think that to, to reject the entire, some people reject the entire world of religion because of personal bad experiences with one particular brand.

Speaker 3:     01:33:09   I think it's rather like throwing out the baby with the bath water. It would be like saying I'm against science because it gave us gas that kittle used to kill people and it gave us the atomic bomb that killed people in Hiroshima. So I'm against science. I mean science, everything, human, uh, there are really bad things that have been done by humans in the name of almost anything you care to mention. Nationalism, science, religion, politics, ideology. So when you decided to join this particular group of Christians and become a Christian, officially identify, was there resistance from your colleagues? Reserve resistance from other scientists? Like how old were you at the time? Oh, I was 33, something like that. Um, well, not among. I was working in India at the time. There's hardly any acs in India. There's a few, but among my scientific colleagues, I was working with Indian scientists.

Speaker 3:     01:34:09   Almost all Indians are Hindu, Hindu or Muslim, you know, when they went home from work, they'd be regular Hindus and Muslims there. Very few of them were atheists. So I'm among my Indian colleagues. Being a practicing Christian when I came from a Christian family in a Christian country seemed totally normal. No one thought that was at all weird or strange when I got back to England. I'm among many of my scientific friends. Um, they thought this was completely weird and um, and just couldn't understand it because they assume that any Christian believes the world's made in 6,000 years ago and God intervenes through suspending the laws of nature in miracles that are totally incredible and they don't believe in the kind of God I don't believe in. Um, but they never actually, very few ever asked what do you actually think or believe? They just sort of treated it as best as some kind of personal eccentricity or mental feebleness or something. Um, and while retaining, rather than narrow dogmatically atheist view, I lot of my friends are atheists or agnostics, but the problem I have with atheists and materialists is that most of them are much more dogmatic than the people I know within the religious world.

Speaker 1:     01:35:28   Well, I have a problem with anybody that's sure. So do I. Yes. Uh, when, when I speak to some atheists, I have this issue where they're aggressively atheist, you know, where you know, uh, I've, I've talked to people who the, they're not just atheist, but they get upset at anyone who's not. And my question to them is always like, have you ever had a psychedelic experience? Whenever I speak with someone who's aggressively atheists, and if they say no, I'm like, well, what are you waiting for? Because if you, if you really want to question your, your whole idea of reality, there's no better method than a breakthrough psychedelic experience. If you have a breakthrough psychedelic experience and you're like, that was nothing, well then you're a unique person because everybody I've ever met that has a breakthrough psychedelic experience, like a dmt trip. They have to step back and go, okay, I didn't even know that was possible.

Speaker 1:     01:36:25   I've lived my whole life with this one worldview that, well, I see these people that are religious and it seems to me that they're following this ridiculous ideology is based on some ancient information that people wrote down on animal skins. It's all preposterous and what they're doing is they're just a bunch of scared children that are afraid of the light and what I'm doing is basing my life on science and rational thinking and logic, but then you have a psychedelic trip and he's like, there's nothing rational about that. There's nothing logical about that and how's that so close? It's so nearby. It's like someone telling you a dmt trip is like someone telling you, Hey, I want to show you something. Let's go into this room real quick, and you opened that door and there's a new universe. They're a completely different universe that's filled with life.

Speaker 1:     01:37:10   It's fractal. It's never ending and it occupies a very small space, but yet it's infinite and it's filled with conscious beings that can see through you. Recognize all your bullshit. Recognize all your insecurities and all your incorrect thinking and ego and and, and they try to and then you shut the door and you go back to regular life and you're like, what the fuck is that room? That room? That's the God room. It's right there. Like if you don't go into that experience like your whole, like I think we live our lives based on. We sort of calculate our worldview based on the experiences that we've accumulated, what we've learned from these experiences and what we've learned from other people's experiences, what we've read, what we've seen in documentaries and films, but when you have a really intense psychedelic experience particularly, and then for some people yoga and meditation, some people are able to achieve some pretty deep states, but the psychedelic experience in particular is.

Speaker 1:     01:38:12   It's shocking because it's so easy to get to. It's just right there. Four hits of the DMT and boom blast off and then 15 minutes later you're left with this new experience that you have to assimilate and figure out a way to make sense of it. The atheist and I talked to that are like super aggressive. They're just like religious people, people and a lot of ways it's kind of scientific fundamentalism and it's. It's also morphing now know if you're aware of this. In America it's morphing, there's atheism and then there's an even more aggressive group called atheism plus. Oh, I didn't know about that. Yeah, and what they're doing is they're attaching a bunch of moral and ethical values to religion essentially creating almost like another religion and I think with good intentions, I think a lot of his good intentions a lot of is based on.

Speaker 1:     01:39:03   A lot of it is based on feminism. A lot of is based on the idea of avoiding harassment, avoiding sexual harassment, avoiding like that. They their ethics are to completely define what's acceptable behavior like no, no racism, no sexual harassment, no undeniable acceptance of women's rights. Undeniable acceptance of. It's interesting, but then of course once you define that, then you have a aggressive members of that group that are attacking people that disagree with any of their propositions or anyone that supports men's rights. Of course now he hates women and you get a lot of weirdness in that area because they can only be feminism, that can't be men's rights as well, men's rights or toxic, whereas women's rights, once there is a cheat, once they have achieved a totally quality, then there's no need for men's rights because once feminism has been established, which is pretty illogical assumption, especially when you consider like divorce laws.

Speaker 3:     01:40:10   No, I agree with you. No, I couldn't agree more about DMT and, and the, the opening that it can give. I mean I had the great advantage of taking it for the first time with Terence Mckenna and he was, he said, do you want to check this out? Okay. And that's pretty cool. And the resume, by the way, first time you did DMT, Terence Mckenna? Yes. I won't say where or when, because it could be put down on some record somewhere that's probably already there. Don't worry about it. Um, but um, for me it corresponded in many ways with what people talk about near death experiences because I went out through light into a realm of great bliss and beauty. And then I came back and it was like coming back from a million miles away and just coming back into my body and as it were being born again.

Speaker 3:     01:41:06   Um, so it was, it was very much like a death and rebirth experience for me. And, and it was very, very transformative. Um, incidentally, I think, you know, I've been trying to understand this American phenomena with southern baptists. And one of the things that I think is the key to this is that I think when they talk about being born again, originally baptism was just that. I mean now you can get this through dmt in five minutes, but at the time of John The baptist, you get it in five minutes through being drowned. People were lining up on the bank of the Jordan. They go in, he holds them under. If he held him under just long enough, you could actually induce a near death experience. New Life Review at the drowning man sees his life pass before him hold the amount of just long enough. And they'd have a near death experience almost guaranteed. I mean, occasionally they might, he might have done it too long, but that was before litigation. You know, you might've lost.

Speaker 1:     01:42:07   Yeah, good theory actually.

Speaker 3:     01:42:10   Then you see they come back and they said, I've died. I've seen the light. I've been born again. I'm no longer afraid of death. My life has been transformed in five minutes and the baptists were the people who revived baptism by total immersion in the 16th century and probably no in in America. We don't hold them under that long because this is post litigation now, but you know when, when the Baptist first got going, this idea of holding people aren't long enough. All their language is the language that relates to near death experiences and I don't think that to start with baptism by total immersion was just symbolic. I think it was drowning.

Speaker 1:     01:42:50   Wow. That is quite fascinating and it makes sense. If you think about ordeal poisoning or deal poisoning being the substitute for psychedelics in certain cultures where they don't have access to psychedelic plants, they would take essentially a poison that didn't kill you. It got you right to the door where you wish you were dead almost. You were in horrible pain and even in some cultures they use ant venom like those bullet ants, the. They use that for these ritualistic a coming of age rituals, these coming of age rituals where you take people through these intensely painful moments where they almost want to be dead just to end the suffering and then when they come through and the other side, there are a better person because of it. They're more reflective. They're sort of there. They appreciate that. Just the very breath that they're allowed to take. They appreciate the sky seems bluer. The grass seems greener. The life has more vibrancy to it because they've gone through this ordeal. Poison or these toxic venom or what have you. Yes, a right of passage. Almost all rites

Speaker 3:     01:43:51   of passage for adolescents in, in, in traditional cultures involved something like a death and rebirth experience and I think you're right. I think that's what's going on and actually I think that the why the Baptist became so powerful and why for them the conversion experience was so real and why they talk about it so much is that because for many of them it was real. It wasn't just a symbolic thing. It wasn't signing up to some set of beliefs and I think this is the core of all religions is this direct experience of the divine and you know, I think that's what they all come from. They come from experience, not theories. What's quite

Speaker 1:     01:44:27   shocking to that. Jerusalem scholars like may like mainstream scholars now or considering that Moses was probably under the influence of DMT. They believed that the burning Bush, there's, you know, guys are not like psychedelically based at all, was quite probably the Acacia Bush, which was a very rich in dmt plant and that's the whole idea of the burning Bush. He sees God through a burning Bush. I mean, how much clear does it have to be? There's acacia trees all over that. That part of the world. It says very rich plant as far as the content of DMT in it and if you experience that, it's very much like. I mean, I don't know if you're experiencing God, but it seems like it seems very divine when you have a dmt trip.

Speaker 3:     01:45:14   Yes. Well, I mean why not be experiencing God? I mean, it seems unlike. It seems non economical theory to say that this divine bliss as experienced by mystics, that part of the nature of mind is bliss. I mean the Hindu name, one of the names sachit and ended up being knowledge place as in the nature of God. If God's consciousness is kind of blessed consciousness, then if you have this experience that seems like garden is blissful, why have a hypothesis that that some other bliss consciousness that isn't divine, that some kind of duplicate, why not? It'd be the real thing. I think it makes so much more sense. Yeah, totally makes sense. I mean it,

Speaker 1:     01:45:57   it makes as much sense as anything else and these plants are real. I've always wondered if that and many other people speculator as well, if that's the reason why Hindus don't participate in eating cows too because of the psilocybin mushrooms growing on cows on a regular basis and that being for a lot of people believe that basis

Speaker 3:     01:46:16   Soma. I don't know. It's, it's, I'm don't terrence's theory about Strip area and these mushrooms growing on car dung is okay as far as it goes. But in England, for example, the, the magic mushroom, the liberty cap doesn't grow on car dying at grows in sort of meadows and usually no carson if anything, the sheep, but I've seen them. They grow wild in Wales and I've encountered them on location and there's nothing to do with piles of Dung. I mean there's many different environments in which psychoactive mushrooms grow. Some kinds rely on the car done, but I think he rather over emphasize the car dunk.

Speaker 1:     01:46:58   That's fascinating. What do you think was the source of cattle worship like Chuck Tall Oak and all these ancient civilizations that worship cattle and this connection that Mckenna made with, uh, those, those people worshiping the capital because the cattle didn't just provide life and food because they had milk and meat, but also that there was this connection with a psychedelic mushrooms.

Speaker 3:     01:47:22   I take now, I find that a bit far fetched personally in some countries like in England and Oh, there was a whole sweatshop in the cage. There was a whole sweatshop sacred horses too. And um, there, there are many different kinds of sacred animal even in India is not just caused the to sacred elephants are sacred. Ganesh shoes, you know, the elephant God. But elephants are sacred. Even rats are sacred. I'm in India and monkeys, so lots. There's lots of sacred animals. Um, and I think that probably come, I think with the ones that are wild, basically wild like elephants and rats and monkeys. There's probably comes out to shamanic roots, but I think when people started domesticating animals then know, how do you relate to domesticated animals? Are they like slaves or are they the cow is seen by most induces the divine mother, the provider of milk.

Speaker 3:     01:48:19   And do you regard them as sacred or do you just regard them as cogs in a factory farming machine? Well, that's the way they are regarded now in feed lots and so on, in the United States and in Europe. Um, but I think in a religious culture when you domesticate animals, there's a sense in which they take on a religious significance. And, um, you know, for, for the Jewish people, then goats and sheep were the main ones that took on the religious significance. You know, Jesus Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. The Agnes de, um, this is a sacrificial lamb which is a sort of sacred lamb. And so there's a synchronization of sheep in the Judaic Christian, in the Islamic tradition.

Speaker 1:     01:49:03   It completely makes sense that people would worship cows and even horses because they need the horses for transportation. Um, you know, in a lot of cultures they even used horses to stay alive. Like they drank the blood of the horses. That was a big thing with the Mongols. It's one of the reasons why they. They brought like you know each. Each man had many horses that they would carry with them and they would mix it with milk and it would be a way to stay alive. May or may would take the blood of a certain horses, the milk of other ones and all that. Makes Sense. What I've always wondered those, how did they, how did they lose the meaning of Soma? Like how do, how is that such a, an open thing? Open interpretation. I mean what? What happened to if it was such an amazing thing. I mean you read the descriptions of Salma, how fantastic it is and how huge a part of it. It wasn't their culture and their connection to the divine. How did they lose what it means,

Speaker 3:     01:50:03   but I agree. I think it's a mystery and it's seminary increased the Eleusinian mysteries. This cave where they went in these psychedelic rites of passage that Plato and people here. There was a big part of life in ancient Greece. What was that and the, the, the most commentaries ones where people see it as Amnesia, Mascara, the flyer, garrick. I've never found those particularly plausible because whenever I've taken flyer garrick where he wants so twice, all it did was give me a headache and um, it's maybe they had different varieties of it, but I don't know anyone who's had a totally amazing flyer, garrick trip.

Speaker 1:     01:50:39   I've only spoken to people online that have, I've, I've only had it once and I felt the same way. It didn't do anything for me. I, I don't know if it enhanced, but I did it and then we did it for a couple hours and it didn't seem to have any effect. And then we took psilocybin after that and it had a huge effect. It was just a monster trip. And I wonder if it was some sort of a common atory experience. Possibly. But that was another thing that Mckenna speculated about, whether it was variable genetically variable seasonably variable. As far as geographically,

Speaker 3:     01:51:12   yes. And whether it's transformed like reindeer and transformed by the rain and then where they drink the urine of reindeer after the reindeer of eastern yet and stuff. Right. And the laps and people.

Speaker 1:     01:51:25   Well, it's also the, all the different connections to the Siberian shamans and that the whole Christmas thing, the whole connection to Christmas and the Amanita miscarrying mushroom. It's very, very bizarre that elves are connected with this particular mushroom which is connected with Christmas and gifts. And yes, symbiotic relationship to carnivorous trees. Like the whole deal. It is, it's mysterious.

Speaker 3:     01:51:50   But yeah, I've never found that area of speculation particularly satisfying. I mean if, if, if the evidence pointed towards Strip area cubensis or psilocybe semi Lanceolata United Liberty Cap or our native psychedelic mushroom in England, then it might be more convincing. Right. I mean, the fact is we don't know. And it's really a matter of speculation.

Speaker 1:     01:52:14   Yeah. I wonder if it's like, you know, like heirloom tomatoes, you know, you eat an heirloom tomato, they're so delicious. They're fantastic, they're sweet, they're, they, they, they're so rich and dark. Or you can get one of these creepy tomatoes that they grow that live like the last, like a month on a shelf and they're pale and they're hard and they just taste like shit. I mean, there's nothing to them like they. They look different, they taste different. I wonder if that somehow or another happened to the am anita where it lost it's psychedelic properties. Unlikely because never been cultivated

Speaker 3:     01:52:46   and grows in the wild

Speaker 1:     01:52:48   would be maybe just the temperature variations like that. Maybe you have to have it in that incredibly cold environment of Siberia for it to be that it's geographically genetically variable.

Speaker 3:     01:52:58   Oh, what you said makes the most sense to me that it was mixed with something else. It's like Oscar, if you just took one of the components of the brew, if the historical data pointed worlds, this being there, you'd say, okay, this is what it was, but actually neither of the components would work on their own. So it may well have been that it was part of a mixture

Speaker 1:     01:53:18   that does kind of make sense for Salma. Right? Because wasn't so much actually. It was described as some sort of

Speaker 3:     01:53:23   next year, and so it was the Eleusinian mysteries.

Speaker 1:     01:53:27   You just don't know what the Eleusinian mysteries are. Huh? There. Is there any speculation?

Speaker 3:     01:53:31   Oh, Graham Hancock have speculations of course, but I don't know. The ones I've seen would include opium in cannabis as part of the mix. I mean, cannabis was widely known in the ancient world and actual hemp ropes were used for thousands of years. People were growing. Hemp. Opium has been known for an awfully long time. Um, so what else might have been in there? We don't know.

Speaker 1:     01:53:59   Well, that's the other thing too. The, the consumption, the eating of cannabis, uh, eating of Hash has produced incredible psychedelic experiences for people. They've eaten large enough quantities where it's been very mushroom, like

Speaker 3:     01:54:14   much more psychogenic when Easton, and it's traditional to take it by mouth in India as well as to smoke it. I mean, it's a normal thing that the festival of Holy h o n I a major Hindu festival when I was living in India, I was renting a wing of a crumbling palace and hydropower from a family of impoverished rogers. And they were very respectable, or they're impoverished and and on holy. This festival day, the Roger's wife, the Ronnie came to me and she said, Dr Saab, you must take our special drink. She said, this is our special drink for holy and stuff. And I said, what is it? She said, Oh, I will tell you later. She says, she's like the Joey Diaz of India, those two up. So I just drank. This is bang. Then she said, have some more and say, and various stoned with his bang this drink cannabis containing drink. And then everyone's sort of rushing around throwing colored water at each other. But I mean this was a highly respectable, conservative, Brahmin family and this was just part of their traditional way of life and, and in, in, in the, in the drunk form. Wow. In the liquid,

Speaker 1:     01:55:30   the edible form. That's, that's quite amazing. I mean, I, I often wonder how much different our worldview would be if we had those sorts of traditions here in America because that's traditions and just sort of these cultural norms that we accept. They shaped so much of our behavior. They shaped so much of how we view the world and so much of it is just based on momentum. It's just based on what did your grandparents do, what did they teach your parents and what did your parents teach you and what is the collective culture of your neighborhood? Your community?

Speaker 3:     01:56:05   Yes, exactly. One thing that's just occurred to me, well, there's two things I'd like to ask you. Well, one thing, let me ask you something, please does. You know I've done a lot of research on the sense of being stared at and I think that this feeling that almost everyone's experienced feeling, you're being looked at your turn around someone's staring at you or you can stare at someone and make them turn around and this is something which is very widespread in the population. There's been a kind of scientific to bu for years about it because it ought not happen. If your mind is nothing but your brain looking at someone shouldn't effect them because everything is all inside your head. Whereas if when you look at somebody, the image that you're seeing is projected out as I suggested, is that when I look at you now, I don't think you're my imagery view in three dimensions and full color is inside my head.

Speaker 3:     01:56:57   I think it's where you are. I think I'm projecting out my image review. Everything I'm seeing in this room is where it seems to be projected out. My Mind's extended beyond my brain anyway. That is how we experience it. The official theories. It's all inside the head. Um, and because the official theory says this is just a superstition and people can't really tell them they're being looked at the been almost no scientific investigation till I took it up in the 19 eighties and now quite a number of people have done this research on the sense of being stared at to find out if people really can tell when they're being stared out from behind. Um, I've done lots of experiments in schools. Kids are particularly sensitive to this more so than grownups. Really? Yes. And I then to find out, but I thought, well look, I've done the experiments, but who are the professionals?

Speaker 3:     01:57:47   So I, in my research assistant interviewed security guards, store detectives to drug squad at Heathrow, uh, police, uh, and private detectives, you know, have you ever had this experience? Do people know when they're being watched? Almost everyone who watches others for living such, of course they do. And you know, if you're being trained to be a private detective trained how to follow somebody, you don't stare at their back because they're likely to turn around and catch your eye. So anyway, I wrote about this in my book, the sense of being stared at about this research and about its implications for the nature of our minds. But I had recently somebody came to me from a British defense research laboratory and he said to me, they've got very interested in this, uh, in the army because there's some generals that worried that British troops in Afghanistan.

Speaker 3:     01:58:40   And I was so laden down with kit, you know, gps systems. I mean, that whole body is covered with electronic kit. And they found that when they're so top heavy carrying all this kit, they have to look down at the ground all the time to avoid stumbling because it's harder to walk with all this stuff and they can easily be picked off by guerrilla fighters behind rocks with rifles. And so what they said is, do you think we could train people in threat awareness so they could actually become more sensitive now in the martial arts, I know some martial arts do have threat awareness training, so people went blindfolded, have to become more aware of when somebody is looking at and we're going to attack them from behind. So my question to you, since this is your world not mine, is, is how easy do you think it would be to train people in threat awareness to become more sensitive to knowing when they're being looked at?

Speaker 1:     01:59:34   That's very interesting. Um, I have never been a part of any martial art that teaches people threat awareness. What the martial arts that I've been involved in have all been about acquiring very specific skills for hand to hand combat against other trained adversaries. There's a bunch of different types of martial arts that emphasize what you call self defense type martial arts. My issue with those guys and the practices of self defense type martial arts, is that almost everything that they're teaching would only work against a non-trained opponent. Um, they, they have all these ideas. Like if a guy comes at you and throws a punch, you grab his wrist, he do this, you do that. All that stuff only works on someone who doesn't know how to fight. And my thinking is always learn what works on trained killers. Weren't learn things that are undeniable against the most skilled martial artists.

Speaker 1:     02:00:30   Those are the things you want to learn. And through this practice of very, very difficult to pull off techniques, very difficult training, pushing yourself, expanding the boundaries of your, your, your, your willingness to push your body and your mind. That's how you truly learn about yourself. And uh, me and Milton Musashi had this expression that he wrote in the book of five rings that once you understand the way broadly, you will see it in all things in that way. Being in his world was the way of sword fighting and that you would understand this and this most incredible and intense way and you would see the same sort of path of of the the True Path in calligraphy and carpentry and all sorts of expressive art forms and that this is my opinion. What is the great benefit of martial arts? It's the developing of your human potential through this incredibly difficult endeavor and I've always found that these guys who like blindfold and look out for.

Speaker 1:     02:01:35   It's all bullshit. There's a tremendous amount of bullshit in martial arts. It's one of worst. Oh, is it? Much less so now because of the new movement from 1993 on has been the movement of mixed martial arts and that's because of these things called the ultimate fighting championship and mixed martial arts competitions and what mixed martial arts competitions have done is there was always these ideas at different people at death touches and sky could just. He could hit you in a certain place and uses ci and knock you back. All those guys failed miserably in competition. Not a single one was successful. Not One, every single one was beaten down and it just showed there's no mysticism when it comes to martial arts. The true mysticism is the conquering of your fears, the ability to understand how to remain calm during these incredibly stressful moments of competition and through repetition and intelligent development of technique.

Speaker 1:     02:02:33   That's what real martial arts training teaches people and that any divine feeling you get from a true master, you would get from a pianist as well. You would get from a true, a brilliant painter. You know, you've, you've met Alex Grey, right? Yes. Brilliant painter, but you know how that feeling you get when you're around him, he's a master. You don't have any. Like, he has this sense of this like very like, you know, you're in the presence of a very unique person. And I have experienced that same feeling when I've been around martial artists and that same feeling when I've been around, you know, just great minds, great thinkers. There's what you do is you recognize you're recognizing greatness. You're recognizing what Musashi said. You're recognizing someone who understands the way broadly. And, um, I don't, I don't believe in a lot of these ideas of self defense training, you know, I think there's certain techniques that are very effective for soldiers like disarmament techniques, like how to take someone's pistol away, how to, uh, how to defend against a knife attack where it's very technique oriented.

Speaker 1:     02:03:40   A Krav Maga incorporates a lot of those, which is an Israeli martial art that takes a lot of the best aspects of many different martial arts. And they, uh, they train that. Um, there are definitely real techniques involved that have been taught to soldiers and by soldiers when it comes to disarmament, when it comes to how to deal with a hand to hand combat in certain situations. But I think overall, a lot of the quote unquote selfdefence styles are bullshit and a lot of the, uh, you know, we're gonna blindfold. You and people are going to kick you. If I blindfold you, you're going to get fucked up. All right? If I blindfold you, there's not a person alive is gonna. Stop me from putting him in the face. If I blindfold them, you're not going to know what's coming. The only thing that you could help is if you have control of a body. Like if you're blindfolded, you can grapple very well. But I could. I've grappled with my eyes closed before, but the reason being is that if I am holding onto your waist, if I have a hold of you, I know where everything else is just

Speaker 3:     02:04:38   a, a pattern thing. It's a, it's a pattern recognition. I've, I've been in that position so many times that I could. I know where your neck is going to be. I know where your arm's going to be. If I isolate your shoulder, I know where your wrist is going to be. I know how to isolate those joints without having to look at them. So in that sense, you could do some things blindfolded but not striking distance. I think the threat awareness stuff was not so much that you could fight blindfolded, but training people to feel from which direction someone was looking at behind it seems to be plausible. You could train that. Um, but you know, it's not my world. And so really the, I mean this is an issue that if, if they ask my advice on experimental design, but I do for threat awareness is this, I'd have say take a five story building on one of the five stories selected at random, you'd have a, you do it at night, have guys hidden behind in officers that can look at people walking along corridors.

Speaker 3:     02:05:40   You'd have CCTV cameras and people watching them on that floor, but on the other four floors you'd switch off the TV cameras and been able to do that and you'd have somebody walk through each floor of this building and then they'd have to say which one they were being watched in and one out of five if they got it right. You know, lots of times there's a one in five chance of getting it right just by guessing. But if you find results above score above chance, you could then say, well these people are actually detecting when the potential threats and you might be able to train people to get better at it than what you did. Your study, correct me if I'm wrong, you had people sit down and then they. They would. They hit a button when they felt someone looking at them. No.

Speaker 3:     02:06:26   What happened was this. Well, there's two. There's two methods. One, one method I've mainly used is the simplest one that you can do with kids in schools and one person's blind folded with an airline star, blindfold, cut up, peripheral vision. The other person sits behind them and then in random series of trials, the simplest message is tossing a coin, but I have random sheets of instructions in it. You'd look or you don't look, so if it's a look looking trial, the person behind stairs at the back of their neck and thinks about them, if it's not, and then after 10 seconds it doesn't click and so they hear a click or a beep. They know the trials began and within 10 seconds they have to say looking or not looking, are you being looked at or not? Yes or no. It's right or wrong, and then the next trial at random would be looking or not looking and if it's not looking, they look away.

Speaker 3:     02:07:19   And think of something else and people have to guess. We usually do 20 of these or any 10 seconds each, so it doesn't take long and this gives results where most people score above chance, 50 percent chance, but many, if you take an average, it comes to around 55 to 60 percent, so it's not a big effect, but over hundreds of thousands of trials that showed something's going on statistically significant. It's very significant and if you do it through windows, were to eliminate smell or sound or one way mirrors. It still works. And in Amsterdam, this has been running in the Science Museum for 20 years and it's one of the biggest experiments ever conducted. And the interesting hinders. The overall results were extremely positive, highly significant statistically, but what they've shown is what I've already found in my own experience. The most sensitive subjects are children under the age of nine.

Speaker 3:     02:08:13   And I think most of versus when we're older, we go out into the world is crowded streets. Lots of people look at it, we desensitize ourselves, but children are much more sensitive. I wonder if that case, I wonder if really attractive woman would be the worst at it because really attractive women are used to putting on blindfolds and walking past people staring at them all the time. Yes. Well, there is a slight difference in those who've experienced this. More women than men have experienced being stared at and do service and more men than women have experienced turning it others and looking at others, making them turnaround manner. Liras. Yes. So attractive women do have to, as you say, they have, um, they have to learn to avoid meeting people's gaze. Photograph American girl in Italy from 1951. It's a fascinating photograph. It's a famous photograph.

Speaker 3:     02:09:01   This American woman is walking down the street next to these animals, these men that are grabbing their crotch and they're there stare and she has this look on her face. She's not looking at anyone in particular. She's just going straight forward. And I'm like, that woman would be like a perfect candidate. Someone who's like to blocking off all these leering yes. Freaks. They're staring at her. When you, um, was there anyone that you'd ever done that study on that was like really good at it? Like 75 percent? Eighty percent. Oh, 100 percent. Yes. One hundred percent. Yeah. Someone got 100 percent. Yes. And that was my oldest son, Merlin, Merlin. The wizard when Sunday. Merlin? Yes. Ridiculous. He's a scientist. He's a phd at the moment. And in tropical Dr Merlin. Wow. In the younger, my youngest son who's 24 is a musician. It's 100 percent. Yes. When melon was four years old, I did this experiment with him, you know, blindfolds.

Speaker 3:     02:10:00   Him. He's sitting there. I said, look, I'm going to look at you some of the time. The rest of the time. Nice. And each time you hear this click, you have to say if you think you're being looked at, he got it right 100 percent of the time. So I couldn't believe this. He wasn't cheating. I mean he didn't know about cheating. He was four. Four. Wow. And so I did it again, his brilliance, and he said, Daddy, you've done to. Can we do it the other way round? Can you tell when I'm looking at you? So I said, okay, we'll try that. And we did it the other way around and I out of 20 trials I got sorta 11 out of 20. It was above chance, but I was wrong quite lots of time. Then he got the idea, well you can be wrong and I was wrong and sort of changed his mind and after that when they test him, it was still fairly high, 75 percent, but he never got 100 percent again.

Speaker 3:     02:10:51   That's interesting. And what were the numbers like? How many times did you do it? Well the first two times were 20 times 20. So normally I do these trials with 20 trials and most people would get say 11 out of 20 and he was getting $20 definitely. Which is hugely significant to course. And um, anyway, the thing is that young children are very, very sensitive to this. And I hold yours forensics, the younger ones you see, check it out. I've already got my plans for tonight. I'm going to go on the way home and pick up some blindfolds. Yeah, that's, ah, that's brilliant. That's really interesting. The idea that you introduced the possibility of failure and then he was like, oh, and then he doubt crept in. Exactly, and the problem with the kinds of tests side, I do tests on the sense of being stared at telepathy.

Speaker 3:     02:11:42   I've joked doing a lot on telephone telepathy. Can you tell who's calling? I'm the problem with these kinds of experiments is that you have to set them up so that people could be right or wrong and Pete know very few people are right all the time, but as soon as doubt creeps in the mind and fierce people think, oh, maybe I guess one way last time it's statistically I shouldn't be the other way this time. And, and they start, as soon as that kind of thing goes on, people lose it. Boy, that is life in a nutshell, isn't it? Like as soon as you have doubt, your whole world is just a mess and unfortunately these experiments that I do introduce doubt into the vet because I have to do statistical experiments that have incredible to skeptics. So there's a kind of skepticism built into the experiment. I haven't yet found a way of doing this. I'm always. The holy grail would be to find ways of doing these tests where people don't realize that they're being tested and that could be doubt. How could that be done though?

Speaker 3:     02:12:44   Well, I'm thinking of one kind of test that will be incorporated in a video game where say you have to choose between going through one door, another door and one door. You go through it. It's absolutely awful. In the other door you escape and you're onto sort of next stage. You could have it where when people choose it hasn't been decided. You'd have a random event thing that would determine which door you go through after you've made the choice to go through it. This is then called presettlement or pre cognition. It's like knowing the future and so if people were right more often than they were wrong, you'd know because it purely chance it should be 50 slash 50. If some people were coming out 60, 40, you wouldn't say this is a psychological test. You would say, you know, how lucky are you and can you be consistently lucky in this?

Speaker 3:     02:13:40   Um, and it would be more like luck. It would still involve now them to duck because you might start thinking, oh, I'm not very lucky today. Um, but it would be, wouldn't be framed as a, as a, a scientific experiment. It will. We've framed as a way of training your ability to be lucky. Well, hmm. Training your ability to be lucky. Yes. Intuition is a very strange thing and some people believe in it and some people don't. Some people believe that you make good choices. Like you know, you'll, you'll hear people that are successful that are confident and again, Hey, I've always been lucky. I've got great instincts, but that there is something to instincts. There's something to trusting certain folks and not trusting certain folks based on just an immediately the feeling you get when you meet them. Some things just don't seem bright.

Speaker 3:     02:14:26   And I think a lot of it is probably pattern recognition. A lot of it is, you know, I've been around guys like this before. I know what they're about. This guy's just got a little bit of bullshit and um, I gotta get Outta here, you know? Well, I think the intuition just means direct knowing and some of it can be telepathic. Some of it can be unconscious pattern recognition. There's lots of components, but some of them, I think what you could call Paris psychological, you know, feeling the future or picking up things telepathically. Um, and you know, these recent experiments of daryl bem at cornell on feeding the future. I don't know if you've looked into those. Let me just keep an eye on the time. It's 1:00. Okay. Well you have a pocket watch old school look at you with a chain on it.

Speaker 3:     02:15:14   Yes. Wow. I don't like wearing wristwatches. Let me take that out. How do you have connected to your belt or something? Yes. Yes. Savor the trousers is. Wow. Pretty Slick. So where's the park at watch? Well, you know, you need to know the time sometimes. Watches. I don't like being manacled to time. I'm cold. Yeah. You carry a cell phone? No. Oh, you're one of those guys. Yeah. How come? I hate being interrupted. You know, I don't like the phone at home. I don't use phones much. I might use email. That's fine. I can always just shut your phone off. I know, but I'd rather not have it. I do have one because I. I'm doing experiments on cell phones on telephone. Telepathy is my friend Steve was talking about from London. Same thing. Hates, hates having a phone drive. His wife crazy. Yes. Well that's a good reason for not having one.

Speaker 3:     02:16:08   I don't want to be interrupted all the time and if I go for a walk or if I'm working or. So I find it really annoying if the phone rings. I mean anyway, the pocket watch means I can know the time and I need to know I'm going to have to go fairly soon, but not quite yet. Um, where were we to let potential efficacy tests? Um, and intuition sometimes it's Interior Daryl bams experiments. I'm a very simple and it's called feeling the future and does this phenomenon that dean raging at the Institute of noetic sciences has done a lot of research on where it turns out that we can respond a few seconds before an emotionally arousing event. Our body starts preparing for it before it happens. This would be very relevant to fast sports, Ping Pong, tennis, cricket, downhill skiing, and probably martial arts as well. Um, and this research seems to me pretty convincing.

Speaker 3:     02:17:11   Uh, I've been a subject in some of these experiments myself and the dean raging rational. It is this, you sit there in front of a computer screen, you're wearing electrodes that measure emotional arousal, you know, adrenaline causes sweating and emotional arousal like a lie detector. So it's a standard way of measuring emotional arousal when you read, you press a button and 10 seconds later a picture appears on the screen. Most of the pictures are neutral, you know, landscapes, you know, bold of flyers or something like that. I'm vaguely pleasant. Some of them are scenes that are emotionally arousing hardcore pornography or scenes of extreme violence. Now, almost everybody, when they see hardcore pornography or scenes that fondness who's emotionally aroused, even if they don't want to be, they they, they are, and the lie detector thing shows a huge emotional arousal. But the interesting thing in these experiments is the emotional arousal begins about five seconds before the picture appears on the screen, five seconds, long time for, for, for people ready, here's five seconds, go

Speaker 3:     02:18:23   five seconds. That's a long time. And so the body, the heart starts beating faster. The fight or flight response. So you know, the adrenaline kind of response kicks in. So when the, when the stimulus occurs, the body's already sort of revved up with this emotional response. Now this is what that, that, um, dean regions done. He's repeated it and it's been replicated elsewhere, is called pre sentiment feeling, the feeling and then trans, um, and a decision as to which picture appears on the screen is made by the computer a millisecond before it actually appears. There's no one in the world knows what picture is going to appear. Now this is really interesting, you see, because it shows those a kind of feeding back of emotion. No, Daryl Bem at Cornell who's a very respected professor of psychology and has been doing a different kind of experiment which doesn't involve the lie detector, um, his experiments and you sit in front of a computer screen and there's two curtains.

Speaker 3:     02:19:24   They're behind one of those curtains. There's a blank wall, an image of a blank wall behind the other one. Those upon a graphic image. Now, most people, even if they don't normally watch pornography and more interested in seeing a pornographic image than a blank wall. And before you do the test, you do as a simple questionnaire, you gay, straight, etc. So people who are gay, gay, gay, pornographic images. So those are emotionally arousing. Say what happens? You sit down at the computer and you click on one of those two cartons, which, which one you want to click on, choose which of the two. It's random whether you'll get the wall or the pornographic image. And so you click on one and most people would hope that they're going to see the pornographic image, a different one each time. And um, and the computer makes the decision which one to roll back which cotton roll back after you've made.

Speaker 3:     02:20:23   The people don't know that there's decisions only made by the computer after they've decided they think it's already there. Um, so most people don't know that they're doing a pre sentiment test. Um, so what happens is in these experiments about 53 or 54 percent of the time, people get the pornographic image, whereas by pure chance they would be 50 percent. And if instead of a pornographic image you have a sort of mildly pleasant landscape or something that's not emotionally arousing, it's down to 50 percent. Whoa. So this is telling us that something about emotional arousal can work back in time. And when you think about fast sports, imagine you know, tennis people are saving at 90 miles an hour. There's not time for the eye to take in the angle of the ball to process it in the brain through clunky brain processing, to send messages along the nerves to muscles to get the whole body ready or in a penalty shoot out.

Speaker 3:     02:21:24   The goalie haS to, in a football soccer match the, they have to react very quickly. And in, in ping pong, you have to react quickly. And cricket people, australian fast bowlers bowling 100 miles an hour in cricket, um, does not long enough. And in downhill skiing, you come around a corner. Um, it's, it's too fast. So, um, I think that part of our, the way we're reacting, and I think this comes up most in sports is it, and it would also come out driving a car if you got the five second and advance warning some accidents, but hatton you could concentrate and perhaps avoid it and better. And this is a fascinating field of research which, um, is it, is not yet been picked up by a sports psychologists or by. I've told Several people in the military about it because I think it Would be really interesting.

Speaker 3:     02:22:17   I don't think it's going to do any harm if they know know this, but say for example, you had your physiology being monitored, you're in a flight simulator or a driving simulator and say you had it so that when you've got an otherwise inexplicably emotional arousal going on, will you be unconscious of it to start with, say it was wild outside red light went on in the cockpit of the drive flight simulator. It might sometimes be a false alarm, but every time that light went on you the message we concentrate harder, something bad might happen and this could be useful technological candidate. And so I think this is, you know, there's a lot of potential in this kind of research which is only just being began to be explored. Um, and the reason I've encouraged people in the british defense research establishment to do this is because they're more likely to take it up than people in universities. Because in universities, you know, there's this kind of dogmatic skepticism that means people are, it's rubbish, it's, whew, it's pseudo science, et cetera. I mean stupid reactions really at the, the, the most interesting in actually, yes, this is really interesting. Can we find out more and can we apply it?

Speaker 1:     02:23:31   That's incrediblY fascinating. Do you think that these things like this is pre pre cognition ability or this uh, instincts or these, the ability to recognize these patterns. do you think this is possibly some emerging thing in, in human beings? Emerging aspect of the development of humans mean obviously if you believe in evolution, we were one thing now we are this, we are what we are now, which is radically different from the pre human hominids have 2 million plus years ago were very, very different. If you just extrapolate a million years from now, we're going to be very different from what we are now. Do you think that this aspect of human beings of human life is as a, as a developing thing, this pre cognition ability, this ability to communicate with each other. Do you think maybe that's what's manifesting itself when you, when you think about someone and also on the phone rings and it's them like instantaneously? Well, I think that is

Speaker 3:     02:24:29   being in traditional societies, that's actually a better development in modern ones where there's people don't talk about it on the whole, there's no training for it and stuff. In traditional societies, people take these things for granted and they rely on them. Now the phone is an interesting case because this is a modern technology, but I think that telepathy as a means of communication between people who know each other well is actually. It's always been going on. Animals have it. I've been doing research on telepathy and dogs. I wrote a book called dogs that know when they're coming home. I did lots of experiments on our dogs picking it up just by routine or cars hands. The answer is no. We filmed them. We have people come at random times in unfamiliar vehicles.

Speaker 1:     02:25:11   the dog still on there, but why have people have such a hard time replicating those dog? One's been application.

Speaker 3:     02:25:18   It was replicated by a skeptic who then pretended he hadn't replicated it. Um, but it's now generally agreed that his results agreed perfectly with my end. And millions of people have dogs that do this. So I don't think it's hard to replicate, it's just that if you do this in a university, it's likely to end your career. Yeah. what is that? What it is? Because I've read online people that have disagreed with you saying that no one has ever replicated your your results. Oh yes. well that's. That's the skeptics disinformation. It's been replicated by one of the leading skeptics in britain who then pretended falsely that he hadn't. And who was that? Richard wiseman and online on my website you can see his data plotted on graphs showing exactly the same effect as I found. Is it statistically significant or is it 100 percent is statistically significant data and mine.

Speaker 3:     02:26:12   What is your data like? How, how? How often do they know and how often were they unaware? About 80 percent of the time. We did a series of 100 trials with one dog and on those occasions the dog started waiting. When the person was about to come home, it was actually before she got in the car to come home, all the taxi picked up her intention and this was at random times on 20 occasions out of 100. it didn't on three or four of those, the dog was sick and on the other occasions it was when it was a bit john heat and the next apartment could be distracted, but even if you include all hundred events including the ones where the dog was to do the statistics, it's still massively significant. That's fasc Inating. So you think that much like what you were talking about with your son who is able to recognize 100 percent of the time when someone was staring at him that dogs, because they don't have like a cultural context, they don't have all this doubt in their head that they do it and they have an emotional investment too.

Speaker 3:     02:27:14   It's not like a boring paris psychology experiment in it for a dog is immensely emotionally exciting. when the owner comes home is an emotional charge. They do it over and over again. They never get bored of their own. Is coming home, so this is the telephone phenomenon, which I can briefly summarize is one I do in my tests. People who say this happens to them in real life, give me the names and numbers of four people. It might happen with a we pick, they sit at home being filmed so we know they're not getting other phone calls or text messages or something. And they are a landline on the landline phone with no caller id display. We picked one of the four corners at random and I'm called them out and say if you were doing it was say please ring joe. No. And um, they think about you, they bring you your phone rings and before you pick it up you have to say who you think it is.

Speaker 3:     02:28:13   Yeah, I think it's john and you pick it up. Say hi john, you're right or you're wrong. You can't know from the normal patterns of life because the, um, it's a randomly chosen. And so by chance you'd be right one time in four, 25 percent in these experiments. The Average score in our film test is 45 percent and massively significant statistically, and this has not been replicated in other universities. Even one of britain's leading skeptics checked us out and he's getting positive results much to his dismay. And so this is a. I've now got an automated test. I'm about to launch it in the us, but it's already launched in britain where people can do this on cell phones with their friends. You don't have to be in a lab. Um, I think telephone telepathy is real and I think what's happening is that when you want to call someone, if I wanted to call you, I'd formed the intention to call you.

Speaker 3:     02:29:08   I've got a motive to call you. They'd be thinking about joe and then I'd get my phone out. I dial a number or press your memory thing for you. When I formed the intention to call you. I think you could in some cases pickup that intention. You might start thinking about me for no apparent reason. And then the call comes through and you say, it's funny, I was just thinking about you. So I think this is a genuinely telepathic phenomenon in many cases. Sometimes it can be coincidence, but on average it seems to be a real effect. And um, I think this is an example of where telepathy really is evolving along with technology. It happens with emails and text messages as well. Until recently, the only way you could get in touch with someone at a distance was telepathically if you wanted a quick response.

Speaker 3:     02:30:00   Now you can do it by phone. And I've also done research on what I think is one of the basic biological forms of this which mothers and babies, many nursing mothers find that when they're away from their baby for no apparent reason, their milk that's done, their breasts start squeezing out milk normally. That happens when the baby cries and they feel their breast tinkle. Say there was a nursing mother here now and there was no baby crying here and she felt her milk that done. Most nursing mothers think my baby needs me. And until recently they just went home to the baby. Now they call home on a cell phone. But I've done studies on nursing mothers in london, 20 of them over two month period each, and we found that there was. it was very, very highly significant. It wasn't just synchronized rhythms. They were responding when they baby needed them and before telephones were invented, any mother that could pick up when her baby needed her and went to the baby would have a mother, a baby that survived better than a mother, didn't pick it up.

Speaker 3:     02:31:05   So I think telephones in a way, it gives us a technological way of doing something that in the past happened more unreliably by telepathy. So do you think that these telephones connecting to telepathy is somehow or another related to this, this morphic field that it's seemingly undefined? We don't. We know. Or rather you believe that this is a real phenomenon, that it exists, but we don't know exactly what the mechanism is. Yeah. I think what happens with social groups, any social group, is that the field as a whole, as a group, as a whole, has a field, like a magnetic field will arrange on filings which are within its field of influence. If you have a flock of birds, starlings that are flying together, there's a kind of field that coordinates their movement so they can change direction rapidly without bumping into each other. If you hAve a school of fish, you got the same kind of thing.

Speaker 3:     02:31:58   If you have a pack of wolves and they leave the young, the cubs are left behind in the den with a babysitter while the adults go hunting to bring food back for the young. The field that links them isn't broken. It stretches like an invisible elastic band. I think that's the basis of telepathy. I think it's to do with social bonds through social fields. And a mother and the baby are very closely linked and it's as if there's this invisible elastic band between them. And so when you look at telephone telepathy, it typically only happens with people you know. Well, it happens between mothers and children. Husbands and wives, lovers, partners, um, therapists and clients. If there's a kind of emotional charge, best friends, it doesn't happen with insurance salesman and, and people to whom you're not emotionally connected. Um, it's a, it depends on social bonds.

Speaker 3:     02:32:54   And so I think morphic fields of the social group is something that applies to any social group. A family as a kind of has a morphic field, a football team has won a Michael Murphy who founded the esalen institute, did a fascinating book called the psychic side of sports. And um, he describes these interviews with football players and many of them turned quite mystical when they were interviewed in private. They wouldn't talk about it in the locker room for fear of being thought weird. Um, but many of them, like soccer players, they said when the game's going, well, it's as if they can just feel where other people are on the field. It was like an instinct even they didn't, they just, somehow they were working like a single organism. And I think that's an example of a morphic field of a social group. And I think that's why team sports, I'm, uh, so interesting to watch because it's not just about guys being brilliant, it's about guys working together and in a way that's highly coordinated and more effectively the team works together. The more effective it is. That's fascinating. Staff. It's really interesting to consider how much of a factor that does play. What did it, what exactly it is too. Yeah. Now it's an amazing, uh, you're out of time. Rupert sheldrake, rupert sheldrake.org. Is your website a rupert sheldrake.org? I'm just sheldrake.org. And rupert sheldrake is

Speaker 1:     02:34:18   your twitter handle? correct? Do you handle all that stuff? I, I tried. I didn't really use twitter, so no, forget that. Really do have one, but I don't use it. Someone set it up for me and I never learned. Her last tweet was September 13th. I posted a new photo. The facebook. Oh, so you use facebook? facebook has automatically, yes. To twitter. Uh, thank you very much man. Really appreciate this. It's really cool to have a conversation with you after listening to you in the trial logs a. I really appreciated it and we can do this anytime you're in town. Okay. Well it's fun for me too. I've really enjoyed it. How often are you in la? The last time was 27 years ago, so I got lucky. I goT lucky. Alright. Thank you very much. I really, really appreciate it. Rupert sheldrake. Ladies and gentlemen, uh, we'll see you thursday with a graham hancock.

Speaker 1:     02:35:06   Until then, much love big kiss. This podcast is brought to you by blue apron. Go to blue apron.com forward slash rogen for your first two meals for free. That's blue apron.com. Forward slash rogen were also brought to you by stamps.com. Go to stamps.com. Enter the code word j r e and get your $110 bonus offer, which includes a digital scale and up to $55 in free postage. And last but not least, we are brought to you by [inaudible] dot com, but it's o, n n I t dot d's the codeword rogan. And you will save 10 percent off any and all sub.

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JRE 550 - Rupert Sheldrake

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   72 Rupert Sheldrake

*** WISDOM TROVE ***

1:I am more interested in dogs than in dogmas. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
2:I think hard work is what gets most people to the top. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
3:Because a truly skeptical position would be a very uncertain one. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
4:There's a certain kind of scepticism that can't bear uncertainty. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
5:If there is no randomness in the universe, then what do we mean by chaos? ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
6:Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
7:I do vote but I don't think that any political party represents my point of view. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
8:At the moment of insight, a potential pattern of organized behavior comes into being. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
9:I learnt about plants from my father, who was a herbalist and an amateur microscopist. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
10:At the moment of insight, a potential pattern  of organized behavior  comes into being. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
11:Physics is based on the assumption that certain fundamental features of nature are constant. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
12:I still say the Lord's Prayer every day. It covers a lot of ground in our relation to the world. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
13:Strategic thinking requires the ability to contemplate possibilities that are not immediately present. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
14:The fact that you can forge a twenty dollar bill doesn't prove that all twenty dollar bills are forgeries. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
15:I think that the &
16:Most of nature is inherently chaotic. It's not rigidly determined in the old sense. It's not rigidly predictable. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
17:I think that creativity depends on having sufficient indeterminacy around for a new pattern to arise up within it. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
18:In both religion and science, some people are dishonest, exploitative, incompetent and exhibit other human failings. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
19:Contemporary science is based on the philosophy of materialism, which claims that all reality is material or physical. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
20:The universe is not in a steady state; there's an ongoing creative principle in nature, which is driving things onwards. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
21:Matter is merely mind deadened by the development of habit to the point where the breaking up of these habits is very difficult. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
22:I went through the standard scientific atheist phase when I was about 14. I bought into that package deal of science equals atheism. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
23:Unfortunately, at present, practically no one under thirty goes to workshops. It's a system of education entirely for the middle aged. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
24:Well, natural selection was an idea that Darwin developed by analogy with conscious human selection. That's where he got the idea from. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
25:The mechanistic theory of nature is a theory of nature, and one that I think is wrong, or at least too limited. It's not an eternal truth. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
26:Well, I'm always hoping to hear from interested chemists and protein chemists, because I'd love for these experiments to be done properly. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
27:All research scientists know that writing in the passive voice is artificial; they are not disembodied observers, but people doing research. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
28:The Science Delusion is the belief that science already understands the nature of reality in principle leaving only the details to be filled in. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
29:The simplest and cheapest of all reforms within institutional science is to switch from the passive to the active voice in writing about science. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
30:The point of what I'm doing is to talk not about science backed up by hundreds of committees, thousands of professors, and many tons of textbooks. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
31:To describe the overwhelming life of a tropical forest just in terms of inert biochemistry and DNA didn't seem to give a very full picture of the world. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
32:I'm talking about science on the leading edge, where it's not clear which way things are going be cause we don't know, and I'm dealing with areas which we don't know about. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
33:Of the seven experiments, the ones that have been most investigated so far have been the pets. The dogs who know when their masters for coming home, and the sense of being stared at. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
34:The sciences are being held back by assumptions that have hardened into dogmas, maintained by powerful taboos. I believe that the sciences will be regenerated when they are set free. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
35:Basically, morphic fields are fields of habit, and they've been set up through habits of thought, through habits of activity, and through habits of speech. Most of our culture is habitual. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
36:Basically, morphic fields are fields of habit, and they've been set up through habits of thought, through habits of activity, and through habits of speech. Most of our culture is habitual... ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
37:Machines are designed not to be random. When you call up a word processing program on your computer, you don't want it to be different every time you call it up. You want it to stay the same. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
38:Right now, any opinion anyone has about whether dogs can or cannot really tell when their owner is coming home by some unknown means... nobody knows. The weight of evi dence suggests they can. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
39:The idea is that there is a kind of memory in nature. Each kind of thing has a collective memory. So, take a squirrel living in New York now. That squirrel is being influenced by all past squirrels. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
40:Over the course of fifteen years of research on plant development, I came to the conclusion that for understanding the development of plants, their morphogenesis, genes and gene products are not enough. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
41:The cumulative nature of the evolutionary process, the fact that memory is preserved, means that life grows not just through a random proliferation of new forms, but there's a kind of cumulative quality. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
42:In any case, however many subatomic particles there may be, organisms are wholes, and reducing them to their parts by killing them and analysing their chemical constituents simply destroys what makes them organisms. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
43:The facts of science are real enough, and so are the techniques that scientists use, and so are the technologies based on them. But the belief system that governs conventional scientific thinking is an act of faith. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
44:Now the whole point about machines is they are designed not to be random. When you call up a word processing program on your computer, you don't want it to be different every time you call it up. You want it to stay the same. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
45:For more than 200 years, materialists have promised that science will eventually explain everything in terms of physics and chemistry. Believers are sustained by the faith that scientific discoveries will justify their beliefs. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
46:First, some physicists insist that quantum mechanics cannot be formulated without taking into account the minds of observers. They argue that minds cannot be reduced to physics because physics presupposes the minds of physicists ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
47:Bad religion is arrogant, self-righteous, dogmatic and intolerant. And so is bad science. But unlike religious fundamentalists, scientific fundamentalists do not realize that their opinions are based on faith. They think they know the truth. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
48:Not every good idea survives. Not every new form of art is repeated. Not every new potential instinct is successful. Only the successful ones get repeated. By natural selection and then through repetition they become probable, more habitual. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
49:The morphic fields include all kinds of organizing fields... : The organizing fields of animal and human behaviour, of social and cultural systems, and of mental activity can all be regarded as morphic fields which contain an inherent memory. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
50:Creativity gives new forms, new patterns, new ideas, new art forms. And we don't know where creativity comes from. Is it inspired from above? Welling up from below? Picked up from the air? What? Creativity is a mystery wherever you encounter it. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
51:I am all in favour of science and reason if they are scientific and reasonable. But I am against granting scientists and the materialist worldview an exemption from critical thinking and sceptical investigation. We need an enlightenment of the Enlightenment. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
52:It’s almost as if science said, Give me one free miracle, and from there the entire thing will proceed with a seamless, causal explanation.’17 The one free miracle was the sudden appearance of all the matter and energy in the universe, with all the laws that govern it. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
53:What you do, what you say and what you think can influence other people by morphic resonance. There is no immoral filter in morphic resonance, which means that we have to be more careful about what we are thinking if we are concerned about the affect we have on others. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
54:I have been a scientist for more than 40 years, having studied at Cambridge and Harvard. I researched and taught at Cambridge University, was a research fellow of the Royal Society, and have more than 80 publications in peer-reviewed journals. I am strongly pro-science. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
55:As Terence McKenna observed, Modern science is based on the principle: ‘Give us one free miracle and we’ll explain the rest.’ The one free miracle is the appearance of all the mass and energy in the universe and all the laws that govern it in a single instant from nothing.4 ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
56:Modern physics has definitely decided for Plato. For the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense of the word: they are forms, structures, or – in Plato’s sense – Ideas, which can be unambiguously spoken of only in the language of mathematics. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
57:A lot of us have all sorts of ideas, and we select some rather than others and give expression to those... and some works of art are more successful than others. Some languish in obscurity and are never heard of again, while others form the foundation of a whole school of art. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
58:When people see one of these new forms of art for the first time, often they can't make sense of it. Then, if it's around long enough, a lot of people get used to it and it becomes assimilated into culture. So there's a morphic field both for the kind of art and for the appreciation of it. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
59:The Gaia Hypothesis of James Lovelock [and Lynn Margulis] puts forward a scientific view of the living Earth, which in one respect is modern, empherical, scientific, in another respect re-awakens an ancient archetype, which in fact is so clearly suggested by the very name of the hypothesis, Gaia, the Greek name for Mother Earth. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
60:The assumption that the laws of nature are eternal is a vestige of the Christian belief system that informed the early postulates of modern science in the seventeenth century. Perhaps the laws of nature have actually evolved along with nature itself, and perhaps they are still evolving. Or perhaps they are not laws at all, but more like habits. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
61:The biggest bursts of speciation that we know about in the history of the earth are soon after great cataclysms, like the extinction of the dinosaurs, which create new opportunities, and all sorts of new forms spring up... So, quite often, the reasons for creativity depend on accidents or disasters that prevent the normal habits being carried out. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
62:In practice, the goal of skepticism is not the discovery of truth, but the exposure of other people's errors. It plays a useful role in science, religion, scholarship, and common sense. But we need to remember that it is a weapon serving belief or self-interest; we need to be skeptical of skeptics. The more militant the skeptic, the stronger the belief. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
63:So there’s a kind of resurgence of the sense of freedom and spontaneity in nature. From nature being bound into a rigid, deterministic model, freedom, spontaneity and openness are emerging once again. It’s now recognized the future is open, not determined by the past. And this is true in many realms, the astronomical realm, the human realm, the meteorological realm in many ways. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
64:In no other field of scientific endeavor do otherwise intelligent people feel free to make public claims based on prejudice and ignorance. Yet in relation to psychic phenomena, committed materialists feel free to disregard the evidence and behave irrationally and unscientifically, while claiming to speak in the name of science and reason. They abuse the authority of science and bring rationalism into disrepute. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
65:The way mathematical laws can exist independently of the evolving universe and at the same time act upon it remains a profound mystery. For those who accept God, this mystery is an aspect of God's relation to the realm of nature; for those who deny God, the mystery is even more obscure: A quasi-mental realm of mathematical laws somehow exists independently of nature, yet not in God, and governs the evolving physical world without itself being physical. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove
66:The sudden appearance of all the Laws of Nature is as untestable as Platonic metaphysics or theology. Why should we assume that all the Laws of Nature were already present at the instant of the Big Bang, like a cosmic Napoleonic code? Perhaps some of them, such as those that govern protein crystals, or brains, came into being when protein crystals or brains first arose. The preexistence of these laws cannot possibly be tested before the emergence of the phenomena they govern. ~ rupert-sheldrake, @wisdomtrove

*** NEWFULLDB 2.4M ***

1:cognitive dissonance is ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
2:I am more interested in dogs than in dogmas. Obviously, ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
3:Because a truly skeptical position would be a very uncertain one. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
4:There's a certain kind of scepticism that can't bear uncertainty. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
5:If there is no randomness in the universe, then what do we mean by chaos? ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
6:Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
7:At the moment of insight, a potential pattern of organized behavior comes into being. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
8:I still say the Lord's Prayer every day. It covers a lot of ground in our relation to the world. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
9:Strategic thinking requires the ability to contemplate possibilities that are not immediately present. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
10:I think that the 'laws of nature' are also prone to evolve; I think they are more like habits than laws. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
11:The fact that you can forge a twenty dollar bill doesn't prove that all twenty dollar bills are forgeries. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
12:Most of nature is inherently chaotic. It's not rigidly determined in the old sense. It's not rigidly predictable. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
13:I think that creativity depends on having sufficient indeterminacy around for a new pattern to arise up within it. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
14:In both religion and science, some people are dishonest, exploitative, incompetent and exhibit other human failings. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
15:Contemporary science is based on the philosophy of materialism, which claims that all reality is material or physical. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
16:The universe is not in a steady state; there's an ongoing creative principle in nature, which is driving things onwards. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
17:Matter is merely mind deadened by the development of habit to the point where the breaking up of these habits is very difficult. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
18:I went through the standard scientific atheist phase when I was about 14. I bought into that package deal of science equals atheism. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
19:Unfortunately, at present, practically no one under thirty goes to workshops. It's a system of education entirely for the middle aged. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
20:The science delusion is the belief that science already understands the nature of reality in principle, leaving only the details to be filled in. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
21:Rupert Sheldrake puts it, “The evangelists of science and technology have succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of the missionaries of Christianity. ~ Stephen Harrod Buhner,
22:To describe the overwhelming life of a tropical forest just in terms of inert biochemistry and DNA didn't seem to give a very full picture of the world. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
23:I'm talking about science on the leading edge, where it's not clear which way things are going be cause we don't know, and I'm dealing with areas which we don't know about. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
24:In ancient Rome, money was minted in the temple of Juno Moneta, the Great Mother in her aspect of adviser and admonisher. She is the source of our words money and monetary. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
25:Of the seven experiments, the ones that have been most investigated so far have been the pets. The dogs who know when their masters for coming home, and the sense of being stared at. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
26:The sunlike energy released by the fusion of atoms of the lightest element, hydrogen, is detonated by the fission of one of the heaviest, plutonium, named after the god of the underworld. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
27:Basically, morphic fields are fields of habit, and they've been set up through habits of thought, through habits of activity, and through habits of speech. Most of our culture is habitual. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
28:Machines are designed not to be random. When you call up a word processing program on your computer, you don't want it to be different every time you call it up. You want it to stay the same. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
29:Right now, any opinion anyone has about whether dogs can or cannot really tell when their owner is coming home by some unknown means... nobody knows. The weight of evi dence suggests they can. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
30:The idea is that there is a kind of memory in nature. Each kind of thing has a collective memory. So, take a squirrel living in New York now. That squirrel is being influenced by all past squirrels. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
31:Over the course of fifteen years of research on plant development, I came to the conclusion that for understanding the development of plants, their morphogenesis, genes and gene products are not enough. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
32:The cumulative nature of the evolutionary process, the fact that memory is preserved, means that life grows not just through a random proliferation of new forms, but there's a kind of cumulative quality. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
33:In any case, however many subatomic particles there may be, organisms are wholes, and reducing them to their parts by killing them and analysing their chemical constituents simply destroys what makes them organisms. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
34:The facts of science are real enough, and so are the techniques that scientists use, and so are the technologies based on them. But the belief system that governs conventional scientific thinking is an act of faith. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
35:the very word for matter is derived from the same root as mother-in Latin, the corresponding words are materia and matet-and (as discussed in Chapter 3), the whole ethos of materialism is permeated with maternal metaphors. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
36:For more than 200 years, materialists have promised that science will eventually explain everything in terms of physics and chemistry. Believers are sustained by the faith that scientific discoveries will justify their beliefs. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
37:First, some physicists insist that quantum mechanics cannot be formulated without taking into account the minds of observers. They argue that minds cannot be reduced to physics because physics presupposes the minds of physicists ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
38:Bad religion is arrogant, self-righteous, dogmatic and intolerant. And so is bad science. But unlike religious fundamentalists, scientific fundamentalists do not realize that their opinions are based on faith. They think they know the truth. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
39:Not every good idea survives. Not every new form of art is repeated. Not every new potential instinct is successful. Only the successful ones get repeated. By natural selection and then through repetition they become probable, more habitual. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
40:The morphic fields include all kinds of organizing fields...: The organizing fields of animal and human behaviour, of social and cultural systems, and of mental activity can all be regarded as morphic fields which contain an inherent memory. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
41:Creativity gives new forms, new patterns, new ideas, new art forms. And we don't know where creativity comes from. Is it inspired from above? Welling up from below? Picked up from the air? What? Creativity is a mystery wherever you encounter it. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
42:Extended minds are implicit in our language. The words “attention” and “intention” come from the Latin root tendere, to stretch, as in “tense” and “tension.” “Attention” is ad + tendere, “to stretch toward”; “intention,” in + tendere, “to stretch into. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
43:I am all in favour of science and reason if they are scientific and reasonable. But I am against granting scientists and the materialist worldview an exemption from critical thinking and sceptical investigation. We need an enlightenment of the Enlightenment.17 ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
44:What you do, what you say and what you think can influence other people by morphic resonance. There is no immoral filter in morphic resonance, which means that we have to be more careful about what we are thinking if we are concerned about the affect we have on others. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
45:I have been a scientist for more than 40 years, having studied at Cambridge and Harvard. I researched and taught at Cambridge University, was a research fellow of the Royal Society, and have more than 80 publications in peer-reviewed journals. I am strongly pro-science. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
46:It’s almost as if science said, “Give me one free miracle, and from there the entire thing will proceed with a seamless, causal explanation.”’17 The one free miracle was the sudden appearance of all the matter and energy in the universe, with all the laws that govern it. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
47:As Terence McKenna observed, “Modern science is based on the principle: ‘Give us one free miracle and we’ll explain the rest.’ The one free miracle is the appearance of all the mass and energy in the universe and all the laws that govern it in a single instant from nothing.”4 ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
48:[M]odern physics has definitely decided for Plato. For the smallest units of matter are not physical objects in the ordinary sense of the word: they are forms, structures, or – in Plato’s sense – Ideas, which can be unambiguously spoken of only in the language of mathematics. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
49:A lot of us have all sorts of ideas, and we select some rather than others and give expression to those... and some works of art are more successful than others. Some languish in obscurity and are never heard of again, while others form the foundation of a whole school of art. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
50:The quantum hologram is a mechanism to explain this concept of the ancients of the Akashic Records. It also explains Rupert Sheldrake's work among animals [his theory of morphic fields and morphic resonance, leading to a vision of a living, developing universe with its own inherent memory]. ~ Edgar Mitchell,
51:When people see one of these new forms of art for the first time, often they can't make sense of it. Then, if it's around long enough, a lot of people get used to it and it becomes assimilated into culture. So there's a morphic field both for the kind of art and for the appreciation of it. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
52:The Gaia Hypothesis of James Lovelock [and Lynn Margulis] puts forward a scientific view of the living Earth, which in one respect is modern, empherical, scientific, in another respect re-awakens an ancient archetype, which in fact is so clearly suggested by the very name of the hypothesis, Gaia, the Greek name for Mother Earth. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
53:The assumption that the laws of nature are eternal is a vestige of the Christian belief system that informed the early postulates of modern science in the seventeenth century. Perhaps the laws of nature have actually evolved along with nature itself, and perhaps they are still evolving. Or perhaps they are not laws at all, but more like habits. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
54:The biggest bursts of speciation that we know about in the history of the earth are soon after great cataclysms, like the extinction of the dinosaurs, which create new opportunities, and all sorts of new forms spring up... So, quite often, the reasons for creativity depend on accidents or disasters that prevent the normal habits being carried out. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
55:In practice, the goal of skepticism is not the discovery of truth, but the exposure of other people's errors. It plays a useful role in science, religion, scholarship, and common sense. But we need to remember that it is a weapon serving belief or self-interest; we need to be skeptical of skeptics. The more militant the skeptic, the stronger the belief. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
56:So there’s a kind of resurgence of the sense of freedom and spontaneity in nature. From nature being bound into a rigid, deterministic model, freedom, spontaneity and openness are emerging once again. It’s now recognized the future is open, not determined by the past. And this is true in many realms, the astronomical realm, the human realm, the meteorological realm in many ways. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
57:But the cosmonaut Aleksandr Aleksandrov summed up the principal message for millions of people. Looking down on America and then in Russia, he saw the first snow and imagined people in both countries getting ready for winter. "And then it struck me that we are all children of our Earth. It does not matter what country you look at. We are all Earth's children, and we should treat her as our Mother. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
58:We must become aware of the astonishing fact that as a species we are the victims of an instance of traumatic abuse in childhood. As human beings, we once had a symbiotic relationship with the world-girdling intelligence of the planet that was mediated through shamanic plant use. This relationship was disrupted and eventually lost by the progressive climatic drying of the Eurasian and African land masses. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
59:In no other field of scientific endeavor do otherwise intelligent people feel free to make public claims based on prejudice and ignorance. Yet in relation to psychic phenomena, committed materialists feel free to disregard the evidence and behave irrationally and unscientifically, while claiming to speak in the name of science and reason. They abuse the authority of science and bring rationalism into disrepute. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
60:Zoological physiology is the doctrine of the functions or actions of animals. It regards animal bodies as machines impelled by various forces, and performing a certain amount of work which can be expressed in terms of the ordinary forces of nature. The final object of physiology is to deduce the facts of morphology on the one hand, and those of ecology on the other, from the laws of the molecular forces of matter. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
61:Our human dependence on the living processes of the earth was largely forgotten with the growth of industrial civilization. Now we are being forced to remember that Gaia is greater than we are and that the human economy is embedded within the ecology of the biosphere. So, in what sense is Gaia alive? And what difference does it make if we think of her as a living organism, as opposed to an inanimate physical system? ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
62:The commonest kinds of seemingly telepathic response are the anticipation by dogs and cats of their owners coming home; the anticipation of owners going away; the anticipation of being fed; cats disappearing when their owners intend to take them to the vet; dogs knowing when their owners are planning to take them for a walk; and animals that get excited when their owner is on the telephone, even before the telephone is answered. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
63:The sudden appearance of all the Laws of Nature is as untestable as Platonic metaphysics or theology. Why should we assume that all the Laws of Nature were already present at the instant of the Big Bang, like a cosmic Napoleonic code? Perhaps some of them, such as those that govern protein crystals, or brains, came into being when protein crystals or brains first arose. The preexistence of these laws cannot possibly be tested before the emergence of the phenomena they govern. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
64:morphic resonance points to new ways forward: If the regularities of nature are evolving habits rather than eternal laws, there is no need to assume that all these regularities were fixed at the moment of the Big Bang. Hence there is no need to suppose that all laws of nature were intelligently designed at the moment of creation, or else that there are an infinite number of unobserved universes. These hypotheses are unnecessary if nature is radically evolutionary, as the hypothesis of formative causation proposes. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
65:We need to respond to our present ecological crisis practically, by making appropriate social, political, economic, and technological changes. We need to look at the attitudes that have led to such devastation of the earth and to find a more harmonious way of living. And those of us who believe in the power of prayer need to pray for forgiveness and guidance. If a wiser and juster human order comes about, if a new harmony develops between humanity and the living world, this would indeed seem like an answer to prayer. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
66:The beginning of wisdom, I believe, is our ability to accept an inherent messiness in our explanation of what's going on. Nowhere is it written that human minds should be able to give a full accounting of creation in all dimensions and on all levels. Ludwig Wittgenstein had the idea that philosophy should be what he called "true enough." I think that's a great idea. True enough is as true as can be gotten. The imagination is chaos. New forms are fetched out of it. The creative act is to let down the net of human imagination into the ocean of chaos on which we are suspended and then to attempt to bring out of it ideas. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
67:If memory within nature sounds mysterious, we should bear in mind that mathematical laws transcending nature are more rather than less so; they are metaphysical rather than physical. The way mathematical laws can exist independently of the evolving universe and at the same time act upon it remains a profound mystery. For those who accept God, this mystery is an aspect of God's relation to the realm of nature; for those who deny God, the mystery is even more obscure: A quasi-mental realm of mathematical laws somehow exists independently of nature, yet not in God, and governs the evolving physical world without itself being physical. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
68:Why are rituals so conservative? And why do people all over the world believe that through ritual activities they are participating in a process that takes them out of ordinary secular time and somehow brings the past into the present? The idea of morphic resonance provides a natural answer to these questions. Through morphic resonance, ritual really can bring the past into the present. The present performers of the ritual indeed connect with those in the past. The greater the similarity between the way the ritual is performed now and the way it was performed before, the stronger the resonant connection between the past and present participants. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
69:Consider your arms and legs. They contain exactly the same kinds of muscle cells, nerve cells, and so on. They contain the same proteins and other chemicals; the bones are made of identical substance. Yet they have different shapes, just as houses of different design can be made from the same building materials. The chemicals alone do not determine the form. Nor does the DNA. The DNA is the same in all the cells of the arms and the legs, and indeed everywhere else in the body. All the cells are genetically programmed identically. Yet somehow they behave differently and form tissues and organs of different structures. Clearly some formative influence other than DNA must be shaping the developing arms and legs. All developmental biologists acknowledge this fact. But at this stage their mechanistic explanations peter out into vague statements about "complex spatio-temporal patterns of physico-chemical interaction not yet fully understood." Obviously this is not a solution but just another way of stating the problem. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
70:The genetic program as a vital factor is not the same as the DNA molecules in the genes, for these are just molecules, not mindlike entities. The fact that qualities of mind are commonly projected onto the genes, especially the qualities of selfish, competitive people within capitalist societies, makes it easy to forget that they are just chemicals. As such, they play a chemical role, and their activity is confined to the chemical level. The genetic code in the DNA molecules determines the sequence of amino-acid building blocks in protein molecules , the so-called primary structure of the proteins. The genes dictate the primary stucture of proteins, not the specific shape of a duck's foot or a lamb's kidney or an orchid. The way the proteins are arranged in cells, the ways cells are arranged in tissues, and tissues in organs, and organs in organisms are not programmed in the genetic code , which can only program protein molecules. Given the right genes and hence the right proteins, and the right systems by which protein synthesis is controlled, the organism is somehow supposed to assemble itself automatically. This is rather like delivering the right materials to a building site at the right times and expecting a house to grow spontaneously. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
71:Dark matter is currently thought to make up about 23 percent of the mass and energy of the universe, whereas normal matter and energy make up only about 4 percent. Worse still, most contemporary cosmologists think that the continuing expansion of the universe is driven by “dark energy,” whose nature is again obscure. According to the Standard Model of cosmology, dark energy currently accounts for about 73 percent of the matter and energy of the universe. How do dark matter and energy relate to regular matter and energy? And what is the zero-point energy field, also known as the quantum vacuum? Can any of this zero-point energy be tapped? The law of conservation of matter and energy was formulated before these questions arose, and has no ready answer for them. It is based on philosophical and theological theories. Historically, it is rooted in the atomistic school of philosophy in ancient Greece. From the outset it was an assumption. In its modern form, it combines a series of “laws” that have developed since the seventeenth century—the laws of conservation of matter, mass, motion, force and energy. In this chapter I look at the history of these ideas, and show how modern physics throws up questions that the old theories cannot answer. As faith in conservation comes into question, astonishing new possibilities open up in realms ranging from the generation of energy to human nutrition. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
72:The organization of insect colonies involves several mysterious features quite apart from the prodigious complexity of the social organization itself. For example, in his studies of South African termites, the naturalist Eugene Marais found that they could speedily repair damage to the mounds, rebuilding tunnels and arches, working from both sides of the breach he had made, and meeting up perfectly in the middle, even though the individual insects are blind. He then carried out a simple but fascinating experiment. He took a large steel plate several feet wider and higher than the termitary and drove it right through the center of the breach so that it divided the mound, and indeed the entire termitary, into two separate parts:

The builders on one side of the breach know nothing of those on the other side. In spite of this the termites build a similar arch or tower on both sides of the plate. When eventually you withdraw the plate, the two halves match perfectly after the dividing cut has been repaired. We cannot escape the ultimate conclusion that somewhere there exists a preconceived plan which the termites merely execute.

From the present point of view, such a plan would exist within the morphic field of the colony as a whole. By morphic resonance, this would contain a collective memory of all similar termite colonies in the past, as well as a memory of the colony's own past, by self-resonance. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
73:The difference between the Platonic theory and the morphic-resonance hypothesis can be illustrated by analogy with a television set. The pictures on the screen depend on the material components of the set and the energy that powers it, and also on the invisible transmissions it receives through the electromagnetic field. A sceptic who rejected the idea of invisible influences might try to explain everything about the pictures and sounds in terms of the components of the set – the wires, transistors, and so on – and the electrical interactions between them. Through careful research he would find that damaging or removing some of these components affected the pictures or sounds the set produced, and did so in a repeatable, predictable way. This discovery would reinforce his materialist belief. He would be unable to explain exactly how the set produced the pictures and sounds, but he would hope that a more detailed analysis of the components and more complex mathematical models of their interactions would eventually provide the answer. Some mutations in the components – for example, by a defect in some of the transistors – affect the pictures by changing their colours or distorting their shapes; while mutations of components in the tuning circuit cause the set to jump from one channel to another, leading to a completely different set of sounds and pictures. But this does not prove that the evening news report is produced by interactions among the TV set’s components. Likewise, genetic mutations may affect an animal’s form and behaviour, but this does not prove that form and behaviour are programmed in the genes. They are inherited by morphic resonance, an invisible influence on the organism coming from outside it, just as TV sets are resonantly tuned to transmissions that originate elsewhere. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,
74:Even single cells have astonishing regenerative abilities. Acetabularia, the mermaid’s wineglass, is a single-celled green alga about five centimeters long, with three main parts: root-like structures called rhizoids that attach it to a rock, a stem and a cap about a centimeter wide (Figure 5.2). This very large cell has a single nucleus in one of the rhizoids. As the plant grows, its stem lengthens, it forms a series of whorls of hairs that later drop off, and finally forms the cap. If the cap is cut off by snipping the stem in two, after the cut has healed, a new tip grows and the stem forms a series of whorls of hairs and then a new cap, in a similar way to the normal pattern of growth. This can happen over and over again if the cap is cut off repeatedly.2 As discussed in the following chapter, the usual assumption is that genes somehow control or “program” the development of form, as if the nucleus, containing the genes, is a kind of brain controlling the cell. But Acetabularia shows that morphogenesis can take place without genes. If the rhizoid containing the nucleus is cut off, the alga can stay alive for months, and if the cap is cut off, it can regenerate a new one. Even more remarkable, if a piece is cut out of the stem, after the cuts have healed, a new tip grows from the end where the cap used to be and makes a new cap (Figure 5.2).3 Morphogenesis is goal-directed, and moves toward a morphic attractor even in the absence of genes. FIGURE 5.2. Regeneration of the alga Acetabularia mediterranea, an unusually large single-celled organism, up to 5cm tall, containing a green cap at the top of a long stalk, anchored at the base by root-like rhizoids. There is a large nucleus (shown as a black oval) in the basal part of the cell. When the stalk is cut off near the bottom, the basal part of the cell regenerates a new stalk and cap (shown on the right). When a part of the upper stalk is cut out, it grows a new cap and more stalk, even though it contains no nucleus. ~ Rupert Sheldrake,

IN CHAPTERS [2/2]



   1 Integral Yoga






1.03 - Preparing for the Miraculous, #Preparing for the Miraculous, #George Van Vrekhem, #Integral Yoga
  tists like David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake or Ilya Prigogine,
  is now more and more accepted by scientific orthodoxy

Blazing P3 - Explore the Stages of Postconventional Consciousness, #unset, #Arthur C Clarke, #Fiction
  Where seen: David Bohms theories; Rupert Sheldrakes work on morphic fields; Gandhis
  ideas of pluralistic harmony; Mandelas pluralistic integration; integral-holistic systems

WORDNET














IN WEBGEN [10000/0]




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