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object:JRE 1236 - Jack Dorsey
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FULL TRANSCRIPT: Joe Rogan Experience #1236 Jack Dorsey (transcribed by
Sonix)

Joe Rogan: Three, two, one, boom. Hello, Jack.

Jack Dorsey: What's up?

Joe Rogan: Nice to meet you, man.

Jack Dorsey: Nice to meet you, finally.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. Keep this sucker like a fist from your face.

Jack Dorsey: Got it.

Joe Rogan: Good. First of all. dude, you started a company. When you
started Twitter, when you guys first started, did you have any idea
Well, there's no way you could have had any idea what it would be now.

Jack Dorsey: No.

Joe Rogan: But one of the things I always try to emphasize with people
when people are like, "Twitter's crazy," I'm like, "How could it not be
crazy? There's never been anything like it before." Like imagine trying
to predict the kind of impact The President of the United States uses
Twitter to threaten other countries.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: I mean, who the fuck saw that coming?

Jack Dorsey: Not us.

Joe Rogan: Nobody saw that coming.

Jack Dorsey: Not us.

Joe Rogan: What did you think it was going to be when you first did it?

Jack Dorsey: Well, you know, we were building this thing for ourselves.
And that's how everything starts. We wanted to use it. We wanted to
stay connected with each other. We-

Joe Rogan: Like a group text almost?

Jack Dorsey: Like a group text. We loved our phones. We loved
technology. We actually started this as a hack week project out of a
failed company called Odeo. It's podcasting.

Joe Rogan: I remember that. I remember Odeo.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. Super early on. We were really creative folks, but
we weren't that passionate about where podcasting was going in our
particular domain. And we just got a lot of competition early on.
iTunes just released a podcast directory, but we knew we wanted to work
together. We knew we love this idea of one-button publishing, we love
this idea of collaboration, we love this idea of being anywhere, and
being able to share what was happening. That was the idea. I mean, that
was it, and that's what we wanted it to be.

Jack Dorsey: And I think the most beautiful and, also, sometimes,
uncomfortable aspect of Twitter is we really learned what it wanted to
be, and the people helped create it. Like everything that we hold
sacred now, the @ symbol, the hashtag, the retweet, those were not
invented by me or the company. Those were things that we discovered,
things that we discovered people using. And we just observed it, and we
noticed what they were trying to do. They're trying to talk with one
another. They were trying to collect tweets around topics with a
hashtag.

Joe Rogan: Has anybody figured out when the first use of hashtag
something was created?

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, it was actually our Lead Designer, Robert Anderson,
who leads our design of the Cash App. Hired him for a Square later on,
but he was the first one. He was actually communicating with his
brother, and he put @Buzz. His brother's name is Buzz. And it just
spread. It wasn't en masse, but people were doing it.

Jack Dorsey: But what was most interesting is not what they're doing,
but what they wanted to do with it. They wanted to address each other.
And that changed the company completely. That changed the service
because it went from just broadcasting what's happening to conversation
and to being able to address anyone publicly out in the open, which,
came with it, a lot of power and, also, a lot of issues as well.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. The use of hashtags, like looking up #Fryfest or
hashtag Anytime that something weird that's in the news, that's such
a unique way to find things. But to go on Twitter and to utilize that,
it's I mean, it's interesting that this guy just did it just to
contact his brother.

Jack Dorsey: Well, that was the @ symbol. The hashtag was this guy,
Chris Messina.

Joe Rogan: Oh, different guy.

Jack Dorsey: And he was trying to tag around topics that he was
tweeting about. And, again, that spread. All we did was made it easier.
We made it more accessible. We enabled everyone to do it. With the @
symbol, we made a page that collected all mentions of your name. With
the hashtag, we allowed people to search immediately, so you could tap
on the keyword, and you would see everyone talking about that or
tweeting about that specific hashtag. So, these things were just
emergent behaviors that we didn't predict, and they became the
lifeblood of the service.

Joe Rogan: What's fascinating to me about something like Twitter or
even something like YouTube is that there's not a lot of other ones
like it. There's just this one thing.

Jack Dorsey: Absolutely.

Joe Rogan: Like how does that happen-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: where this one thing sort of gets adopted by everybody and
takes over, and then just becomes these overwhelmingly massive
platform? I mean, there's really Here's Vimeo and there's a few other
videos services, but nothing on the scale of YouTube. And that's the
same thing with Twitter. There's nothing on the scale of distri buting
information in a quick, short, 280-character form like that.

Jack Dorsey: I don't think we could plan for it. I don't think we could
necessarily build for that. Someone said recently too, we just gathered
a bunch of our leadership last week in Palm Springs for an offsite, and
someone said recently that Twitter was discovered. And I think what's
behind all that is that it hit something foundational. It hit something
essential. And my co-founder, Biz, likes to say that Twitter can never
be uninvented. It's here. It changed everything, but the use of it has
been revolutionary.

Jack Dorsey: And it's just a simple idea of if you could text with the
entire world, if you could actually reach anyone in the world, or
anyone could see what you're thinking, which I think is also the
beautiful thing about text and the medium, you can actually get
someone's raw thoughts, and anyone in the world can see that
instantaneously. It becomes a subconscious. It becomes this like global
consciousness. And it gets to some really deep places in society. And
some of those places are pretty uncomfortable.

Joe Rogan: Well, it also gets to some really deep places
psychologically. There's a weirdness to it, right? There's a weirdness
to-

Jack Dorsey: Definitely.

Joe Rogan: sending text particularly @anonymously, and there's so
many accounts that are just an egg.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: There's so many accounts where they're clearly designed.
Like sometimes, someone will twit something mean to me, and I'm like,
"Hmm, I wonder what this person's up to?" So, I go to their site, and
it's just them tweeting mean shit at people all day long. Like it's
probably some angry person at work, and they're like, "I'm just going
to find people and fuck with them all day."

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Did you realize or when did you realize I'm sure you're
aware of it. When did you realize that this was almost out of your
control in terms of the scale of it?

Jack Dorsey: There wasn't one moment. There wasn't one moment that it
just felt completely resonant. It's unfolded into the next thing, and
the next used case, and it just keeps surprising us with how people are
using it. You know, it definitely Recently, I think, we've identified
some of the areas of the service that we need to pay a lot more
attention to.

Jack Dorsey: Twitter is unique, and that it has two main spaces. One,
which is your timeline. And those are the people that you follow. And
when you follow someone, they've earned that audience. And then, it has
this other world where anyone can insert themselves into the
conversation. They can actually mention you, and you'll see that
without asking for it. You can insert yourself into hashtags, into
search, and these are areas that people have taken advantage of, and
these are the areas that people have gamed our systems to, in some
cases, artificially amplify it but, also, just to spread a lot of
things that weren't possible with a velocity that they're not possible
before.

Joe Rogan: Now, when this is all happening, what's the conversation
like at Twitter? When you're recognizing that this is happening, that
people are gaming the system, like, what do How do you guys How do
you mitigate it? What's the discussion?

Jack Dorsey: Well, early on, it was pretty surface level like, how do
we change some of the app dynamics? But more recently, we're trying to
go a lot deeper and asking ourselves a question. When people open
Twitter, what are we incentivizing? What are we telling them to do when
they open up this app? We may not explicitly be doing that, but there's
something that we're saying without being as clear about it. So, what
does the like button incentivize? What does the retweet incentivize?
What does the number of followers and making that number big and bold
incentivize?

Jack Dorsey: So, I'm not sure what we should not I'm not sure if we
should incentivize anything, but we need to understand what that is.
And I think, right now, we do incentivize a lot of echo chambers
because we don't make it easy for people to follow interests and
topics. It's only accounts. We incentivize a lot of outrage and hot
takes because of some of the dynamics in the service not allowing a lot
of nuance and conversation earlier on.

Jack Dorsey: Pseudonyms, this ability to not use your real name,
incentivizes some positive things like it allows for whistleblowers and
journalists who might fear for their career or, even worse, their life
and under certain regimes but, also, allows for people, like the
example you mentioned, of just random fire and spread of abuse and
harassment throughout.

Jack Dorsey: So, those are the things that we're looking at. And how do
we enable more of the conversation to evolve? How do we increase the
credibility or reputation of accounts? How do we identify credible
voices within a particular domain? Not just through this very coarse,
grain, blue, verified badge, but if you're an expert in a particular
topic how do we recognize that in real time and show that, so that we
can provide more context to who you're talking to, and if you want to
engage in a deeper conversation or just ignore, mute, or block them?

Joe Rogan: But what is the conversation like while you're at work? Like
when you're realizing that all this stuff is happening, and you're
realizing that, now I mean, particularly, because the president uses
it so often. It's such a I mean, it's his preferred platform for
communicating with the people, I mean, even more so than addresses.
It's very strange.

Joe Rogan: What's the conversation like in the office when you're
trying to figure out, "Hey, what's our responsibility here? Like, how
are we supposed to handle this? How do we-" I mean, in some ways, what
Twitter is doing is it's really kind of it's flavoring the public
narrative. It's flavoring the way we communicate with each other in our
culture worldwide.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. I mean, the conversation has definitely evolved. I
think, in the past, we just got super reactive. We were reacting to all
the negative things that we're seeing, and that led to a lot of
short-term thinking. More recently, we've just looked much deeper. We
don't react to the present day. We look for some of the patterns.

Jack Dorsey: And, you know, we have a company that is not just serving
the people of this particular country, the United States. This is
global. We have global leaders all around the world using us in
different ways. Some, with a higher velocity. Some recognize more the
power. Some put out statements. Some lead conversations. But it's
looking at all those dynamics and not trying to hyper focus on any one,
a particular one, because if we do, we're only building it for one
portion of the population or only one perceived present-day crisis.

Joe Rogan: But what I'm trying to get at was like, okay, when things
come up, like, say, if you find out that there's people from ISIS that
are using Twitter, and they're using Twitter and posting things, like,
what is the conversation like? How do What do we do about this? Do we
leave this up? Do we recognize this is free speech? Do we only take it
down if they're calling for murder or hate speech? Like, what How do
you handle that?

Jack Dorsey: Well, it evolves, I mean, because we first saw ISIS when
the world saw ISIS. And we needed to change our policy to deal with it.

Joe Rogan: What was the initial reaction to it? So, once you realized
that people from ISIS were making Twitter accounts, and they were
trying to recruit people, and doing all these things, what was the
thought process?

Jack Dorsey: It's the question, like, what are we going to do about
this?

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: We haven't experienced this before. We need to-

Joe Rogan: Nobody has. I mean, you're essentially pioneers.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, but there are people who have experienced it in
different forms and different mediums. So, we reach out to our
government partners and friends and to our law enforcement partners. We
reached out to our peer companies to ask if they're seeing the same
things that we're seeing. We have a bunch of civil societies that we
talk to to get their take on it as well. And we try to balance that
across, you know, varied spectrums, whether it'd be, you know, more
organizations that are more focused on preventing online harassment,
all the way to the ACLU and EFF who are protecting the First Amendment
online.

Jack Dorsey: So, we try to get as many perspectives as possible, take
that, and then make some informed decisions, but also realize that
we're probably going to make some mistakes along the way, and all we
can do to correct some of that is just be open about where we are. And
that's probably where we failed the most in the past is we just haven't
been open about our thinking process, what led to particular decisions,
how our Terms of Service evolve. In Terms of Service as an area in our
industry, it's just a it's a mess. No one reads them.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: You know, you sign up for these services, and you quickly
hit accept.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: And we expect people to read these rules of the road, but
they haven't read them, and-

Joe Rogan: Have you ever read them?

Jack Dorsey: I have read them read.

Joe Rogan: You've read your own.

Jack Dorsey: I've read-

Joe Rogan: Have you read Facebook's?

Jack Dorsey: I haven't read Facebook's.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. You-

Jack Dorsey: I'm not on Facebook.

Joe Rogan: You're not on it?

Jack Dorsey: I'm not on Facebook.

Joe Rogan: Wow. Fuck Facebook, right? No, I'm just kidding. What about
Instagram, you've read theirs?

Jack Dorsey: I was in the first 10 users of Instagram.

Joe Rogan: Really?

Jack Dorsey: Kevin was an intern. Kevin Systrom was an intern at Odeo.
And I was one of the first investors of Instagram and love the service.
I don't think I've ever read their Terms of Service.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, even you.

Jack Dorsey: Even me. But I read ours, and one of the things I noticed
right away as, you know, you read our Terms of Service, and one of the
first things that we put at the top of the page was copyright and
intellectual property protections. You go down, and you scroll down,
and you see everything about violent threats, and abuse, and
harassment, and safety. And it's not that the company intended for that
to be the order. It's just we just added things going on.

Jack Dorsey: But even a read of that puts forth our point of view. Like
we're actually putting copyright infringement above the safety-

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: the physical safety of someone. So, we need to relook at
some of these things, and how they've evolved, and how they reacted,
and-

Joe Rogan: But is it above just because it's listed second? I mean,
they're essentially all in the same one sheet.

Jack Dorsey: They're on the one sheet.

Joe Rogan: When you bring it up, when you discuss it first, is that
really critical? They're all part of the Terms of Service.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, but I think that ordering matters. Like, what do we
consider to be most important?

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: And we have to consider physical safety to be that one
thing that we protect the most.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: And I-

Joe Rogan: So, physical threats.

Jack Dorsey: Physical threats.

Joe Rogan: Doxxing.

Jack Dorsey: Doxxing, anything that impinges on someone's physical
safety. This is an area where I don't think technology and services
like ours have focused on enough. We haven't focused on the
off-platform ramifications of what happens online.

Joe Rogan: So, what do you do, like, here's a good for instance. This
situation with this young kid who had the MAGA hat on, and the Native
American gentleman who was in front of him banging the drum. And then,
people are calling for this kid's name. They want his name, they want
his address, including Kathy Griffin. Like, how do you handle something
like that?

Jack Dorsey: Well-

Joe Rogan: Because that's essentially request for doxxing.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. And that is a new vector that we haven't seen en
masse. I mean, these are the cases that bring up entirely new things.
So, we have to study it. We have to see how we reacted, what happened
with the network. But this goes back to the incentives. Like we are
incentivizing this very quick reaction, and it's taking away from some
more of the, like, considered work that we need to do to really
diagnose what's happening in the moment. And it was It's such an
interesting case study to see how that evolved over just 48 hours. And-

Joe Rogan: Yes. That's one of the most fascinating news cycles or
stories in the news cycle in quite a while because it's nuanced.
There's many different levels to it.

Jack Dorsey: It's extremely nuanced, yeah.

Joe Rogan: And a lot of like really knee-jerk reactions.

Jack Dorsey: Totally, but we helped that.

Joe Rogan: How did you help it?

Jack Dorsey: Well, it's just that's how some of the dynamics of the
service work. And those are the things we control.

Joe Rogan: But is that how some of the dynamics of the service or is it
the way people choose to use the service? Like, if you are a thoughtful
person, you wouldn't just Like, for instance, the original image that
was distri buted came from an account that's now banned, right? And so,
it was discovered that that account was a troll account. How does that
happen? And what was the thought process behind that? Because the image
that they posted was a legitimate image. It really did happen. It was a
part of an actual occurring event. So, why did you ban the person or
the troll account that put it up?

Jack Dorsey: I don't know about this particular case, but it's likely
that it was found There's a lot of what you see on the surface of
Twitter, and some of the actions that we take on the surface, but where
we spend a lot of our enforcement is actually what's happening
underneath. So, in many cases, we have trolls or people, like the case
that you mentioned, whose sole purpose is just to harass, or abuse, or
spread particular information. And, oftentimes, these accounts might be
connected, or they start one account that gets banned, they start
another account. But we can actually see this through a network lens,
and we can actually see some of those behaviors. So, that might have
been one of the reasons. I'm not sure in that particular case but, you
know, the-

Joe Rogan: How do you know? Do you know because of IP addresses? Do you
know because of the-

Jack Dorsey: A variety of things. So, it could be trying to use the
same phone number or same e-mail address, IP addresses, device IDs, all
these things that we can use to judge what's happening within the
context. So, we do have a lot of occurrences of suspending or
temporarily suspending accounts because of activities across accounts.
And that happens a ton. But what I mean in that we're helping this
right now is like some of the incentives, like just imagine seeing that
unfold, and when you see someone with one take, it kind of embolden
something to follow along, and then this mob kind of rolls.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: So, there has to be a way for us to incentivize a lot more
considered and more nuanced introspection of what's going on.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, give everybody mushrooms. It's probably the only way.
I don't know. How are you going to get people to be more considerate? I
mean, what-

Jack Dorsey: Providing more context.

Joe Rogan: I mean, this is essentially your engineering social
behavior, right?

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, providing more context.

Joe Rogan: Providing more context. How so?

Jack Dorsey: Providing more context. Like, an example, let's say Brexit
for example.

Joe Rogan: Okay.

Jack Dorsey: So, if I followed a bunch of accounts, I like Boris
Johnson who is constantly giving me information about reasons to leave,
I would probably only see that perspective.

Joe Rogan: Nigel Farage.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. And those A lot of folks just will not follow
accounts that have a completely different perspective or a different
influence. A number of people do. Hopefully, journalists do. But most
people won't do that work. So, this is the only tool we give people:
follow an account. If, however, during that time you followed the
hashtag, you followed the hashtag #voteleave, 95% of the conversation
in the tweets you see are all reasons to leave, but there is a small
percentage that shows a different perspective and that shows a
different reasoning. We don't make it easy for anyone to do that. And
that is a loss-

Joe Rogan: Easy for anyone to follow-

Jack Dorsey: Follow the hashtag.

Joe Rogan: outside of perspective.

Jack Dorsey: Follow the hashtag, follow a topic, follow an interest.
And because of that, we help build an echo chamber and something that
doesn't really challenge any perspective. And not to say that we should
force it upon people, but we don't even make it easy for people to do
in the first place. So, the way you do that today is you go the
explorer tab, you look, you search for a hashtag, or you tap into a
hashtag, and you can see all the conversation.

Jack Dorsey: But that's work. And most people just won't do the work.
They'll stay in their timeline, and they'll see what they need to see,
and I can certainly imagine why if I'm just following a bunch of people
who have the exact same take on this, it just continues to embolden,
and embolden, and embolden, and they see nothing of a different
perspective on the exact same situation.

Joe Rogan: What's interesting to me is the difference between Twitter
and Instagram. Essentially, it's not just the photographs. What's weird
that has happened was there's shitty people on Instagram as well. I
mean, there's a lot of arguments and things along those lines, but they
don't overwhelm the initial post; whereas, with Twitter-

Jack Dorsey: Totally different surface.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Instagram is a post. I mean, it's a post that's not really
eliciting conversation. It's eliciting comments.

Joe Rogan: But not just that. It's difficult to follow the
conversations.

Jack Dorsey: I don't think there is a conversation. It's-.

Joe Rogan: Well, sometimes, there is. Sometimes, people are going back
and forth about a particular subject that's discussed in the initial
post, but it's not very clear.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Whereas with Twitter, it's only conversational.

Jack Dorsey: It's only conversation.

Joe Rogan: But even if there's a photograph, even if somebody posts a
photograph on Twitter and has conversation under it, the photograph
seems to be lack of secondary importance.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, it's super fluid and super messy too.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: But the thing is every On Instagram or any blog, you
have this post, the statement, and you have comments underneath;
whereas, with Twitter, everything is on the same surface.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: It's all one surface.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. My friend, Kurt Metzger, likes that about Facebook. He
says because in Twitter, he goes, "I post something, and then all these
fucking morons post something." And he goes You know Kurt, he's very
animated. He's like, "And their shit looks just like my shit. It's all
together, all piled up." He goes, "But if I post something on
Facebook," he goes, "I have this whole thing. Like this is the original
statement."

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, my control.

Joe Rogan: And then, underneath it, yeah, you fucking say whatever you
want, but no one's no one's reading.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Like they're reading the original initial post, and it's
clear that there's a differentiation between the initial post and the
secondary post.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. You know, there's room for both models, but this
conversation, most conversations, it's not you making a statement, and
me just reacting to that.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: Like our conversation of all of us based on what we say.
We can interrupt one another. We can-

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: You know, we can completely change the subject. I can take
control of the conversation. And the people who might find that
interesting follow it. And the folks that don't just stop listening;
whereas, you can't do that in a post-comment model.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. Also, text is so limited. I mean, it's great for just
getting on actual facts, but it's-

Jack Dorsey: Also thinking. It's just so close to thinking, right.
There's no composition.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: You know. And that, to me, is the most beautiful thing
about Twitter, but also something that, you know, can be uncomfortable.
Like I can compose my life on Instagram, I can compose my thoughts
within a Facebook post, and they can look so perfect, but the best to
Twitter is just super raw, and it's right to the thinking process. And
I just think that's so beautiful because it gets to consciousness. It
gets us something deeper. And I think that deeper-

Joe Rogan: Well, how so? How is it different than a post on Instagram
or a post on Facebook?

Jack Dorsey: The speed demands. You know, the character constraint, the
speed kind of just demands a more conscious, present, focused thinking
versus like stepping back and-

Joe Rogan: Composing a letter.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, and composing a letter, and thinking about all the
outcomes.

Joe Rogan: But, oftentimes, people do compose it as a letter, and they
break it up into separate 280-character posts.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, the thread.

Joe Rogan: What was the thought process in going from 140 to 280?
Because the one thing that I liked about 140 is you can't be verbose.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: You can't just ramble and, you know, like, it's great for
comics because it forces us to write jokes like with the economy of
words.

Jack Dorsey: Exactly. We found a lot of resonance with journalist
because of the headlines. We found a lot of resonance with comics
because of the rhythm. And we found a lot of resonance with hip hop as
well because of the bars, and just the structure, and the constraint
allowed that flow. The thinking was we looked at, you know, languages
around the world, and there's some languages like German, 140
characters, you can't really say much. You can't really say much at
all.

Joe Rogan: Right, because the words are so long.

Jack Dorsey: There are some languages like Japanese, 140 characters is
140 words. And what was interesting about Japan was Japan is one of our
largest countries where we're bigger than Facebook there. We're-

Joe Rogan: Are you not bigger than Facebook in America?

Jack Dorsey: No.

Joe Rogan: What the fuck? I don't even use Facebook. Sorry, Facebook.

Jack Dorsey: I don't either.

Joe Rogan: I mean, I use it in terms of if I post something on
Instagram, it goes to Facebook.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: But when I go to Facebook, it just seems like a lot of
Well, this does seem like Twitter too, a lot of arguing. But Twitter
seems to be more fun, if that makes any sense. Even though there's a
lot of chaos, when something One of my favorite things is when
someone posts something stupid, and then underneath it is a bunch of
GIFs. Do we says GIFs or GIFs? How do you say GIF? Does anybody know?

Male: Ask him.

Jack Dorsey: GIFs. GIFs.

Joe Rogan: How do you say?

Jack Dorsey: I say GIFs. I know it's juries out.

Joe Rogan: A bunch of GIFs that are hilarious.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Like I was just mocking someone relentlessly. Like that is
one of my favorite things about Twitter. When someone, like Donald
Trump posts something ridiculous, and then I'll go, and I'll look at
the responses, like, "Baaaa." How do you care?

Jack Dorsey: It's a public conversation. You can-.

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: You can see how everyone react, but like it's all The
interesting thing about Twitter is there's not one Twitter. It's like
you have politics Twitter, which can be super toxic. You have sports
Twitter, you have NBA Twitter, you have MMA Twitter, you have a UFC
Twitter, you have KPop Twitter, you have e-sports, whatever.

Joe Rogan: Black sports.

Jack Dorsey: You have black Twitter.

Joe Rogan: That's Jaime's. Jaime loves black Twitter.

Jack Dorsey: You have all these different twitters, and you have a
completely different experience-

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: based on what Twitter you follow-

Joe Rogan: Sure.

Jack Dorsey: and what Twitter you participate in.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Some of them are like super engaging, super funny. Some of
them are you want to walk away from it.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. I got to a certain point where I couldn't read replies
anymore. I just, "Hmm." It's just Not that it's that toxic. The vast
majority of interactions I have with people are super positive.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: I mean, absolutely like more than 99%. But it's I didn't
I don't have time, and I don't have time to be constantly responding to
people. And it just didn't The sheer numbers. I think when I got
around 3 million-ish followers I'm like, "I can't do this anymore."
It's just it's overwhelming. Like I don't have the resources.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. I am a huge believer in serendipity. So, you look at
your replies once, and you might see something that just like strikes
you, and that's enough. You don't need to read through all of them.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, sometimes.

Jack Dorsey: And it's just-

Joe Rogan: But then, you might miss something groovy.

Jack Dorsey: You might, but I also believe the most important things
come back up.

Joe Rogan: What I used to do a lot, I would go through my mentions. And
when people would essentially use that as almost a news aggregator.
I'll go through my mentions that people would post cool stories, and I
would retweet those. And so, because people knew that I would retweet
them, they would send me a lot of cool stuff. So, because of that,
because it's reciprocating, I got a lot of really cool stuff sent my
way.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're pushing. You're pushing more out
to expand the network.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. And I reinforced it. I just I wanted to thank people
for posting cool stuff, and they love the fact they would get a
retweet. And so, they would send me like interesting science stories
or, you know, very bizarre nature stories. And I'd just be retweeting
them all the time. Go to But then, after a while, I'm like, "This is
a lot of time." It's a lot of time. So, now, essentially, what I do is
I just post something and I'm just kind of like, "Ugh." I just walk
away.

Jack Dorsey: But that, I mean, that speaks to what we want to
incentivize more. We want more people contri buting things back to the
network, back to the-

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Back to the public conversation. And I know it doesn't
feel like this today for most people, but my ideal is someone walks
away from Twitter learning something, and they're actually learning
something entirely new.

Joe Rogan: I think that happens a lot.

Jack Dorsey: And it might be a new perspective.

Joe Rogan: That happens a lot.

Jack Dorsey: It probably happens more often than we think.

Joe Rogan: Depending on who you follow.

Jack Dorsey: Exactly.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: It's all dependent on the Twitter you follow. And like,
you know, the health Twitter is amazing. You know, I learned some. Like
I followed Rhonda Patrick and a bunch of folks who are into sauna.

Joe Rogan: She's amazing. Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: And Wim Hof and [Ice Bess] and Ben Greenfield. And you
just follow them, and you just get all this new information about
alternative views of how to stay healthy, how to live longer. And I
can't find that anywhere else-

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: in one place like that.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: And then, it's not just them broadcasting. When they
retweet something or when they tweet something, there's a whole
conversation about it. So, you know, some people say this is you
know, "This has not been my experience," or "This is not true for me,"
or "Actually, have you seen this connected thing?" And I just go down
this rabbit hole, and I learn so much. But that's not the experience
for everyone. ***

Joe Rogan: No. Well, yeah, it's not the experience for everyone, and
it's not really I don't think it's what everyone wants either.
Sometimes, people just like to go on there and talk shit.

Jack Dorsey: That's true.

Joe Rogan: I mean, someone that's trapped in a cubicle right now, and
they just want to go in there, and get in arguments about gun control
or, you know, whether or not Nancy Pelosi is the devil. And this is-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: This is what You know, it serves a purpose for them.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: The thing that gets strange though is who's to decide. You
know, there's this concept There's a discussion, I should say, where
some people believe that things like Twitter, or Facebook, or any forum
where you're having a public discussion should be considered almost
like a public utility. Like anyone has access to the electric power.
Even if you are You know, even if you're a racist, you still can get
electricity. And some people think that you should have that same
ability with something like Twitter or the same ability with something
like Instagram. Obviously, this is We're in uncharted territory. And
you-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: You are in uncharted territory.

Jack Dorsey: Totally.

Joe Rogan: Just no one has been there before. So, who makes the
distinctions? When you see someone that it's saying something that you
might think is offensive to some folks but not offensive to the person
who's saying it, maybe the person who's saying it feels like they need
to express themselves, and this is important to say, and how do you
decide whether or not this is a valid discussion, or if this is "hate
speech," which is You know there's some things that are hate speech,
and there's sometimes people who use the term hate speech, and it's
just a cheap way to shut down a conversation.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. So, the simple answer is we look at conduct. We
don't look at the speech itself, we look at conduct. We look at how the
tool is being used. And you're right in that, like, I think when people
see Twitter, they see and they expect it to be a public square. They
can go into that public square, they can say whatever they want, they
can get on a pedestal, and people might gather around them, and listen
to what they have to say. Some of them might find it offensive and they
leave. The difference is there's, also, this concept of this megaphone.
And the megaphone can be highly targeted now with Twitter as well.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: So, it's not the speech. It's how it's amplified.

Joe Rogan: So, what do you do if, like, say Let's say there's someone
in the media. Let's say it's a prominent feminist. And then, you have a
bunch of people or let's say just one person, and their Twitter feed is
overwhelmingly attacking this prominent feminist. Just constantly a
tagger, calling her a liar, calling her this, calling her that. When do
you decide this is harassment? When do you decide this is hate speech?
Like, how do you I mean, this is-

Jack Dorsey: We look at the context.

Joe Rogan: This is a fictional account, right?

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan: Fictional person we're talking about. But in this for
instance, what would dictate something that was egregious enough for
you to eliminate them from your platform?

Jack Dorsey: Well, that's a heavy action. So, that's the last resort.
But we look at the conduct. We look at Oftentimes, as you said, the
probability of someone who is harassing one person, it's highly
probable that they're also harassing 10 more people.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: So, we can look at that behavior. We can look at how many
times this person is being blocked, or muted, or reported. And based on
all those, all that data, we can actually take some action. But we also
have to We have to correlate it with the other side of that because
people go on, and they coordinate blocks as well, and they coordinate
harassment, and they coordinate I'm sorry not harassment but
reporting. Reporting a particular account to get it shut down and to
take the voice off the service.

Jack Dorsey: So, these are the considerations we have to make, but it
all starts with conduct. And, oftentimes, we'll see coordinated
conduct, whether it'd be that one person opening multiple accounts or
coordinating with multiple accounts that they don't own to go after
someone. And there's a bunch of vectors that people use retweet for
that, the "tweet" for that a lot as well. Like they'll quote tweet a
tweet that someone finds, and they'll say, "Look at this idiot.
Twitter, do your thing." And then just this mob starts, and goes, and
tries to effectively shut that person down.

Jack Dorsey: So, there's a bunch of tools we can use. The permanent
suspension is the last resort. One of the things that we can do is we
can down-rank the replies. So, any of these behaviors and conduct that
looked linked, we can actually push farther down in the reply chain.
So, it's all still there, but you might have to push a button to
actually see it. You might have to show more replies to actually see
this harassing account or what might look like harassing language.

Joe Rogan: And this is manually done or this-

Jack Dorsey: No, no, no. This is all automated.

Joe Rogan: It's automated?

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan: But how would you know?

Jack Dorsey: A lot of the ranking, and looking at amplification, and
looking at the network is automated.

Joe Rogan: Right. Like in terms of down-ranking, is there a discussion
as to whether or not this person's reply should be down-ranked? How do
you figure that out?

Jack Dorsey: It's a machine learning and deep learning model and they
just-

Joe Rogan: Whoa. So, it's AI?

Jack Dorsey: It's AI, and they learn.

Joe Rogan: Oh, Christ.

Jack Dorsey: And we look at how these things are doing, and where they
make mistakes, and then we improve it. It's just constantly improving,
constantly learning.

Joe Rogan: Does that feel like censorship to you, like automated
censorship? Because, I mean, who is to decide other than people whether
or not something is valid?

Jack Dorsey: Well, we're not looking at the speech in this particular
case. We're looking at the conduct.

Joe Rogan: The conduct.

Jack Dorsey: The conduct of someone in fast velocity attacking someone
else.

Joe Rogan: Okay.

Jack Dorsey: Right. So, those are the things that our technology
allows. It changes the velocity. It changes how to broadcast a message
that someone didn't really ask for and didn't want to hear. We don't
touch If I follow Joe Rogan, you'll see every single tweet. We don't
touch it. Right?

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: But that's an audience that you earn. But in your replies
page, we have a little bit more room because this is a conversation
that starts up, and some people just want to disrupt it. And all we're
saying is we're going to look and move in the disruption down. Not that
it's hidden, but it's still there, but you just see it a little bit
further down.

Joe Rogan: Like, there was What was the instance with Ari? I should
text him right now, get him to answer me in real time. But Ari Shaffir
got kicked off Twitter because he said something to Bert like, "Bert,
I'm going to fucking kill you." Bert Kreischer, being our good friend,
all of us are good friends, and he's like, "You fucking dummy, I want
to kill you," or something like that.

Male: He took his record albums. He said like, "I'm going to steal and
break them all." He jokingly got mad.

Joe Rogan: Right, right, right.

Male: That's Ari though.

Joe Rogan: Bert was I think it was all bullshit, right?

Male: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan: I don't mean Bert really stole his records.

Male: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He kept them. Yeah, he gave them back to him
eventually.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Male: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: He's like< "I'm going to fucking kill you."

Jack Dorsey: So, what happened or probably happened, and I'm not sure
of that particular case, but what probably what happened there is
someone might have reported that tweet. One of our agents, human agent,
without context of their friendship or that relationship, saw it as a
violent threat and took action on that.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: And those are the mistakes that we're going to make.
That's why we need an appeals process.

Joe Rogan: Or Bert needs to keep his fucking greasy hands off Aris'
records, right?

Jack Dorsey: That's probably not going to happen. We need to make sure
that we're reacting the right way.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Like, look, we're going to make mistakes. We're trying to
  The problem with the system right now is most of the work and the
burden is actually on the victims of abuse while they're getting
harassed. So, a lot of our system doesn't enforce or act unless these
tweets are reported, right? So, we don't take suspension actions or
removal of content actions unless it's reported.

Jack Dorsey: The algorithms rank and order the conversation, but they
don't take suspension actions. They don't remove content. They might
suggest to a human to look at this, who might look at our rules, and
look at the content, and try to look at the context of the
conversation, and then take action. But we would like to move towards a
lot more automated enforcement.

Jack Dorsey: But more importantly, how do we highlight? How do we
amplify more of the healthier discussion and conversation? Again, not
removing it. We're going to a world, especially with technology like
blockchain that all content that exist, that is ever created will exist
forever. You won't be able to take it down. You won't be able to censor
it. It won't be centralized at all.

Jack Dorsey: Our role is around what we recommend based on your
interest, and based on who you follow, and helping you to get into that
on ramp. But if you look at the arc of technology, it's a given that
anytime something is created, it's going to exist forever. This is what
blockchain helps enable down the line. And we need to make sure that
we're paying attention to that, and also realizing that our role is
like, how do we get people the stuff that they really want to see, and
they find valuable, that they'll learn from, that will make them think,
that will help them evolve the conversation as well.

Joe Rogan: Now, when you say amplify the messages that you deemed to be
more positive, right, like how do you decide that?

Jack Dorsey: People decide it.

Joe Rogan: People decide.

Jack Dorsey: People decide it based on like, "Are they engaging in
replies? Are they retweeting it? Are they liking it?" Are they-

Joe Rogan: But, sometimes, it's really negative. Like, sometimes, the
people that are engaging in it, engaging, they're attacking someone.
So, is that valuable, or is it just unfortunate?

Jack Dorsey: It's valuable. I mean, every signal is something that we
can learn from, and we can act on. But it's going to constantly evolve.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: I mean, these models that we have to build will constantly
have to learn what the network is doing and how people are using it.
And our goal is healthy contri bution back to the public conversation.
That is what we want. We want to encourage people into more bigger,
informative, global conversations that they will learn from.

Joe Rogan: Are you constantly aware of how much this is changing
society, and that you are one of the four or five different modalities
that are radically changing society? Whether it's Facebook, or
Instagram, or any of these social media companies, it's radically
changing the way people communicate with each other. There's a giant
impact on the way human beings talk and see each other. And the way we
process ideas and the way we distri bute information is unprecedented.
There's never been anything like that before. And you setting up
something that you think it's going to be a group chat.

Joe Rogan: Do you member the early days when you would say like "@Jack
is going to the movies." You would say it. Like, that's how we would
say it. I would say "@JoeRogan is on his way to dinner."

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: That's how people would do it.

Jack Dorsey: The status.

Joe Rogan: It's fucking it was weird-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: that somewhere along the line, that morphed, and it's-

Jack Dorsey: It morphed because that's what the world wanted to do with
it.

Joe Rogan: That's what they wanted to do with it.

Jack Dorsey: That's where they wanted to take it.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: And I just think it's so reflective of what the world is
and, in some cases, what the world wants to be.

Joe Rogan: So, it's a pathway for thinking. Just a pathway for people
to get their thoughts out, but a really a powerful one, an
unprecedented method of distri buting information. It's really nothing
ever been like this before.

Jack Dorsey: No, no. And it won't. This mode of communicating will not
go away. It will just get faster. It will become a lot more connected.
And that's why our work is so critical to figure out some of the
dynamics at play, that make it that cause more negative outcomes and
positive outcomes.

Joe Rogan: I think about it because Well, I think about it because
it's just a hugely, significant thing. But I also think about it
because of podcasts because podcasts are in a similar way. Just no one
saw it coming, and the people that are involved in it are like, "What
the fuck are we doing?"

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Like me, I'm like, "What am I doing? What is this?".

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Like, for me, it's like, "Oh boy, I get to talk to guys like
Ben Greenfield, and Jonathan Haidt, and all these different people to
learn some stuff." And I've clearly learned way more from doing this
podcast than I ever would have learned without it. No doubt about it,
unquestionably. But I didn't fucking plan this.

Joe Rogan: So, now, all the sudden, there's this signal that I'm
sending out to millions and millions of people. And then, people are
like, "Well, you have a responsibility." I'm like, "Oh great." Well, I
didn't want that. I didn't want a responsibility to what I distri bute.
I just want to be able to have a freak show, just talk to people, like
whatever. There's certain people that I have on whether it's Alex Jones
or anyone that's controversial where people will get fucking mad. "Why
are you giving this person a platform?" I go, "Okay. Hmm, I didn't
think about it that way and, and I don't think that's what I'm doing. I
think I'm talking to people and you can listen."

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: But it's giving that person a platform because they're
saying, "Well, no, they'll tone down." Like Milo Yiannopoulos, that was
one of the arguments people gave me. Like he toned down his platform
when he was on your show, so you could get more people to pay attention
to him. I'm like, "Okay, but he also talked about-" That was one of the
reasons why he was exposed was my show because he talked about that
it's okay to have sex with underaged boys if they're gay because there
was like a mentor relationship between the older gay man and the
younger, and people were like, "What the fuck are you talking about?"

Joe Rogan: And that was a big part of why he's been removed from the
public conversation. That was one of the things. And then, there's the
discussion like, "Well, what is that? What is removing someone from the
public conversation? If someone is very popular, and they have all
these people that like to listen to them, what is the responsibility of
these platforms, whether it's YouTube, or Twitter, or anyone. What is
their responsibility to decide whether or not someone should or
shouldn't be able to speak?"

Joe Rogan: And this is a thing that I've been struggling with, and it
bounced around inside my own head, and I see that you guys struggle
with it, and pretty much everyone does. Youtube does. And it is a
hugely significant discussion that is left to a very relatively small
amount of people. And this is why this discussion of what is social
media? Is it something and everybody has a right to, or is it something
that should be restricted to only people that are willing to behave and
carry themselves in a certain way?

Jack Dorsey: I believe it's something that everyone has a right to.

Joe Rogan: Everyone has a right to, but you still ban people. Let's say
like, Alex Jones. you guys were the last guys to keep Alex Jones on the
platform. You were the last ones.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: And I believe you hung in there until he started harassing
you personally, right?

Jack Dorsey: No, no, no, no. He did not-

Joe Rogan: He came to your house, he begged.

Jack Dorsey: No, no. You know, he did a very different things on our
platform versus the others.

Joe Rogan: Oh, okay.

Jack Dorsey: So, we saw this domino effect over a weekend of one
platform banning him, and then another, another, another in very, very
quick succession.

Joe Rogan: Right. And people, I think, would have assumed that we would
just have followed suit, but he didn't violate our Terms of Service.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: And afterwards, he did. And we have You know, we a
policy. And if there's a violation, we take enforcement actions. One
might be asking the account holder to delete the tweet. Another might
be a temporary suspension. Another might be a permanent suspension.

Joe Rogan: So, what you're saying So, like, let's use it in terms of
like him saying that Sandy Hook was fake. He did not say that on the
platform. He did not say that on Twitter. He only said that on his
show.

Jack Dorsey: I don't know all the mediums he said it in.

Joe Rogan: What did he do?

Jack Dorsey: What we're looking at is the conduct and what he did on
our platform.

Joe Rogan: So, what did he do on your platform that was like that you
all were in agreement that this is enough?

Jack Dorsey: I'm not sure what the actual, like, violations were. But
we have a set number of actions. And if they keep getting If an
account keeps violating Terms of Service, ultimately, it leads to
permanent suspension. And when all the other platforms are taking him
off, we didn't find those. We didn't find those violations, and they
weren't reported. But again, it goes back to a lot of our model. People
weren't reporting a lot of the tweets that may have been in violation
on our service, and we didn't act on them.

Joe Rogan: Right. Like a good instance is what's going on with Patreon.
I'm sure you're aware of the Sargon of Akkad thing. He did a podcast a
long time ago, I believe six months or so ago, where he used the
N-word, and the way he used it is actually against white nationalists.
And he also said a bunch of other stuff, and they decided, Patreon
decided that what he said on a podcast was enough for them to remove
him from the platform, even though he didn't do anything on their
platform that was egregious. And, also, they had previously stated that
they were only judging things that occurred on their platform.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: There's been a giant blow back because of that because
people are saying, "Well, now you're essentially policing, and not
based on his actions, just on concepts and the communication that he
was using, the way he was talking. You're eliminating him from being
able to make a living, and that you're doing this because he does not
fit into your political paradigm. The way you want to view the world,
he views the world differently. This is an opportunity for you to
eliminate someone who you disagree with."

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. I mean, I don't know the nuances of their policy,
but we have to pay attention to folks who are using Twitter to shut
down the voices of others.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: That's where it gets weaponized. And we also have to pay
attention to where people are using it that put other folks in physical
danger. And that is where we need to be most severe. But, otherwise,
everyone has a right to these technologies. And, I think, they also
have a right to make sure that they have a very simple and open read of
the rules. And we're not in a great state there. Our rules and our
enforcement can be extremely confusing to people.

Joe Rogan: What has been the one thing that came up that was perhaps
the most controversial? Like I know my friend, Sam Harris, was trying
to get you guys to ban Donald Trump and saying if you follow your Terms
of Service-

Jack Dorsey: I just did a podcast with him actually as well. It should
come out today or tomorrow.

Joe Rogan: He's a fascinating guy, Sam Harris. I love him to death. But
what he was trying to do was like saying, "Hey, he's threatening
nuclear war." Like, he's saying, "Hey, Korea, my bombs are bigger than
your bombs. Like what else does the guy have to do to get you to remove
him from the platform?" When you guys saw that, what was your reaction
to that? Was there an internal discussion about actually banning the
President United States?

Jack Dorsey: Well, so, two things there. One, it was the context that
presidents of this country have used similar language in different
mediums. They used it on radio, they used it on television. It's not
just through Twitter. And even if you were to look at the presidency of
Obama, it wasn't exactly the same tone in this exact same language, but
there were threats around the same country. And we have to take that
context into consideration.

Jack Dorsey: So, the second thing is that we need The most
controversial aspect of our rules and our Terms of Service is probably
this clause around public interest and newsworthiness, where powerful
figures or public figures might be in violation of our Terms of
Service, but the tweet itself is of public interest.

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: There should be a conversation around it. And that is
probably the thing that people disagree with the most and where we have
a lot of internal debate. But we also have some pretty hard lines. If
we had a global leader, including the President of United States, make
a violent threat against a private individual, we would take action. We
always have to balance that with like, "Is this something that the
public has interest in?" And I believe, generally, the answer is yes.
It's not going to be in every case but, generally, the answer is yes
because we should see how our leaders think and how they act.

Joe Rogan: And essentially, it all-

Jack Dorsey: That informs voting. That informs the-

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: conversation. That informs whether we think they're
doing the right job, or we think that they should be voted out.

Joe Rogan: Well, it's very important to see how someone uses that
platform. And when someone uses it the way he uses it, and then becomes
president, and continues to use it that way that's when people are
like, "What?"

Jack Dorsey: He's been consistent. I think he joined in 2009, 2012.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: You look at all of his tweets all the way back then, and
it's pretty consistent till today.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. I mean, he likes to insult people on Twitter. It's fun
for him.

Jack Dorsey: Yes, he does.

Joe Rogan: It's just I never thought he would keep doing it. I thought
once he became president, maybe just lock it down, try to do a good job
for the country. And then, after four years or eight years, just go
back to his old self, "Fuck you, fuck the world, fuck this," but no.
He's just It's just, in one way, it's hilarious. See, as a comedian,
I think it's awesome because it's so hilariously stupid. It's so
preposterous that he even has the time to talk about Jeff Bezos'
affair, and the fact that he got caught with the National Inquirer
getting text messages and calls him Jeff Bozo like, "Don't you have
shit to do man?"

Joe Rogan: But as a comedian, I am a gigantic fan of folly, almost
against my better judgment. I like watching. I like watching disasters.
I like watching chaos. When I see nonsense like that, I'm like, "Oh
Jesus". I'm drawn like a moth to a flame. But on the other part of me
is like. "Man, this sets a very bizarre tone for the entire country,"
because one of things about Obama, like Obama or hate Obama because
he was very measured, very articulate, obviously, very well-educated.
And I think that that aspect of his presidency was very good for all of
us because he represented something that was of a very high standard in
terms of his ability to communicate, his access to words, the way he
measured his words, and held himself. I think that's good for us. Like
yeah-

Jack Dorsey: It's aspirational.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. It's like, "Look at that guy. He's talking better than
me, That's why he's the president." But when you see Trump, you're
like, "He doesn't talk better than me. He doesn't use Twitter better.
He's not He's just this fucking mad man."

Jack Dorsey: But isn't it important to understand that-

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: and to see it-

Joe Rogan: Exactly.

Jack Dorsey: and like to Hopefully, that informs opinions and
actions.

Joe Rogan: 100%. That's my point. That's my point is like that this is
this weird gray area where I think, overall, I definitely support your
decision to not ban him for violating your Terms of Service. Like we
need to know.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: You know, and it's How do you know how many accounts are
bots? How do you know how many accounts are from a Russian troll farm?

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Like how do you know that?

Jack Dorsey: So, this is really challenge and something that we're
trying to wrap our heads around, but like one of the things we're
trying to do is like let's scope that problem down a bit. Let's use the
technology we have available to us, like face ID, like touch ID, like
the biometric stuff to identify the humans. Let's identify the humans
first.

Joe Rogan: So, how do you use that because face ID not really
available? Is it available to you guys? You just leaked something you
shouldn't have told me?

Jack Dorsey: No, no, no, no. We haven't used it yet, but you can use it
for things like, is this a human operating this?

Joe Rogan: It's like Apple Pay, you can use it for that, so.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, it's completely locked into the local device. We
don't have access to your images, to your face, or whatnot, but the
operating system can tell us that this is the legit owner of this
phone; and therefore, it is human. And technology always has to change.
People find ways around that and whatnot. But if we go the opposite
direction, and we look for the bots, the problem with looking for the
bots is people assume that they just come through our API, but the
scripting has become extremely sophisticated. People can script the
app, can script the website, and make it look very, very human.

Jack Dorsey: So, we're going after this problem, first, trying to
identify the humans as much as we can, utilizing these technologies.
None of this is live right now. These are considerations that we're
making and trying to understand, like what the impact would be and how
we might evolve it. But we need to because that information would
provide context for someone like this is an actual human that I'm
talking to. And I can invest more time in it, or I can just ignore the
thing because it's meaningless.

Joe Rogan: Now, is Apple willing to share that with you. I mean, when
you're talking about biometrics, fingerprints, or face ID

Jack Dorsey: No, no, no. Not the data. It's just the operating system
verifies that, you know, this-

Joe Rogan: That there's individual user.

Jack Dorsey: It's an individual, and it's unlocking.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: Like, you know, when you use the Our Cash App uses this,
right. So, Square's Cash App, when you want to make a transfer to
someone, when you want to send someone money, or when you want to buy
bitcoin, we turn on face ID, and you verify that you are you, and you
are the owner of the phone, and then it goes. We don't get images of
your face. We don't see who you are.

Joe Rogan: That's what you want me to think. I know, yeah.

Jack Dorsey: That's all locked down by the operating system, and that's
the way it should be.

Joe Rogan: Right. Right, sure. Has there ever been any consideration to
not allowing people to post anonymously?

Jack Dorsey: Well-

Joe Rogan: Like what you said earlier about journalists and
whistleblowers, that is political.

Jack Dorsey: So, look at platforms that have a real names policy. Look
at Facebook.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: Are the problems any different?

Joe Rogan: I don't know because I don't go there, but for what I
understand, there's a lot of still, a lot of arguing there.

Jack Dorsey: It's the same-

Joe Rogan: A lot of political arguing. A lot of old people.

Jack Dorsey: They're the same vectors, the same patterns.

Joe Rogan: I think, older. It's like older, in general.

Jack Dorsey: It seems. I, also, am not really hanging out there, but it
seems a little bit older.

Joe Rogan: It's a lot of grannies looking at pictures of their kids,
grandkids, and stuff.

Jack Dorsey: That's what it's made for. It's connecting-

Joe Rogan: Arguing about ignorance.

Jack Dorsey: It's connecting with the people that you know. And that,
to me, is the biggest difference with Twitter. It's connecting with the
people you don't know-

Joe Rogan: Well-

Jack Dorsey: that you find interesting, and like it's around topics
and stuff that you find that you want to learn more about.

Joe Rogan: When you saw Zuckerberg testifying, and realizing like how
this platform is being used, and what are the dangers of this, and then
you see these senators that really don't know what the fuck the
technology is or-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: It really highlights how we're entering this-

Jack Dorsey: There's a gap.

Joe Rogan: Really, yeah. Well, not just a gap. A gap and the critical
understanding of how these things work, and what they are in terms of
like how these really important politicians who are the ones who are
making these decisions as to whether or not someone has violated laws,
or whether or not something should be curbed or regulated.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: And they don't really even understand what they're talking
about.

Jack Dorsey: No. I mean, there's-

Joe Rogan: So few people do.

Jack Dorsey: Because they're not using it directly. They're not using
in the way that people are using it every single day and-

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: they don't have the same experience that people have
every single day. And, you know, in terms of regulatory, and our
regulators, and our governments, you know, I think the conversation is
often about how regulators will come in, and start writing rules, and
setting expectations for how companies or services might behave. But
there's a role for the company to educate, and there's a role for the
company to educate on like what technology makes possible, whether it'd
be positive and also some of the negatives that become possible as
well.

Jack Dorsey: So, I think, we have a role to help educate and to help
make sure that we're you know, really, we're pushing towards what I
think the job of a regulator is, which is, number one, protect the
individual; number two, level the playing field, and make sure that
those two things are not compromised by special interests trying to
protect their own domain, or profits, or dominance within a particular
market.

Joe Rogan: What do you mean by level the playing field?

Jack Dorsey: Level the playing field, so that an individual has the
same opportunity that someone else might have our company might have.

Joe Rogan: So, okay. So, like anybody-

Jack Dorsey: So, anyone-

Joe Rogan: can have a Twitter account.

Jack Dorsey: Anyone can have a Twitter account. And, you know, they
have, at least, you know, an equal opportunity to contri bute to it. And
whatever they do with it will change the outcome. Some people might
become very popular because they're saying stuff people want to hear.
Some people won't see any following whatsoever because they're not
adding anything original, or interesting, or different in terms of
perspective.

Joe Rogan: Where do you see this going? When you look at these, kind
of, emerging technologies, not necessarily emerging anymore,
established now, but still, you know, a new thing in relative terms of
human history, where do you see this going? And does it get more
intrusive? Does it get deeper into our lives? Like what And when you
look at new technologies like augmented reality and things along those
lines. do you see new possibilities and new things that make things
even more complicated?

Jack Dorsey: I mean, yeah. I mean, we just have to assume that we
naturally use more and more technologies, more and more things become
open, more and more things increase the velocity. There's more
communication, not less. Like this is not going away. And it's just-

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: It's just a question of what we do with it. So, where I
want it to go, and where I want Twitter specifically to go is, you
know, I think, it's existential right now that we have global
conversations about some things that will become crisis. Climate change
being one of them. There's no one nation state that's going to solve
that problem alone. Economic disparity being another, the rise of AI,
and job displacement, and just like us offloading decisions to these
algorithms.

Jack Dorsey: Those are things that that no one nation, no one community
is going to solve alone. It takes the entire world to do so. So, I want
to make sure that we're doing our best to get people seeing these
global conversations and, ideally, participating in them because it
helps. It helps us solve the problems faster. I just believe that more
open society allows us to solve problems much faster.

Joe Rogan: So, you, in many ways, see Twitter as having some sort of a
social responsibility in this discussion.

Jack Dorsey: Totally, totally, totally. Yeah. And I think a big part of
is like, right now, like how are we ensuring that there is more healthy
contri bution to that global conversation. And, you know, I just think
it's so critical that we start talking about the things that are facing
all of us, not just one nation. I do think that that's where our
current model really puts the world at a disadvantage because it
incentivizes more of the echo chambers, which lead to things like
nationalism, instead of taking the broader picture, and looking at
what's happening around the world to all people, to all of humanity.

Joe Rogan: What do you do though to balance the conversation, or what
responsibility do you think you have to balance a conversation in terms
of the way conservatives view it versus the way liberals and
progressives view it.

Jack Dorsey: Balance it. I mean, show-

Joe Rogan: I mean, is there a responsibility? Do you have a
responsibility, or is it just leave it up to the people and let them
figure it out, the same way they figured out hashtags and everything
else?

Jack Dorsey: I think we have a responsibility to make it easier to do
that.

Joe Rogan: Easier. How so?

Jack Dorsey: Right now, it's just too hard. Most people will not You
know, have a sticker mindset.

Joe Rogan: Venture outside of their bubble.

Jack Dorsey: They will not venture out. They will not break their
bubble.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: But if you because it's Right now, on the surface,
it's just so hard to do that. I can only follow accounts, and I have to
look into and just imagine like, you know, trying to get an
understanding of your own politics. People can't just look at your bio.
They have to look through all your tweets, they have to listen to a
bunch of your podcasts and whatnot. And that's a bunch of work. If we
shift it more towards topics and interest, at least, we have the
potential to see a bunch more perspectives. We see-

Joe Rogan: How do you do that though?

Jack Dorsey: The simplest thing is like follow a hashtag, follow a
topic. Like why can't you just follow Warriors Twitter or, you know,
NBA Twitter? Why do you have to go and find all the coaches, and the
players, and the team.

Joe Rogan: So-

Jack Dorsey: We can do that. We can help make that a whole lot easier
for folks.

Joe Rogan: So, there's something like Brexit or something. So, if you
go to #Brexit, you're going to get the whole conversation. You're going
to get the pros, the cons, the left, the right, the whole deal, the
centrists. You're going to get everybody versus following the people
that you already follow that agree with what you think.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. The probability is higher that you'll get more.
You'll get more variety of perspective. And not even Don't even
follow Brexit. Follow Vote Leave if you want to leave. But within that
topic, there might be some dissenting opinions. And you get to choose
whether those inform you, whether that emboldens your position or not.
And, again, I'm not saying that we should force that upon it, but it's
not easy to even do that today, right. The only tool we give you is
finding and following the accounts. And that-

Joe Rogan: But people search hashtags. They do search hashtags, right?

Jack Dorsey: They don't based on the timeline.

Joe Rogan: They don't?

Jack Dorsey: I mean, it is a small percentage of people. The people
that really know Twitter know how to do that. But most people, they
follow an account, and they stay in their timeline. And their world is
their timeline.

Joe Rogan: Hashtags can be corrupted too. I mean, people-

Jack Dorsey: Totally, they can be gamed.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: They can be gamed.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, I-

Jack Dorsey: And taken over.

Joe Rogan: I took over #vegancat. Go to #vegancat.

Jack Dorsey: What is that?

Joe Rogan: It's a rap. That's mine now. In my last Netflix special
about a woman who said a bunch of horrible things to me because I've
put a picture up on Instagram of some deer meat. I wrote, "This is a
meat from a deer that like to kick babies. It was about to join ISIS."
And I wrote #vegan, which was the mistake, right, to write #vegan. But
the #vegan people went fucking crazy and came after me because I
entered into their timeline with meat.

Jack Dorsey: There it is.

Joe Rogan: Have you got a #vegancat? It's all either pictures of See.
Like it says, "Joe Rogan," right, "Thank you. I haven't laughed that
hard in a while #vegancat." It's people that are feeding their fucking
cat vegan food, and they're all dying. And in the special, I say,
"Every cat looks like it's living in a house with a gas leak." Like
they're all-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: like laying like, "Where the fuck is the real food?" But
this is real. Like this-

Jack Dorsey: It generates conversation, different perspective.

Joe Rogan: But the thing is if someone does something like that, like
you can like pick a person, you know, whatever that person is,
whatever they're doing, if they have a hashtag that they utilize all
the time for their movement or whatever, someone could mock them, and
then use that. And if it's a public figure or someone who's got a
prominent voice, then, all of a sudden, that hashtag becomes People
just take it over and start mocking them-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: with that hashtag.

Jack Dorsey: But it has to be done en masse.

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: I mean, it has to be coordinated. And, sometimes, people
like figure out how to game the system, and coordinate it, and amplify
that message in an unfair way. And that's what our systems are trying
to recognize.

Joe Rogan: How sick did that cat look?

Male: Amazing.

Joe Rogan: That poor fucking cat. That was a real one. That was a real
#vegancat.

Jack Dorsey: Wow.

Joe Rogan: These poor bastards. So, when you look back at emerging
social media, like we go all the way back to MySpace, right. MySpace,
you got Tom. Tom was sitting there, and you're in your top eight, and,
you know, people would like post music that they liked, and it was
never political. It was very often, very surfaced. And for comics, it
was a great way to promote shows, and it was an interesting way to see
things. But it was like the seed that became Twitter or Facebook or any
of these.

Jack Dorsey: That's one of them. I think, we At least, for us, like,
we got more of our roots from AOL instant messenger and ICQ.

Joe Rogan: Hmm, ICQ.

Jack Dorsey: Because, it was You know, you remember the status
message where you said like, "I'm in a meeting," or "I'm listening to
this music," or "I'm watching a movie right now."

Joe Rogan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jack Dorsey: That was the inspiration.

Joe Rogan: Oh.

Jack Dorsey: And what we took from that was being able to Like, if
you could do that from anywhere, not bound to a desk, but you could do
that from anywhere, and you could do it from your phone, and you could
just be roaming around and say, you know, "I'm at Joe Rogan's studio
right now," that is cool. I don't need my computer. I'm not bound to
this, chained to this desk. I can do it from anywhere.

Jack Dorsey: And then, the other aspect of instant messenger was, of
course, chat. So, one of the things that the status would do is you
might say like, you know, "I'm listening Kendrick Lamar right now," and
I might hit you up on chat and say, like, "What do you think of the new
album?" But, now, it's all public.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: So, it's just everyone can see it. That's the biggest
difference. And that, to me, is what Twitter is, Myspace, it was
profiles. And, you know, people organized around these profiles and
this network that developed between people. And that is Facebook.
Facebook optimized the hell out of that, and they scaled the world. We
were something very different. You know, we started with a simple
status. And then, people wanted to talk about it. And we decided that
it should be on the same surface. It shouldn't be subservient to the
status. It should be part of that flow. And that's what makes Twitter,
you know, so fluid.

Joe Rogan: Now, when you look at this sort of metamorphosis or this
evolution between those initial social media, whether it's AOL, Instant
Messenger, that eventually became like ICQ, what was that one that we
would use, that gamers would use, that it was like a livestream-

Jack Dorsey: Search?

Joe Rogan: message board. No. It was like-

Male: For a while, people were using TeamSpeak, but I don't know-

Joe Rogan: No, no, it wasn't. It wasn't that.

Male: if that's on your plan that's more recent.

Joe Rogan: It wasn't that. It wasn't TeamSpeak. It was Like you would
go there, and share files and stuff, and people would go Like if Ice
play a lot of online video games-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: And we play on teams, and we have teams go play other teams,
and he would use this sort of It was like a It wasn't a message
board because it was all in real time. What the fuck was it called?

Male: OnLive?

Joe Rogan: No.

Male: No? Okay.

Joe Rogan: All right, forget it.

Male: Yeah, sorry.

Joe Rogan: Anyway, guys would go there, and you could send people files
through it.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: And, you know, teams would go and meet, and it would be a
chat, like an online chat-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan: that would be in real time.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, it's I mean, we have a lot of our roots in AOL,
Instant Messenger, but also like IRC, Internet Relay Chat and Usenet,
which were, you know, these old internet '70s technology.

Joe Rogan: IRC is what I was talking about.

Jack Dorsey: IRC?

Joe Rogan: Yeah. That's the one.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, okay, okay.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: So, Internet Relay Chat is-

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: like this giant chatroom that anyone can join. It's a
range around topics. And-

Joe Rogan: That's What's interesting about that is you could see
people typing. You see it occurring in real time. You see it popping up
in real time.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: You know. Just I wonder like, what is the next evolution of
this? Because no one saw anything going from ICQ to Twitter. No one saw
anything going from that to Instagram, and to where we're at right now
where it really does flavor the conversation of our entire culture. I
mean, before, it was just a thing that was happening, that was
happening on people's computers.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Now, it's a thing that's happening on people's computers.
And, now, phones. And, now, your whole life. It's a very different
influence.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: And I wonder because everything does accelerate.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Things constantly move forward and become more and more
integrated into our life experience. And I wonder, what is the next
stage of this?

Jack Dorsey: I mean, like the secular trends, and, you know, you look
at technology, and you look at technologies like blockchain, for
instance, and I think, you know, we're moving to a world where anything
created exists forever; that there's no centralized control over who
sees what; that, you know, these models become completely
decentralized, and all these barriers that exist today aren't as
important anymore.

Joe Rogan: When you think of something like gab, like gab seems to be a
response to the fact that some people are getting banned from other
platforms, and they're just allowing anybody to come on say and
anything they want.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: The downside of that is, of course, the most horrible people
are gonna be able to say anything they want with no repercussions. The
good side is anybody can say whatever they want.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. I haven't studied them too much, but I do know that
they have taken action on accounts as well. They have suspended
accounts. And they have-

Joe Rogan: At what basis?

Jack Dorsey: a Terms of Service as well.

Joe Rogan: What do they suspend accounts for? Do you know?

Jack Dorsey: I don't know. It's probably conduct-related. It's probably
  It might be doxxing, you know.

Joe Rogan: Probably, right?

Jack Dorsey: But it's just a question of, like, you know, the rules.
And if you agree to the rules, then, you know, you sign up for the
service. And if not, there will be other services. But like you look at
the trends, and I think, you know, certainly things become a lot more
public, and certainly things become a lot more open. Certainly, the
barriers and the boundaries that we have in place today become less
meaningful. And I think there's a lot of positives in that. And I also
think there's a lot of danger that we need to be mindful of.

Joe Rogan: Now, you, as a CEO, as a guy who's running this thing, what
has this been, this experience been like for you? Because I've got to
imagine that it wasn't anything that you predicted. No one predicted
Twitter, right?

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: So, to, all the sudden, have this responsibility-

Jack Dorsey: Twitter changed everything. I mean, it-

Joe Rogan: And you're a young guy. How old are you?

Jack Dorsey: 42.

Joe Rogan: That's young to be in control of that much, and to have it
over the time of What has it been? 11 years?

Jack Dorsey: 13 years.

Joe Rogan: 13 years.

Jack Dorsey: We'll be 13 in March, yeah.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. So, you were really fucking young.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Like what has that been like for you?

Jack Dorsey: It's been both beautiful, and scary, and uncomfortable,
and learning. It's just been a ton of learning and evolving. And like
it it shows me every single day where I need to push myself what I
don't know. And I think a big part is like just the realization that
we're not gonna be able to do this alone. And I don't think we have to
either. These are what the technologies that continue to allow us.

Jack Dorsey: We can If we have to have all the answers around
enforcement or policy, we're not going to serve the world. We have
aspirations to serve every single person on the planet, and we have
aspirations to be the first consideration for the global public
conversation. And, you know, if we're the bottleneck for all of this,
we're not going to reach those aspirations. So, it's just thinking
deeply about how we might distri bute more of this work, and
decentralize more of it, and look at, you know, the platform itself,
and like what we need to change to reach that reality.

Jack Dorsey: And I think we've got to look really deep and
foundational. It goes back to, you know, your question on 140. One of
the things that we saw was, you know, we shifted to 280 characters, and
that You know, this 140-characters is so sacred, you know.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: It became this cultural thing. And I was in love with it,
and so many people are in love with it. But one of the things we
noticed as we moved to 280 is that the vast majority of tweets that are
broadcast don't go above 140, even with that limitation raised. But
where they do go above 140 is in replies. When people reply, they tend
to go over 140-character limit, and even bump up into the 280 limit.

Jack Dorsey: And what it allowed What we've seen it allow is just
more nuance in the conversation. It allows people to give more context
and kind of just get their experience on the table a bit more; whereas,
140 did not allow that. So, we have seen that increase, the health of
those conversations and the discussion. So, it's stuff like that that
we need to question and not hold so sacred.

Joe Rogan: Is there any consideration to expanding it further?

Jack Dorsey: Not right now. We were-.

Joe Rogan: How about a million characters? No?

Jack Dorsey: Well, we don't have edit tweets right now. So, we-

Joe Rogan: Do you think that that's good or bad?

Jack Dorsey: Well, if you can't edit 140 characters, you're going to be
really pissed off if you write a million characters in kind of those
things.

Joe Rogan: You know what I would like? I would like edit, the ability
to edit like if you make a typo or something like that, but also the
ability for people to see the original.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Like edit but see the original.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Like say if it is-

Jack Dorsey: We're looking at exactly that.

Joe Rogan: Oh really?

Jack Dorsey: We're looking at exactly that. The reason we don't have it
in the first place is we were born on SMS. We're born on text
messaging. When you send a text, you can't take it back.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: So, when you send a tweet, it goes to the world
instantaneously.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: You can't take it back. So, when we-

Joe Rogan: But does not exist anyway. I mean, no matter what, if you
send someone something even, if you on Instagram, people are gonna
know the original.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, they screenshot it, and they-

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: You know, they do their thing. But like you could build it
such that, you know, maybe we introduce a five-second to 30-second
delay in the sending. And within that window, you can edit.

Joe Rogan: I'm gonna need more time than I do. If I fuck something up,
like someone has to tell me.

Jack Dorsey: But the-

Joe Rogan: "Hey, man, you misspelled that word." Shit, did I? God damn
it.

Jack Dorsey: The issue-

Joe Rogan: But sometimes, autocorrect gets you.

Jack Dorsey: Totally. But the issue with going longer than that, it
takes that real time nature and the conversational flow out of it.

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: So, then, we're delaying these tweets. And like when
you're watching UFC or you're watching like Warriors basketball, a lot
of the great Twitter is like just like in the moment. Just like, you
know, it's the roar of the crowd. It's like, you know, looking across
at someone you're in this virtual stadium with, and just saying like,
"Oh my god, that shot. Can you believe it?" And-

Joe Rogan: But isn't clarity more important because you're not going
to-

Jack Dorsey: It depends on the context.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: It depends on the context.

Joe Rogan: But you're still gonna have the ability to communicate
quickly.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: But you also have the ability to clarify.

Jack Dorsey: That's where we need to really pay attention because if
you're in the context of an NBA game, you want to be fast, and you just
want to be at the moment, and you just You know, you want to be raw.
But if you're in the context of considering what the president just did
or making a particular statement, then you probably need some more
time. And we can be dynamic there.

Joe Rogan: What's interesting to me is how few people use video. Like I
thought when you guys have video on Twitter, I'm like, "Well, a bunch
people are gonna be making videos and putting those up on Twitter." And
it's not. It's not that often.

Jack Dorsey: It depends on who you follow. It's huge for some aspects
of Twitter. It's-

Joe Rogan: Is it?

Jack Dorsey: It's less so in others but-

Joe Rogan: What aspects is huge for?

Jack Dorsey: A lot of sports. I mean, we see a lot of like just the
replays and the recaps and like-

Joe Rogan: Right, for sure, yeah.

Jack Dorsey: You know, aspects of a particular shot that people want to
comment on. I don't like I think it's dangerous for us to focus too
much on the medium, whether it'd be images, or GIFs, or video. It's
more about the conversation around it. Like that's what we want
optimized for.

Joe Rogan: It's definitely very popular for sports, and in a folly,
and, you know, there's a What is a There's a bunch of animal attack
videos that you can-

Male: Nature is Metal.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, Nature is Metal is a good one and Hold my Beer. That's
another good one. I mean, it's all videos. But what I meant was people
making a video, talking about something.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan: This is what I was trying to say. What I think is this and
that, blah, blah, blah. You don't see a lot of that. And I thought
maybe that would be something that people would adopt more.

Jack Dorsey: To a different speed, you know. And I think, like the
consumption of video, I mean, you see this in the technology right now.
Like people are subtitling every single video because people might be
in an environment where they can't turn the audio on, or, like, a
video, like I have to scrub through to see what's interesting.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: With text, I can just see it. And it allows for a lot of
serendipity to find something that I probably wouldn't have seen unless
I watched the whole damn video. So, like the ability to clip something,
the ability to like index in, I think, is really critical. So, it's not
  To me, it's not about the format. It's about the use case and the
context that you're in.

Joe Rogan: Now, going back to the responsibility that you guys have,
and you in particular, like when this became what it is now, and when
it became evident that it became this gigantic way of changing the way
human beings communicate with each other, was there ever any regret, or
was there ever a moment where you're like, "What the fuck have I gotten
myself into?"

Jack Dorsey: I mean, there's I'm always reflective of where I am and
what I'm doing. I think that the biggest has been around Twofold.
One, how the dynamics of the service allow it to be weaponized in order
to silence someone else or to drive them off the surface entirely,
which goes against the entire concept of free speech and free
participation. Like we just can't stand for that. We need to make sure
that everyone feels that they have an opportunity at a voice. And when
you have these coordinated attacks, it's just it's not fair.

Jack Dorsey: Second is around, you know, this concept of an echo
chamber and the filter bubble. I just I don't feel personally good
about that. I don't feel that we thought that through enough in the
early days. I think we should have moved towards biasing the service
towards topics and interests much, much sooner than we're now
considering doing.

Joe Rogan: Now, when you have these considerations, when you take these
actions, do you consult with psychologists, or sociologists, or
historians, or people to try to put in perspective for you what the
ramifications of each individual move would be?

Jack Dorsey: I try to read as much as possible. I try to talk to as
many people as possible. Just get a completely different perspective
and-

Joe Rogan: Is there any internal disagreement about actions that you
take?

Jack Dorsey: Oh yeah. There's always debate. There's always debate.
But, I think, my role is to ask ask questions and make sure, like, what
is our goal here? What are we trying to do? You know-

Joe Rogan: And that evolves?

Jack Dorsey: That evolves, that evolves. Like, is this, over the long
term, going to be a net positive for all humans, all humanity? Like,
how do we balance the considerations of, you know, how we serve
everyone? And, like, how do we get down to something? How do we get
down to a fundamental answer and a central answer? And that, to me, is
where the real truth is, is when you can get to something foundational.
But, you know, I like having conversations with as many people from as
many different fields as possible and getting the perspective on it.
So, I ask questions all the time.

Joe Rogan: It's interesting the way you're phrasing this too that you
are looking at this as a method to save, or to help people, to serve
people. You're looking at this as a way that you can benefit society,
that society can benefit from your platform, can benefit from this
ability to communicate. You're not just looking at it as a tech company
that has to remain profitable. And that is-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: One of the more interesting things about tech companies, to
me I mean, there's been a lot of criticism, maybe justified in some
ways, that tech companies all lean left. But what is interesting to me
is that name another corporation that willingly, of its own choice,
takes that into consideration that they want to serve the world and
serve culture in a beneficial way regardless of profit.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: I mean, because you're not really selling anything, right.
You guys have a platform. Obviously, it's financially viable, but
you're not selling things, right?

Jack Dorsey: Well, I mean, we do our models based off people's
attention.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: And they're paying us with their attention. And that's
extremely valuable, and something that we need to really, really honor.
But I agree with you. I mean, look at Tesla. You know, I just listened
to the recent earnings call. And one of the things that Elon said was,
"Look, there are two reasons for Tesla. Number one is to advance, you
know, different sources of energy and more renewable sources of energy
because it's a fundamental and existential crisis that's facing all
humanity. And number two is to advance autonomy because it'll save
lives and give people time back."

Jack Dorsey: And then, you start talking about how to make that
possible. And that's where, you know, our business comes in. How do we
make that possible? And we have a great business. We need to improve a
bunch of it, but it serves what we think our larger purpose is, which
is serving the public conversation. We want to see more global public
conversations. We want our technology to be used to make the world feel
a lot smaller, to help see what common problems we have before us, and,
ideally, you know, how we can get people together to solve them faster
and solve them better.

Joe Rogan: You also seem to be embracing this responsibility that
you're helping to evolve culture. And this is part of providing this
method to communication of communication rather. It's helping to
evolve culture. And this is something that is really only applicable to
tech companies in some strange way. And it's weird that so many of them
share this.

Joe Rogan: Like I was personally a little weirded out when Google took
out Don't Be Evil. Like that was a big part of their operating model.

Jack Dorsey: Did they take that out?

Joe Rogan: Yes. Yes. Right?

Male: Mmhmm.

Joe Rogan: Make sure. I don't want to get sued. Pretty sure they
removed that from what would What do you call that? Their operational
directive? What is-

Male: It's in the code of conduct.

Jack Dorsey: Code of conduct. And it's not there anymore, right? They
removed it.

Male: So, yeah. The other article says they removed the clause.

Joe Rogan: And this-

Jack Dorsey: It's kind of a weird thing to tell people not to be evil.

Joe Rogan: It's weird that they take it out. Once you already said it,
it's way weirder to say, "Yeah, fuck it. We were wrong. Just go ahead."

Jack Dorsey: There's another way of saying that though.

Male: They changed it to, "Do the right thing."

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Oh. Well, what does that mean? What the fuck does do the
right thing mean? Do the right thing, so you can make more money? You
know, like, "Hey, we want to make money. We'll do the right thing. It's
makes more money.".

Jack Dorsey: I mean, that's why Like, that's why this openness is so
critical. I mean, that's why-

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: Like the public To me, the public conversation is so
important. We can talk about stuff like that.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: And there will be companies forming today that look at
objectives and mandates like that and base their whole culture around
it. And is that the right idea?

Joe Rogan: Well, it's-

Jack Dorsey: I don't know. But if we're not talking about it, we won't
be able to answer that question.

Joe Rogan: What's also interesting because Google is so all
encompassing, right. You have Gmail, you have Android. I mean, that
They are the number one operating system for mobile phones in the world
on top of being a search engine. There's so much involved in that
company. And, again, like almost all tech companies, they heavily lean
left, and they Because they had that Don't Be Evil as a part of their
code of conduct, it seemed like something that was a good idea to have.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: And it, sort of, defined what I was talking about that tech
companies are uniquely progressive.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what makes that.
I think, no matter what, like, we The internet allows for a very
healthy skepticism of nearly everything.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: I'm from Missouri. It's a Show-Me State.

Joe Rogan: Are you really from Missouri?

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. We're all skeptics. My
mom was a Democrat. My dad was a Republican. My dad listened to Rush
Limbaugh and Hannity all the time. I found myself somewhere in the
middle. But one of the things I appreciated, we had a ton of fights,
and arguments, and yelling matches around the kitchen table. But, like,
I appreciate the fact that we could have them. And I felt safe to do
so. And I didn't feel like I mean, obviously, they're my parents, but
they weren't judging me because of what I said, and-

Joe Rogan: They didn't force you to be a Republican or a Democrat.

Jack Dorsey: Didn't force me to think a particular way. Like, I think
they were good, at least, showing different perspectives even in this
union that they have. And I don't know. It developed a skepticism in me
that I think is healthy, and I have a lot of skepticism of companies
like ours and leaders like me. I think that's right. I think that's
right, and people should. And we I mean, I was formed through a lot
of the ideals. I think I just fell in love with what it made possible.

Jack Dorsey: And I never ever want to run afoul of those ideals. And,
you know, the removal of barriers, and boundaries, and the connection
that we have because of it. And, you know, I think often and reflect
often about my role and the centralization of my role in our company,
and I want to figure out and help figure out, like, how we can continue
to add massive value and be an amazing business, which is us and will
always be us.

Jack Dorsey: But at the same time, be a participatory force in this
greater good that the internet has really started. And it's not led by
any one individual or any one company. And that's the beauty of it. And
I want to make sure that we find our place in that, and we can also
contri bute massively to it. And I think we can. It's just going to take
a lot of work, a lot of introspection, and a lot of experimentation. A
lot of making mistakes and failures too.

Joe Rogan: Well, and it's very encouraging that you have that attitude
because, you know, a lot of people, I think, in a similar situation
would try to control the narrative. They would try to reinforce their
own particular perspective on things and try to get other people to
adopt it or try to push it. And I think it's very important-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: to just have this open discussion. And I think it's very
important to review your own thoughts and ideas.

Jack Dorsey: Totally.

Joe Rogan: And one of the best ways to do so is through the-

Jack Dorsey: Put it out there.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, put it out there.

Jack Dorsey: Put it out there and have other people review it.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Peer review is a great process. And the-

Joe Rogan: That was the way this podcast has evolved more than probably
anything.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. That's the thing. I mean, you did this because you
want to learn from people. And the platform that you've created,
millions get to learn from it as well.

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: And that's just so amazing. Like I learn from your podcast
all the time. And that's what technology makes possible. But with that
power also comes ramifications. And if we're not talking about the
ramifications and, like, at least, being open about what we know and
what we don't know. And, I think, we're I think we state and post a
lot more of what we know rather than what we don't know.

Joe Rogan: Why don't you guys-

Jack Dorsey: And that's just so interesting.

Joe Rogan: Why don't you guys steal Don't Be Evil? Put that in your own
shit. Fuck you, Google.

Jack Dorsey: I don't know if that's going to help anything. Then, what
is that telling our employees to do?

Joe Rogan: Don't be evil. It's real simple. Don't be a dick.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. I mean, how do we get deeper in just, like, seeing
more conversation around what is "evil."

Joe Rogan: Have you guys considered expanding your influence in other
venues? Like, you know, Google started off as a search engine. Now,
it's fucking everything. Have you guys considered doing something
similar?

Jack Dorsey: I think, we probably did too much of that early on. And
that's what led to a bunch of issues from a corporate standpoint. We're
just trying to do too much too many times.

Joe Rogan: Like what?

Jack Dorsey: I don't know. We're trying to be everything to everyone.
And like, you know, we had, you know, a video thing, and we had We're
looking at gaming stuff and messaging. And it lost focus of what we are
good at. What we're good at is conversation, and what we're good at is
public conversation. So, we now have As a company where, we have just
such an amazing focus on what that means and how that evolves.

Jack Dorsey: And there's just There's some really cool things that we
can do there. Like we have this app called Periscope. And one of the
things that we're discovering is, like, a lot of people are using it to
podcast. A lot of people are using it to share their thoughts, and
these people come in, and, you know, they chat, and have a
conversation. And one of the things we did recently is we allowed the
audio to play in the background. It's super simple, but what we found
was that people didn't necessarily want to watch the video of people
talking. They just want to hear what they're saying. And that just
opened the door for more types of use cases.

Jack Dorsey: And there's some really exciting things coming out with
Periscope that, I think, add a new dimension to what conversation looks
like, and how it is experienced, and how it evolves. And those are the
things I get really excited about. It's like, how can we make
conversation better? And, you know, how do we make it feel more live?
How do we make it feel more electric? And how do we bring new
technology into it that just opens a door for an entirely new way of
talking?

Jack Dorsey: And that's the thing that I think has been most
educational to me about Twitter is, you know, as we talked about, we
started with this idea of sharing what was happening around you. And
then, people told us what they wanted to wanted it to be, and it became
this conversational medium. It became this interest network. And it
became a thing that was entirely new. And, you know, we observed it,
and we learned more and more of what it wanted to be in. And as we get
deeper and deeper that we're going to be surprised by some of the
technologies that we thought would be used in this way, but it turns
out that the massive use case, and the resonant use case, and the
fundamental use case is going to be created right before our eyes by
the people using it.

Joe Rogan: Now, did you guys acquire Periscope or was-

Jack Dorsey: We acquired Periscope, yeah.

Joe Rogan: And what was the thought process when you were acquiring it?

Jack Dorsey: We like the live nature of it. We like the broadcast
aspect.

Joe Rogan: Why keep it as Periscope? Why not have it be like Twitter
Live?

Jack Dorsey: There's a specific community on Periscope. And I think
it's interesting from an experimentation standpoint. We can play with
ideas there. It's a smart playground.

Joe Rogan: Scott Evans, I think, uses it better than anybody. He gets
on it-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, he's really good at it.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: And he's one that I think has figured out just the knack
behind it. You know, he starts every one of them with this simultaneous
sip of coffee.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: So, he gets his listeners and his viewers engaged right
away. And then, he just goes on. And then, every now and then, he'll,
you know, look at the comments, and riff off them. So-

Joe Rogan: He lets people build up too. Like, he'll announce that he's
going on, and then wait a little while, say hello to some people.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Then, once a bunch of people are in the room, then he starts
talking.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah. And I just I find that so interesting because that
is the future of conversation. It's looking at the patterns. It's
looking at what people are trying to do with the thing. And then, you
build technology around it. And that becomes the next big thing. And we
just have to We have to hone our power of observation, hone our power
of, like, connecting the dots, and looking at all the patterns, and
what people are It's what's the question behind the question? What's
the statement behind the statement that they're making? And if we can
get good at understanding some of those fundamental central things,
then we've reached We've, at least, created the probability that most
people in the world will find it useful and find it valuable.

Joe Rogan: Joey Diaz as the other person that uses Periscope better
than anybody live, but he just gets on.

Jack Dorsey: I haven't seen his.

Joe Rogan: He just gets baked. It gives you a morning What does he
call it? Morning Band Head?

Male: The Morning Joint.

Joe Rogan: The Morning Joint, yeah. He'll smoke a joint or smoke a bowl
in the morning, and then just sort of let everybody know-

Jack Dorsey: Doing something-.

Joe Rogan: what's mine is mine.

Jack Dorsey: Doing something in sync with one with more people is
interesting. Like we've had some folks who are interested in doing
meditations through Periscope.

Joe Rogan: Oh, that's a great idea.

Jack Dorsey: You can I mean, if you look at the surface level, you
can't imagine anything more boring than like watching someone meditate.
But if you're actually meditating with them, there's something powerful
about it. And, like, what can we do to improve that experience?

Joe Rogan: What about people using it for group workouts? Is anyone
doing that?

Jack Dorsey: I'm sure it's happened, and I haven't seen it personally,
but I'm sure it's happening.

Joe Rogan: How much more people do you have on Twitter than Periscope?

Jack Dorsey: A lot.

Joe Rogan: A lot more, huh?

Jack Dorsey: A lot. It's one of those things that I, personally, just
have a lot of conviction around, and I have a lot of belief in the
format, and I You know, every now and then, we don't have instant
hits. It just requires a lot of patience. And we need to really learn
what it wants to be. And, sometimes, that takes time. And, you know, I
think, oftentimes, I've certainly done this, you know, we shut down
things a little bit too early.

Jack Dorsey: We did this at Square. Like we had this amazing
technology, an app I love called Square Wallet. And it allowed you to
You know, you link your credit card, and you have all these merchants
around you here in LA, and you could walk up to a coffee merchant. And
as you walked up, your name would pop up on the register, so you could
say like, "I want a cappuccino. Put it on Jack." And it just
automatically charge your card. And it would only happen if you were
within, like, two feet. We're using Bluetooth, and geolocation, and
whatnot.

Jack Dorsey: But, you know, we had it for about three years, and it
just didn't take off, and we shut it down. And I kind of regret doing
that, but it also paved the way for another thing that I didn't want to
give up on, and that was the Cash App. Like for four years, it was just
a slug. Like a lot of people in the company wanted to shut down the
thing. They saw it as something that wasn't successful. And, you know,
recently the team reached number one in the App Store in the United
States.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Like, we are all We are against all these incumbents
like Venmo, and PayPal, and it finally clicked. And it's just because
we have the patience and the conviction around our belief.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, it's a great app too. And the ethics behind it are
really fantastic too. We're really thankful for the Cash App,
especially my friend, Justin Rand, and his fight for the forgotten
charity that every time you use the code word, joerogan, all one word,
it all goes-

Jack Dorsey: We match it.

Joe Rogan: $5 goes to that. And they've built two wells for the pygmies
in the Congo.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: And they've raised thousands of dollars in building more
wells right now. It's really, really cool.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: We're really, really happy about that.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, yeah. I love it. I think it's-

Joe Rogan: It's a great way to save money too. I mean, when you can
save 10% at Whole Foods-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: I mean, that's real.

Jack Dorsey: Well, the other thing is like the population that we
serve, typically, are underserved by banks or unbanked entirely.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Today, we are their bank account.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: But more importantly, they don't have access to things
like rewards. You don't get rewards on a typical debit card or credit
card.

Joe Rogan: Right.

Jack Dorsey: So, like, just, you know, going to your favorite place and
getting an instant 10% off, or whatever it is, is out of reach for most
people because the financial institutions don't enable that, and they
won't even enable them to get in the door in the first place.

Joe Rogan: Well, if people were listening to this on YouTube, you don't
know what the fuck we're talking about, the Cash App has a thing called
the Cash Card, which is a debit card that you get with it, and there's
a thing called Boost. And with Boosts, all you do is pick a boost in
the app, and then use your cash card as a debit card, and you get these
automatic discounts. And they're real discounts.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: And in this-.

Jack Dorsey: Instant, instant.

Joe Rogan: For folks with bad credit, there's no credit check. You can
direct deposit your paycheck right into the app. And the fact that you
guys do things like support Fight for the Forgotten, and you're
supporting UFC Fighter Ray Bourque's son who's got some serious medical
bills-

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: it's really, really cool.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, yeah. I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud of
the team. It's a very small team, but they're doing some big things.

Joe Rogan: I hear a lot of good things about it too. I've run into
people on the street that tell me they use it, and they're very happy
about it.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: So, it's nice to see, again, an emerging technology that's
profitable, but, yet, also, has a really good set of ethics.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan: Do you have Don't be Evil in Cash App's code of honor?

Jack Dorsey: No, no, no.

Joe Rogan: Maybe you should not take it. It's free now.

Jack Dorsey: One of our equivalent operating principles within Cash and
Square is like under like, how do we understand someone's struggle?
Like, how do we understand? Like, how do we have empathy for like what
they're struggling with? And, like, when it comes to finance, they're
struggling with a lot.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Typically, they're struggling with the ton.

Joe Rogan: What was the thought process with I mean, one of the
things that's kind of cool about the Cash App is that you can buy and
sell bitcoin with it.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: Are you guys going to consider other forms or cryptocurrency
as well?

Jack Dorsey: Not right now. So, back to the internet, I believe the
internet will have a native currency.

Joe Rogan: Really?

Jack Dorsey: It will have a native currency. And I don't know if it's
Bitcoin. And I think it will because just given all the tests it's been
through, and the principles behind it, how it is created. And, you
know, it was something that was born on the internet, that was
developed on the internet, that it was tested on the internet. It is of
the internet.

Jack Dorsey: And the reason, you know, we enabled the purchasing of
bitcoin within the Cash App is, one, we want to learn about the
technology, and we want to put ourselves out there, and take some risk.
We're the first publicly-traded company to actually offer it as a
service. We're the first publicly-traded company to talk to the FCC
about bitcoin, and what that means. And it made us uncomfortable. We
had to, you know, like really understand what was going on. And that
was critical and important.

Jack Dorsey: And then, the second thing is that, you know, we would
love to see something become a global currency. It enables more access.
It allows us to serve more people. It allows us to move much faster
around the world. And we thought we were going to start with how you
can use it transactionally, but we noticed that people were treating it
more like an asset, like a virtual gold. And we wanted to just to make
that easy. Like, just the simplest way to buy and sell bitcoin. But we
also knew that it had to come with a lot of education. It had to come
with constraint because, you know, two years ago, people did some
really unhealthy things about, you know, purchasing bitcoin. They maxed
out their credit cards and put all their life savings into the bitcoin.

Jack Dorsey: So, we developed some very simple restrictions and
constraints, like you can't buy Bitcoin on the Cash App with a credit
card. You have to It has to be the money you actually have in it. And
we look for day trading, which we discouraged and shut down. Like
that's not what we are trying to build. That's not what we are trying
to optimize for. We made a children's book explaining what bitcoin is,
and where it came from, and how people use it, and where it might be
going. So, we really tried to take on the role of education and have
some like very simple healthy constraints that allowed people to
consider what their actions are in the space.

Joe Rogan: Now, when you have something like the Cash App, which it's
very much a disruptive technology in terms of, like, decentralization
of banks and currency. And, you know, to have it where everything is
going right You're direct depositing a paycheck right in the app if
you so choose. Then, you could also buy Bitcoin, which is another
disruptive technology. I mean, that This is another step towards this
sort of new way of doing things now.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: And is there pushback from any companies or is there-

Jack Dorsey: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, like, you just look at, like, some
of the major banks and their consideration around Bitcoin. They all
love blockchain because of the efficiencies it can create for their
business and potentially new business lines. But, you know, I think,
there is a-.

Joe Rogan: Explain blockchain for people who don't know what we're
talking about.

Jack Dorsey: Blockchain is a distri buted ledger. And what that means is
that it's, basically, a distri buted database where, you know, the
source of truth can be verified at any point around the network. And
you can see, you know, this annotation around how content or how around
money, like, traveled.

Joe Rogan: So, you don't have to go to an institution to get them?

Jack Dorsey: So, the records, yeah, there's no centralized check.
There's no a centralized control over it. And I think that is
threatening. It's certainly threatening to certain services behind
banks and financial institutions. It's threatening to some governments
as well. So, I just look at this and, like, how do we embrace this
technology, not react to it, you know, more from a threat standpoint,
but, like, what does it enable us to do, and where does our value
shift?

Jack Dorsey: And that's what we should be talking about right now is
like how our value shifts. And there's always really strong answers to
that question. But if you're not willing to ask the question in the
first place, you will become irrelevant because technology will just
continue to march on and make you irrelevant. And it's the people that
like are, you know, growing up with this technology, or born with the
technology, only knowing that technology, or are asking the tough
questions of themselves that are going to be super disruptive to their
business, and they're thinking about right now, and they're taking
actions.

Jack Dorsey: And, you know, we're doing that at Square, and we're doing
that at Twitter. And like that, to me, represents longevity. That
represents our ability to thrive. And we got to push ourselves, we got
to make ourselves uncomfortable, and we've got to disrupt what we held
sacred, and what we think is success because, otherwise, it's not going
to be bigger than what we have today.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think that
cryptocurrency, to me, represents one of the more interesting
discussions on the internet lately.

Jack Dorsey: Totally.

Joe Rogan: What is money?

Jack Dorsey: Yeah.

Joe Rogan: And why are we agreeing that it's these pieces of paper that
the Federal Reserve prints out?

Jack Dorsey: Totally. It's a fascinating time in technology because,
like, that, to me, was one of the last, big, centralized nationalized
instruments is currency, is money. And when you think about the
internet as a country, as a market, as a nation, it's going to have its
own currency. But what's interesting about the internet as a nation,
it's the whole world. It is the whole world. So, the world gets one
currency. It gets one thing they communicate in. And that, to me, is
just so freeing and so exciting.

Joe Rogan: Yeah, I'm very excited by it. And I'm also very excited at
the fact that it's only been around for such a short period of time
but-

Jack Dorsey: 10 years.

Joe Rogan: And it's become a part of the global conversation.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, it's like a good brand.

Joe Rogan: I also think that it's going to open up the door to
potential universal languages. And I think this is-

Jack Dorsey: Totally.

Joe Rogan: This is-

Jack Dorsey: Totally.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: Yeah, that excites me a lot about Twitter is like, how do
we Like it If we want to get the world into a conversation, not a
single conversation but, at least, being able to see that global
conversation, like we've got to work on technologies that would like
instantly translate.

Joe Rogan: Yes.

Jack Dorsey: We got to work on technologies that I can speak as I'm
speaking right now. And in real time, people are hearing it in their
context, in their language, in their dialect. That is amazing. That is
so exciting.

Joe Rogan: Yeah.

Jack Dorsey: And like just how that evolves, and how it impacts, not
just communication like this but music. And just like, you know, how
hip hop, and rap, and, you know, just It just It's amazing to think
about where that can go and where that can take us.

Joe Rogan: Yeah. And I think you and I are extremely fortunate to be
alive right now during this time because, I think, it's one of the
strangest and most unique times-

Jack Dorsey: Totally

Joe Rogan: in human history.

Jack Dorsey: Totally.

Joe Rogan: I don't think there's ever been a time where things have
changed so radically, so quickly.

Jack Dorsey: Totally. Yeah. And I feel, you know, we're just We're
able through technologies like Twitter to, at least, see and
acknowledge some of the issues that we're still facing that we're
probably in the dark before. And I think that's so critical to making
any sort of improvements for making any sort of evolution and for
making it better for everyone on the planet.

Jack Dorsey: And, you know, as uncomfortable as, you know, sometimes
Twitter makes people feel, I think it is necessary to see those things
and have conversations about them, so that we can understand how we
might move forward and how we might really get at the biggest problems
facing us all. And, you know, there's some huge ones, some huge ones
right now that if we don't have if we don't talk about it, like, it
will drive us to extinction, and like it will threaten our ability to
be in a planet, to live on this planet.

Joe Rogan: I agree. Thank you.

Jack Dorsey: Thanks again.

Joe Rogan: Thanks for everything, man. Thanks for being here.

Jack Dorsey: Thank you.

Joe Rogan: Thanks for doing what you're doing. Thanks for having the
attitude that you have. I really, really appreciate.

Jack Dorsey: Thank you. Joe.

Joe Rogan: My pleasure. Bye everybody.


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JRE 1236 - Jack Dorsey

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   59 Jack Dorsey

*** WISDOM TROVE ***

*** NEWFULLDB 2.4M ***

1:Twitter is the world. ~ Jack Dorsey,
2:Success is never accidental. ~ Jack Dorsey,
3:Life happens at intersections. ~ Jack Dorsey,
4:My goal is to simplify complexity. ~ Jack Dorsey,
5:As CEO, my main job is editor-in-chief. ~ Jack Dorsey,
6:Build what you want to see in the world. ~ Jack Dorsey,
7:Don't avoid eye contact and don't be late ~ Jack Dorsey,
8:Making something simple is very difficult. ~ Jack Dorsey,
9:It's really complex to make something simple. ~ Jack Dorsey,
10:Pick a movement, pick a revolution and join it. ~ Jack Dorsey,
11:Amazing what people make up based on what they choose to see. ~ Jack Dorsey,
12:Short term satisfaction will never lead to something timeless. ~ Jack Dorsey,
13:Make every detail perfect and limit the number of details to perfect. ~ Jack Dorsey,
14:What I love about New York is just the electricity I feel right away. ~ Jack Dorsey,
15:An idea that can change the course of the company can come from anywhere. ~ Jack Dorsey,
16:You don't have to start from scratch to have a massive impact on the world. ~ Jack Dorsey,
17:'Luck' is recognizing when the situation encourages build out and execution. ~ Jack Dorsey,
18:Starting anything is a roller coaster with the highest highs and lowest lows. ~ Jack Dorsey,
19:It's empowering to be asked to look at what's possible, not told how to do it. ~ Jack Dorsey,
20:Revolution looks at the intersection ahead and pushes people to do the right thing. ~ Jack Dorsey,
21:Great companies don't just have one founding moment. They have many founding moments. ~ Jack Dorsey,
22:I think Twitter is the future of communications and Square will be the payment network. ~ Jack Dorsey,
23:From a product standpoint, we want every touch point to feel magical. It inspires trust. ~ Jack Dorsey,
24:Meet customers where they are; question how to make the tools customers use more valuable. ~ Jack Dorsey,
25:My mom cares that I tweeted a picture of my breakfast. She's knows I'm eating and I'm safe. ~ Jack Dorsey,
26:Jack Dorsey, founder of Twitter and Square, tweeted to his 2 million followers: “Success is never accidental. ~ Anonymous,
27:We get to design what we want to see in the world rather than doing what other people think should be done. ~ Jack Dorsey,
28:My goal is to simplify complexity. I just want to build stuff that really simplifies our base human interaction. ~ Jack Dorsey,
29:Constraints inspire us in how we approach the press, how we approach business relationships, how we do everything. ~ Jack Dorsey,
30:Everyone has an idea, but it's really about executing the idea and attracting other people to help you with the idea. ~ Jack Dorsey,
31:I fell in love with flora of all types, especially ferns. Loved the sparse structure and repetition of shape - almost fractal. ~ Jack Dorsey,
32:I was fascinated with jeans, because you can impress your life upon the jeans you wear. The way you sit imprints on the jeans. ~ Jack Dorsey,
33:There's an entire universe in every single tweet, and it all really depends on the content as far as how it's going to spread. ~ Jack Dorsey,
34:En enero de 2013, Jack Dorsey, fundador de Twitter y Square, tuiteó a dos millones de seguidores: «El éxito nunca es accidental». ~ Peter Thiel,
35:The greatest lesson that I learned in all of this is that you have to start. Start now, start here, and start small. Keep it Simple. ~ Jack Dorsey,
36:Twitter has been my life's work in many senses. It started with a fascination with cities and how they work, and what's going on in them right now. ~ Jack Dorsey,
37:The strongest thing you can cultivate as an entrepreneur is to not rely on luck but cultivating an ability to recognize fortunate situations when they are occurring. ~ Jack Dorsey,
38:The idea of Twitter started with me working in dispatch since I was 15 years old, where taxi cabs or firetrucks would broadcast where they were and what they were doing. ~ Jack Dorsey,
39:Anything you're interested in the world whether it be Charlie rose or JetBlue or a public figure or your local coffee shop, they're on Twitter and broadcasting what is interesting to them. ~ Jack Dorsey,
40:I spend 90% of my time with people who don't report to me, which also allows for serendipity, since I'm walking around the office all the time. You don't have to schedule serendipity. It just happens. ~ Jack Dorsey,
41:I think Twitter is best when it sparks conversations elsewhere. To use YouTube and Facebook and all the tools we have available to us today to respond and also promote and answer and engage is awesome. ~ Jack Dorsey,
42:I am someone who tweets about what I have for breakfast, what I have for lunch, what I have for dinner, and for 99.99999 percent of the world, it's useless. It's meaningless. But for my mother, she loves it. ~ Jack Dorsey,
43:Technology to me does two things: it increases the velocity of communication and increases the number of people who can participate. That's it. That's really all technology for our entire history has ever done. ~ Jack Dorsey,
44:Twitter was around communication and visualizing what was happening in the world in real-time. Square was allowing everyone to accept the form of payment people have in their pocket today, which is a credit card. ~ Jack Dorsey,
45:IM is interesting because you look at your buddy list and, at a glance, see what your friends are listening to, what they're working on, what they're doing. The problem was that you were bound to the computer keyboard. ~ Jack Dorsey,
46:TweetDeck is a very interesting client, because it presents a view that no other client in the world presents, which is this multicolumn, massive amounts of information in one pane. And people really, really enjoy that. ~ Jack Dorsey,
47:A number of people in the United States, almost everyone, is using plastic cards to pay for things, but it's extremely difficult to accept these cards. So let's make it's easy and take more and more of the friction out as we can. ~ Jack Dorsey,
48:The Web provides a very easy way to immediately grasp what's going on. It really offers the transparency, so you can see, especially with the search engine, how people are using Twitter at one glance. The phone doesn't allow for that. ~ Jack Dorsey,
49:The interesting products out on the Internet today are not building new technologies. They're combining technologies. Instagram, for instance: Photos plus geolocation plus filters. Foursquare: restaurant reviews plus check-ins plus geo. ~ Jack Dorsey,
50:Your job as an executive is to edit, not write. It's OK to write once in a while but if you do it often there's a fundamental problem with the team. Every time you do something ask if you're writing or editing and get in the mode of editing. ~ Jack Dorsey,
51:I think that great programming is not all that dissimilar to great art. Once you start thinking in concepts of programming it makes you a better person...as does learning a foreign language, as does learning math, as does learning how to read. ~ Jack Dorsey,
52:It's a matter of invitations versus context. Twitter is really good at providing context, like, I''m having coffee at Third Rail Coffee.' Foursquare is about invitations to places. In this respect Foursquare has started to replace Yelp for me. ~ Jack Dorsey,
53:I said a long time ago that Foursquare can make cities better. You have these augmented realities like Foursquare and Twitter and Facebook that provide these virtual nodes and instant feedback from anywhere, adding annotation around a physical places. ~ Jack Dorsey,
54:I'm less interested in how people are following each other and more interested in how they are following topics and tweets themselves. People are following more key words and concepts and more ideas and acting on those rather than individuals or organizations. ~ Jack Dorsey,
55:You don't have to start from scratch to do something interesting. You don't have to start from scratch to have a massive impact on the world. You have to have a good idea. You have to convince other people of those good ideas. And you have to push as quickly as possible. ~ Jack Dorsey,
56:Those words are from Lynda Barry's novel 'Cruddy.' I've carried them with me for some time. There's a lot in my life I wasn't expecting. One is the realization that I stood at this pulpit and delivered a reading for my own graduation...15 years ago. Unexpectedly, I'm old. ~ Jack Dorsey,
57:What's interesting about Twitter and the influencers that someone follows - like, say, Shaquille O'Neal - is that they see someone who is using the exact same tools that they have access to, and I think that inspires this hope to be able to really engage with someone like him. ~ Jack Dorsey,
58:I love cities, and I love city governments in particular. But in politics it would have taken me 8 years from implementing a policy before I would get to see the feedback. With programming I could model the same policies and see the impact immediately. Technology is a far more efficient way to test. ~ Jack Dorsey,
59:I loved couriers. You had this transfer of physical information happening throughout the city and the world. Someone picking up the package, putting it in a bag, going somewhere, taking it out of the bag, giving it to someone else. I thought that was so cool. I wanted to map it, to see that flow on a big screen. ~ Jack Dorsey,
60:The first complaint we hear from everyone is: 'Why would I want to join this stupid useless thing and know what my brother's eating for lunch?' But that really misses the point because Twitter is fundamentally recipient-controlled - you choose to listen and you choose to leave. But you also choose what to put down and what to share. ~ Jack Dorsey,
61:All my days are themed. Monday is managementTuesday is product, engineering, and design. Wednesday is marketing, growth, and communications. Thursday is partnership and developers. Friday is company and cultureOn the days beginning with T, I start at Twitter in the morning, then go to Square in the afternoon. Sundays are for strategySaturday is a day off. ~ Jack Dorsey,
62:creating a company for acquisition or IPO is different from building a profitable enterprise; it’s about building a sellable enterprise. Startups are not trying to earn revenue (which is a liability); they are setting themselves up to win more capital. They are not part of the real economy or even the real world but part of the process through which working assets are converted into new stockpiles of dead ones. That’s all they have really accomplished with whatever digital fad they’ve foisted onto the market or sold to yesterday’s tech winners. They thought they were engineering a new technology, when they were actually engineering a reallocation of capital. That’s why digital entrepreneurs who do win often end up becoming the next generation of venture capitalists. Everyone from Marc Andreessen (Netscape) to Sean Parker (Napster) to Peter Thiel (PayPal) to Jack Dorsey (Twitter) now runs venture funds of his own. Facebook and Google, once startups themselves, now acquire more businesses than they incubate internally. With each new generation, firms and investors leverage the startup economy more deliberately, or even cynically. After all, a win is a win. ~ Douglas Rushkoff,

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