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Instances, Classes, See Also, Object in Names
Definitions, . Quotes . - . Chapters .


object:2.21 - 1940
book class:Evening Talks With Sri Aurobindo
author class:A B Purani
subject class:Integral Yoga
class:chapter


1940
1940
4 JANUARY 1940

In a previous talk, I had reported that Indologists claimed Mohenjodaro was Dravidian because a tribe was discovered in Baluchistan whose language was akin to Dravidian. The theory that the two races had intermingled, my friend G had said, was supported by the fact that as one moves further south and east one sees a greater proportion of dark-skinned people.

Disciple: I had a talk again with G about the Rigveda and the Aryan-Dravidian question. He gave two arguments: In Indian families, the fact of different children having different colours is a positive argument according to biology that the race of the parents is a mixed one. Secondly, in the Rigveda itself there is a mention of dark-skinned people and anāsah. I replied that anāsah figures only in one Rik out of more than ten thousand, and it may not mean noseless or flat-nosed.

Sri Aurobindo: Anāsah is not flat-nosed. It is noseless.

Disciple: I saw the Rik and it refers only to the Dasyus and not to non-Aryans.

Sri Aurobindo: Orientalists also wanted to prove the existence of Linga worship in the Rigveda by citing one Rik in which the word Shishnadeva occurs.

Disciple: K. M. Munshi had written that Bhakti is nothing but sublimation of the sex impulse, and tried to trace its origin to that Rik. I had contradicted his view and shown that Shishnadeva only means sensualist.

Sri Aurobindo: Quite so. And what do they have to say about the Dravidian tribe in Baluchistan? Is it black and flat-nosed? How the devil do they find out all these things from the Rigveda — nomadic existence, gambling, crossing of the rivers, etc? I find that the fight between the Tritsus and Sudansahs in the eighth mandala is not a battle at all; it is something symbolic.

Disciple: That is one of the strongest points in the Indologist armoury. If one can get the clue to the symbol of the ten Kings that would be the end of their theory.

Disciple: Did you hear J's interpretation of your poem "Trance"? He says that the 'star' there stands for the individual soul and the 'Moon' for the Universal. The 'storm' is doubt. When doubt is cleared from the mental sky, the individual soul stands face to face with the Universal.

Sri Aurobindo: If there is any philosophy in it I am not aware of it. What I have described is a condition of inner experience. He seems to read his own mind into the poem, but it is not poetry, it is metaphysics. It's like what they make of the Rigvedas anāsah, the flat-nose of the European scholars.

( In the evening, after reading the poem again, he said:)

I have explained everything in the poem itself: I speak of the star of creation, the moon of ecstasy and the storm-breath of the soul-change, that is to say, the upheaval before the change. The trance brings in a change of the outer consciousness and nature. There is no philosophy anywhere.
5 JANUARY 1940

Disciple: I am trying to get intuition but I fail.

Sri Aurobindo: Perhaps you were disappointed with your last brinjal intuition, and so it is not coming.

Disciple: But Nolini Sen began to have guidance as soon as he started Yoga. He has a mind which seems open to the intuitive faculty.

Sri Aurobindo: He had been doing yoga for some time.

Disciple: Guidance in what way?

Sri Aurobindo: Guidance in solving practical difficulties. Aman of successful action gets a sort of insight which is half-intuition; while a man of intellect is generally handicapped, his intellect thinks of various possibilities, saying this may happen, that may happen.

Disciple: Has a man of successful action no intellect?

Sri Aurobindo: He has, but for action he feels what will hapen and seizes upon it. He acts upon the suggestion and in most cases it turns out to be right. Not that he does not go wrong at all. The nature of his mind is such that he is open to this intuitive faculty of action. The English people are so successful because they have a knack of getting vital intuition which leads to success. Even if they commit mistakes and jumble things together, in the end their intuition comes to their help and pulls them out of the difficulty. The French on the other hand are more logical. They think and reason.

Disciple: The English are thinking of helping Finland more actively because they are afraid of a German-Russian naval combination in the Baltic.

Sri Aurobindo: But how are they going to help? They require ammunition and military equipment for themselves. I don't know how they could have enough to spare.

( After some time the talk reverted to N's difficulty.)

Sri Aurobindo (to N) : Are you trying to get intuition in a special way?

Disciple: Yes, in my medical work.

Sri Aurobindo: Instead of limiting yourself to a special field, why not try to have the faculty in a general way?

Disciple: In what way?

Sri Aurobindo: For everything. For example, what S is going to do next. Or, if you are a reader of novels, try to guess what will follow; of course, it is easy for an expert reader to do this. After all, many people get intuition without knowing it.
8 JANUARY 1940

Disciple: Have you read C. V. Raman's address at the Science Congress?

Sri Aurobindo: I believe so.

Disciple: He says they have discovered two new elements — I don't know how!

Sri Aurobindo: Not discovered, created. By changing the position of the particles in the atom. What are they going to do with them?

Disciple: The cost of producing anything will be prohibitive, though the method of breaking up atoms by cyclotrons is cheap. Raman has supported Einstein's theory about unity of matter and energy.

Sri Aurobindo: Has anybody cast a doubt on it?

Disciple: No.

Sri Aurobindo: But what is energy?

Disciple: Modern scientists have stopped asking that question. They only concern themselves with the how and not the why or the what. But their own discoveries will make the question more pointed.

Sri Aurobindo: Quite so. Because the question is why a different combination of atomic particles should make a different element.

Disciple: Once energy was said to be lines of force and there was a theory of vortices in vogue.

Sri Aurobindo: That means force in movement. You know energy when it is in activity, and then the question arises what is force?

Disciple: They don't answer this question.

Sri Aurobindo: Unless you accept a Being behind who applies the force and also becomes matter there is no other explanation. When they are given this reply they say it is all nonsense. They explain it by saying it is Nature. They don't know what is Nature. It is merely giving a name. Nature stands for a magic formula, a Maya, and they explain everything by that formula.

Disciple: The scientists swore by the rigorous law of causation but now they find it difficult to apply it in their investigations.

Sri Aurobindo: What is causation? It only means that certain conditions follow certain other conditions.

Disciple: How can the presence of somebody behind a force be proved?

Sri Aurobindo: There is no other explanation.

Disciple: He didn't say a 'body' buta Being.

Sri Aurobindo: Ihave said in The Life Divine that you cannot explain the appearance of consciousness out of Matter unless you accept a Being behind. That Being may be either unmanifest and involved in Matter or it may manifest itself.

Disciple: It is Brahman playing on Brahman or with it.

Sri Aurobindo: They will accept Brahman playing within Brahman, but not anything outside it.

Disciple: They want to catch Brahman with their scientific instruments.

Disciple: They have despaired even of that! They have come to the materialistic conception of the Universe. They speak of tensorial laws!
10 JANUARY 1940

Disciple: In a publication of the Gita Press the writer is trying to prove the efficacy of repeating the Divine Name and of Kirtan. He cites Tulsidas in support of his contention.

Sri** Aurobindo:** If it was so easy it would have been delightful.

Disciple: There is a story of Ajamil in the Puranas to support the efficacy of repeating the Name.

Sri Aurobindo: It depends upon the psychic being. If it is touched and wakens and throws its influence on the other parts of the nature, then Name and Kirtan have a value.

Disciple: Has mechanical repetition no effect?

Sri** Aurobindo:** If it touches the psychic being, it has.

Disciple: In Kirtan people easily go into a kind of trance.

Sri Aurobindo: There are other effects too, sometimes undesirable. Very often it arouses the vital instead of the psychic being.

Disciple: X has retired. Do you think he is doing your Yoga?

Sri Aurobindo: He has his own way of doing Yoga; his seclusion, I believe, is temporary.

Disciple: People cite your example in favour of retirement.

Sri Aurobindo: It is wrong to say that I do not accept life because I do not actively participate in it. But it is true that I am not for acceptance of life as it is.

Disciple: We accept life, i.e. nature, but we accept it for transformation. Some sadhaks are not taking part in ordinary life, but can it be said that they are retired, or can we say they are not doing your Yoga?

Disciple: Z likes ordering people about; he seems full of anger, jealousy, egoism, etc.

Sri Aurobindo: That changes last because the outer being is the last to change; it does not mean that there has been no progress or experience within.

Disciple: In Ramana Maharshi's Ashram one feels at once the peace, etc.

Sri Aurobindo: Is there nobody in the Ashram here who is quiet and peaceful?

Disciple: In the outside world also you find people who are not jealous and are peaceful. The difficulty is how to find them without attaining inner perfection oneself.

Sri Aurobindo: M felt the peace here and immediately went in for the Yoga. For us it is nothing compared to what is yet to be done.

In the evening, after some talk about the war:

Disciple: In The New Statesman and Nation, J. M. condemns Huxley's After Many a Summer as a witty parody thrown into philosophical form.

Sri Aurobindo: This criticism is not worse than Anthony West's who doesn't admit even the wit. They say Forster also is philosophical.

Disciple: Like Tagore these people don't seem to like intellectual novels. But Tagore's own novels also are intellectual!

Sri Aurobindo: Do people want stupid rather than intellectual novels to be written?

Disciple: Tagore, in his novels, analyses various psychological movements which common people can't understand. Sharat Chandra can be said to be a non-intellectual writer.

Disciple: Yes, except in his Shesher Prashna.

Disciple: So far as I have read it, it doesn't seem to be very intellectual.

Sri Aurobindo: He is not much of a thinker.

Disciple: He seems to have pleaded the cause of Western civilisation and made the arguments against it very weak. For instance, his heroine doesn't find anything grand in the conception behind the Taj Mahal.

Sri Aurobindo: What is there Western about this attitude? The one thing Europeans like in India is the Taj.

Disciple: I don't mean the architectural beauty. What she ridicules is the idea of immortal love.

Sri Aurobindo: Even from that point of view, the Europeans like it. Love has a great place in their life.

Disciple: But love in the sense of being faithful to one person alone even if that person is dead — it is that the heroine cannot bear.

Disciple: Sharat Chandra seems to advocate re-marriage or no marriage, free love, as far as I understand.

Sri Aurobindo: But why is free love European? In Europe no one advocates such an idea except a few intellectuals. If you want to abolish the marriage system, then the Europeans will raise a hue and cry.
23 FEBRUARY 1940 (Evening)

Disciple: Why should God have created the world, was he unhappy?

Sri Aurobindo: Do you create when you are unhappy? Does Nirod write poetry because he is miserable?

Disciple: No, to get more joy.

Sri Aurobindo: Then he is full of joy and wants more.

Disciple: God is always full of joy.

Disciple (to previous disciple) : What is your idea of creation?

Disciple: It is Swayambhu, self-existent, according to Jainism. So God cannot have created this world, he lacks the motive.

Disciple: If God has not created this world you cannot get his help in liberation.

Disciple: In Jainism each one gets liberation by his own efforts. Even the Tirthankars don't help.

Sri Aurobindo: Of what use are they then?

Disciple: They serve as examples. It is the shāsan devatas, the worshippers of the Tirthankars, who help.

Sri Aurobindo: Then you can worship them! But if the Devas worship Tirthankars they should not help either because their ideal is the attainment of Tirthankars. Why should they help? It is also a contradiction of the law of Karma. If Karma brings its own reward inevitably then the help of God is unnecessary. If God helps and intervenes effectively and changes the result of action, then the law of Karma is not absolute.

Disciple: Jainism believes in Purushartha.

Sri Aurobindo: If you believe in Purushartha you can't expect the Grace of God. How can you pray to Him to help you?

Disciple: I believe in Grace but in Jainism they don't. They believe each one is alone and they say: "I have come alone and will go alone." This feeling will give Vairagya.

Sri Aurobindo: If one is alone, how do the Tirthankars and Acharyas, and such an infinite number of Siddhas crowded in Siddhasila come in? Like all religions it is fantastically illogical. Buddha also said the same thing, but the religion says: "Buddham Sharanam Gachchhami." So also in Jainism.

Disciple: In Jainism self-mortification persists. In Buddhism it is not there. Buddha gave it up after a trial. Buddha and Mahavir were contemporaries but they don't seem to have met. Mahavir was born in Vaisali.

Disciple: In Jainism each soul is bound by ignorance and there are three ties of that ignorance and three ways of liberation. This has been symbolised in the Swastika.

Sri Aurobindo: Hitler took the Swastika from there then? (Laughter)

Disciple: Because he wants to dominate over all the world.

Disciple: Jainism believes in the multiplicity of Prakritis and in one Purusha.

Disciple: It is like the Sankhya system.

Sri Aurobindo: They took it from Sankhya. Their whole stand is based on the Sankhya.

M was repeating the Navakar like the Gayatri.

Disciple: It sounds like Pali.

Disciple: Yes, it is written in Magadhi. It is a Prakrit dialect.

Sri Aurobindo: What kind of Prakrit? There are many Prakrits.

Disciple: The one that was then current in Bihar.

Disciple: Mahavir was a Bihari.
FEBRUARY 1940

Bijoy Goswami passed the last years of his life in Puri and he came to the conclusion that so long as poverty was there in India, spiritual and religious teaching had no chance. One of his disciples writes in the last issue of the Kalyān that in his last years he believed in dāna yagña, charity. So much so that he ran into debt and when his health was failing the disciple had to arrange for the money to pay up a loan, because Bijoy Goswami said that he would not leave Puri before paying the debt. He asked his disciples not to be calculating and practical but to do work as a divine work, without thinking of tomorrow.

Sri Aurobindo: It is one thing not to think of tomorrow and quite another to try to remove poverty by feeding the poor. People don't understand that philanthropy cannot remove poverty, it can at the most relieve it. If you want to remove poverty you must find the causes of poverty and remove them. It is not a correct idea that when people have plenty they will think of God, since the greater number of spiritual people have been those who have renounced everything and lived on very little. As soon as people have money they forget those who have no money.

Disciple: His idea was that people cannot believe that God is all-merciful, kind and loving, unless at least their physical needs are satisfied.

Sri Aurobindo: If the idea is that God is all compassionate and must look after everybody's food and clothing, then of course his principle would be true.

Disciple: At last all his disciples had to collect large sums far away in Bengal and send him the money to pay the debt. But henever reached Calcutta; Ibelieve he died in Puri.

Sri Aurobindo: But Iheard that he was poisoned by some jealous Sadhus. He made sthambhan — control, on poison for some time, but ultimately he could not prevail.
1 MARCH 1940

Disciple: Does Barin's article show any change in his attitude?

Sri Aurobindo: It is difficult to say about him. He says what is uppermost in his mind, what suits him at the moment. There may be a change in his attitude, but its difficult to say if there is an inner progress. Or it may be a mental change due to his having failed in everything after going from here while the Ashram has grown ever since. That may have impressed him.

Disciple: He admits that he had fallen from the path and in his attitude towards the Mother.

Disciple: Somebody said he used to speak highly of her.

Disciple: No, he was critical.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. He says things according to his own moods and says it with force. He wrote a book on the Mother and asked Andrews for an introduction. Andrews refused, saying, "I know the Mother." And Moore refused to believe his criticisms of the Ashram.

Disciple: A.B. says his ideas began to come in January.

Sri Aurobindo: Of course. Does he not know from where they are coming?

Disciple: He wants to know that when Mother has said this is "a year of silence and expectation" what should he do?

Sri Aurobindo: Observe silence and be expectant!

Disciple: What he wants to know is whether the literary work he is doing with the approval of the Mother is not going to interrupt the silence, especially if he goes in for controversy.

Sri Aurobindo: I suppose one can do the work in silence. But he should not engage in controversy. He has too combative a mind. If he goes in for controversy naturally the silence will be interrupted.

Disciple: If he does this sort of work and somebody contradicts him, naturally he will have to counter-contradict.

Sri Aurobindo: Why? Many people criticise me. I don't answer. It is not necessary that he should answer.

Disciple: Nolini and I decided not to try to convert anyone about Vedic interpretation but to go on repeating over and over again our own point.

Sri** Aurobindo:** That is Hitler's method.

Disciple: That is why nobody contradicts Nolini!

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. When people find that the opponent does not answer they lose all interest.

Disciple: A.B. says it is true he has lost touch with the reality of the external world. Now if he reads Manchester Guardian and New Statesman will it disturb his silence?

Sri Aurobindo: It depends on his mind. If he can read all these things in order to know what is going on, it is all right, but he should not run away with any idea or programme. He was asked not to read papers because his mind was a slave to politics and attracted by the ideas. The fundamental peace and silence is all right, but he should bring the attitude of the Purusha in his reading also.

Disciple: I did not know that he also has such difficulties!

Sri Aurobindo: You thought he has reached the Supreme Siddhi?

Disciple: Not so much, but a cosmic consciousness.

Sri Aurobindo: You mean an all-India consciousness?

You can tell him that he must not attack or contradict people. When he reads anything he must not allow his mind to run away with any ideas, but take up the attitude of the witness and see from where these things come. And if he does not allow the mind to identify with any of them he will know the right source of action and knowledge. You were speaking of Cosmic Consciousness. All these ideas are there in the general Prana and have equal validity from the point of view of Cosmic Consciousness. They may be as much true as his own; for example, when Basanta Chatterji contradicts him there is some truth in what he says. He has to see what distortion the mind has brought into democracy — personal ambitions, boycotts, etc.

Disciple: Dikshit also used to have many brilliant ideas, such as a common kitchen, cleaning up Baroda city, etc.

Sri Aurobindo: Is he talking of a common kitchen? Why not have everything common? Ideas are always brilliant. Co-operation is always possible, because each finds his self-interest in the interest of others.

Disciple: Was A.B. a political leader?

Sri Aurobindo: He was just beginning his career, but that sort of leadership is nothing. If you have the gift of the gab and power of ideas and putting form into them, you can always succeed. All politics is a show. In the British Parliament it is the Civil Service who are behind, and whose names are never known, who really do the work. The Ministers are only their mouthpieces except men like Churchill and Hore-Belisha who can do something. The civil servants have been at their job for their lifetime, and they know everything about it.

The Mother's brother, for instance, organised Congoland, but the Minister got all the credit for it. He was one of the best colonial administrators. Even when he was an officer in Equatorial Africa, sometimes as Governor and sometimes as Governor-General, the whole job was done by him. He hardly used his bed and used to lie down in an easy-chair. Now he is nearly seventy, but as soon as the war was declared he went to the office and asked for his work back. Now he is working eighteen hours a day.

A.B. is living in his mind. No 'isms' or mental programmes will do if you want to base things on the Spirit. They are all out of count. It is the repetition of the old mental way. Are the villagers going to understand my philosophy? If he goes to work, he will find himself out of touch with realities and will have the same fall as Barin, who went out to revolutionise the world.

Disciple: And he ended by revolutionising himself.

Disciple: These things can be only done by the Government.

Disciple: Yes, but both constructive work and this kind of political work can go together as Gandhi is doing.

Sri Aurobindo: With very little success.
25 APRIL 1940

R was saying to C in the train that his difficulty was about accepting the Mother. Because, he said, they used to meditate together and therefore he found it difficult to accept her.

Disciple: But how could he have meditated with her? Nobody ever meditated with the Mother until just a few years before the Ashram came into existence in 1926.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, even then in the beginning there were very few people.

Disciple: At first, Mother meditated only with Sri Aurobindo.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but that was individual. She was coming to me and her position was special even from the very beginning. There was no comparison between others and Mother.

There were people in the Ashram who thought that Mother had done no Sadhana before she came to India.
20 MAY 1940

Disciple: Why does Hitler say that he wants to finish his campaign before August 15?

Sri Aurobindo: That's a clear indication, if an indication was necessary, that he is the enemy of our work. And from the values concerned in the conflict it should be quite clear that what is behind him is the Asuric power.

Disciple: Does the Asura fear that a descent might take place on August 15, it being your birthday, which will make his work more difficult?

Sri Aurobindo: This Being does not believe in a divine descent; it is a sort of challenge: "I will finish my first decisive victory before August 15." That shows the nature of the conflict.

Disciple: It does not seem to be only one Being, but a troop.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but the one behind Hitler is leading. It has often come here to see what kind of work is being done. Have you read Richard's The Lord of the Nations?

Disciple: No. I read only his "To the nation".

Sri Aurobindo: The book was never published, but he wrote it at a time when he was in communion with this Being. He said there that the present civilisation is to be destroyed, but really it is the destruction of the whole human civilisation that is aimed at. Already in Germany Hitler has done it: there is no civilisation left there. What reigns there is barbarism supported by science.

Disciple: Most of these people do not believe in any religion. They seem to want to destroy Christianity and all religion.

Sri Aurobindo: That is what I meant when I said these Germans have preserved the barbarian in them. What they have got is scientific knowledge, mechanical skill, but all the cultural activities that used to be there are suppressed. And Hitler suppresses them wherever he goes; he has done it in Poland and in Czechoslovakia.

Disciple: Man is only used by the Germans as a part of their machinery and organisation.

Sri Aurobindo: Exactly so.

Disciple: And Hitler is talking of reviving the worship of the old Norse gods.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they are crude conceptions of the primitive instincts of mankind. Even though Odin is considered a god of knowledge it is more or less primitive instincts that he symbolises.

Disciple: Do these Beings know about the existence of the Divine and deny it? or are they ignorant about it?

Sri Aurobindo: It depends on their nature. They know about the existence of the Gods, for instance, but they don't consider them higher than themselves.

Disciple: Yes, and they don't merely ignore the Gods but claim to create a world order of their own.

Sri Aurobindo: When these Beings themselves act, no human power can stand against them. It is all right as long as there is a question of influencing men, that is to say, as long as it is the divine and the Asuric influences working. But when it is a question of a possession or an incarnation, as in the case of Hitler, then it is a very different matter.

Disciple: That makes the conflict between the Devas and the Asuras as represented in the Puranas very realistic even for our times. Because generally the Devas used to get beaten by the Asuras and run for protection to Mahakali or Rudra or Vishnu.

Sri Aurobindo: It is only the intervention of the Divine that can become effective, for in this Hitler and Stalin affair it is the descent of the whole vital world on this earth. That is what has puzzled most people, especially the intellectuals who were thinking in terms of idealism. They never expected such a thing; and now when it has come they don't understand how it has come and what is to be done. They deny the existence of the worlds beyond the physical and so they are bound to be perplexed.
22 MAY 1940

Disciple: If the Asuric forces have incarnated in Hitler and others, are there none on the side of the Allies who incarnate the Divine forces

Sri Aurobindo: No, unfortunately there is none among them who can receive the Divine Force. They are all ordinary men. Mother also has not found anyone who can receive. Perhaps Marshal Petain might be able to receive but he is too old.

Disciple: Can Weygand receive?

Sri Aurobindo: I don't know anything about him. In such times if you have men who do not conform to scientific principles and rules, it is an advantage. These people assume things; with Hitler one can't assume anything. We require men with ideas and daring. Hore-Belisha would have been a very good choice on the English side. If they had put Lord Halifax for India, it would have been very easy to arrive at an understanding with the Congress.

Disciple: Jean Herbert, when he was here, was very hopeful that there will be no war. The queer thing is that he believed that the dictators will get whatever they ask for if they ask for it strongly.

Sri Aurobindo: They would get France also if they ask strongly? Nivedita [a French sadhika] was saying that those French who have joined the war this time have no enthusiasm or idealism. If that is their mentality, they will be defeated. It is a stupid and tamasically sattwic quality.

Disciple: Have you seen Sir Arthur Hendersons book The Failure of My Mission in Germany?

Sri** Aurobindo:** I have seen a review of it in New Statesman.

Disciple: Jwalanti told me Henderson speaks of Hitler as a man possessed.

Sri Aurobindo: Does he say that?

Disciple: She described the condition of her friend's son, a young diplomat who had been to Berlin. His people could not recognise him when he returned. He told them that in Germany he had felt as if he were put inside a metallic bomb and every minute somebody was putting more pressure on it so that he couldn't breathe freely.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, practically the whole atmosphere in Germany seems to be dominated by these forces. The young men are actually taught to be devilish. In Poland, when the Poles complained about cruelty by the German soldiers people said, "Don't complain, this is nothing. Wait till the Nazis come to power here; then you will know what cruelty is."
23 MAY 1940

State Socialism was introduced today in England.

Disciple: It must be due to the pressure of the Labour members.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. It is a revolutionary step; but for the war it would not have passed, because all along English history has been a fight for individual liberty and this is a negation of all that.

Disciple: It must also be taken to prevent war profiteering.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes.

After some time the talk turned to the prophecy of a setback to Hitler in May.

Disciple: Still eight days to go. If they recapture Narvik, then...

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, then we can begin to think that the Allies will win. But they want to take Narvik without the loss of a single man!

Disciple: But they have again changed their position against the Germans, it is said. What does it mean?

Sri Aurobindo: Obviously it means retreat. They want to fight non-violently, like Gandhi — without shedding a drop of blood.

Disciple: Gandhi's idea of Ahimsa is that he should get killed.

Disciple: Yes, he has almost a passion for being killed.

Disciple: When Vidyarthi was murdered by a Muslim, Gandhi said he was very sorry he himself was not killed like that. He looks to the day when one man will be cutting his head, another beating him with a lathi, and a third attacking him with something else.

Disciple: That is not all. When he is beaten like that he must have not only no ill-feeling but love for them.

Sri Aurobindo: And not a sense of obligation also? And say thank you very much for fulfilling my life's ideal, gentlemen?
15 JUNE 1940

Over the last two days Sri Aurobindo had said that in one sense one can say history is repeating itself because the Graeco-Roman civilisation was destroyed by the Germanic hordes and today it is again the Germans who are trying to destroy the centre of European culture, for Paris has been the centre of modern civilisation for three centuries. The unfortunate thing is that the whole world is bound up with modern civilisation — even China and Japan. The Asura working behind Hitler has been giving him remarkably accurate guidance; he knows what is possible. That is why Hitler doesn't listen to reason but only waits for the voice. Till now it has guided him correctly. The only mistake he seems to have made is to think that when he attacked Poland, England and France would not declare war. Otherwise he has a direct guidance which Napoleon could not get.

About the surrender of Paris Sri Aurobindo wondered how the French had allowed the Germans to enter it without fighting. Even if the old civilisation is to be destroyed, it was better to have defended it heroically.

Disciple: Haradhan says that France will ultimately triumph.

Sri Aurobindo: It is not unlikely.

Disciple: Do Asuras have the power of vision?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they have. Vision is not only on the spiritual level. It can be also on the vital and the subtle-physical planes, and can be very accurate.

Disciple: Can Asuras know about their own end?

Sri Aurobindo: No.

Disciple: It is like the astrologers who know of others' death but not their own.

Sri Aurobindo: No, some can predict it accurately. There are instances in which the exact hour and minute is known. A case in point is that of Louis XI and his astrologer. When invited by his enemy Charles of Burgundy, Louis consulted his astrologer who said it was safe to go; yet Louis was imprisoned. He summoned the astrologer after telling his guards that if, when sending the astrologer away, he shouted, "There is a Heaven above us!" they must kill the astrologer, but not if he said, "Go in peace." The astrologer came to know of the plot, and when Louis asked if he knew the hour of his own death, he said it was 24 hours before Louis's. And so Louis took great care to see that he was not killed. It is said that years later, Louis died exactly 24 hours after the astrologer. This story is narrated by Scott in his novel Quentin Durward.

Disciple: Adwaitananda met a sadhak at Tiruvannamallai who argued with him that knowledge need not be accompanied by power.

Sri Aurobindo: If knowledge gave power, all intellectuals would have power, and really they have none. (Laughter)

It all depends on whether you lean on the side of the Witness Purusha or Power or both. If a man realises the Sat aspect, the Pure Being, he may have no power, because Pure Being does not act — it is not impotent but it may remain quiescent. On the other hand, there are spiritual people who have little knowledge but much power. And even in the case of those who realise the power aspect, it may not always be used.
17 JUNE 1940

News came that Petain proposed to negotiate an armistice with Hitler. It came as a surprise and everybody thought France was lost. Curiously enough, today was Paul Richard's birthday.

Sri Aurobindo: How could these heroes of the last war propose a truce? How can they expect anything honourable from Hitler? It would be the end of France.

Disciple: France has become decadent. When someone showed French coins to the Mother, she remarked: "What coins are these? They are the coins of a ruined country." It was after the Munich Pact.

Sri Aurobindo: Ididn't know that. But when France did not stand by her treaty with Czechoslovakia, Mother had said that France was condemned.

Disciple: Do you foresee all the possibilities connected with the war?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but we do not accept anything as absolutely certain or inevitable. They can be changed.

Disciple: I quite understand how it must be impossible for France to continue the war. They began without enthusiasm for the war, but even afterwards Government servants are seen actually wishing for such a peace! There is a soldier in the hospital who even says, "What is the use of fighting? for whom?" etc.

Sri Aurobindo: That is the decadent mind, when men think more of their safety and comfortable living and want to live in peace at any price.

Disciple: Is it not the action of the law of Karma that has fallen upon France?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is their Karma, but if they can go through the suffering and pay the price they can wipe off their Karma. But if they give up the struggle it means they are gone.

Disciple: Will the English continue after the French have given up?

Sri Aurobindo: I think they will. At least they have not been known to give up so easily in the past, unless they have changed considerably. In the light of this, one admires the resistance of Poland and Finland. In spite of very bad leadership and inadequate equipment they fought bravely to the end and did not ask for terms. I don't think that they are lost.
18 JUNE 1940

Churchill's proposal was out for an Anglo-French Union.

Disciple: There was panic last evening. Everybody thinks France has given up, but in fact it is due to various causes that French soldiers are not fighting. They think in terms of communism and capitalism, etc.

Sri Aurobindo: They will have no chance under Hitler. There are only two chances: either Hitler dies soon and his work is undone, or these people last it out.

Churchill's proposal is good. The English do not like an idea merely for the sake of the idea. They have a feeling for what is possible, what is necessary. They have a great flexibility in politics and they have shown it by declaring State Socialism, and this Anglo-French Union is another move.

( He also said, in between, that the British Labour Party had secured rights for the workers, but had not been strong in pressing the claim of India upon the present cabinet)

Disciple: The prospect of a joint English and French Parliament is very humorous.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, the French members will fight among themselves and the English will shake their heads and say, "Most unparliamentary!"

Disciple: Can the French yet resist? And if they give upcan the English resist?

Sri Aurobindo: Why not? That is why we Indians cannot win. We always think that if you are defeated you have to give up. It is not like that. The greatness lies in not giving up the struggle and refusing to accept the defeat as final. You can defeat me any number of times but I am not going to give up.

The British have stood out alone against victorious powers in the past.

If the French decide to resist, they have the Navy and the Air Force intact, and their colonial army and colonials too. From there they can resist till they win.

The Belgian and Dutch Governments have not given up. Why should the French? And even if the Anglo-French Union does not become permanent they can have a very powerful federation with Holland, Belgium, Norway, Poland, Czechoslovakia and they can request India to join it voluntarily as an equal partner. That would obviate the conservative fear about making a sweeping change in India. They have always a fear that it is against tradition, too much out of the way. No nation can be great on the principle of maintaining its existence, unless it stands for some great cause or idealism or something else great.
19 JUNE 1940

When P referred to Churchill's speech yesterday explaining that the French really lost the battle in Flanders, because they lost 25 divisions, and said that it comes to about three lakhs at the most, Sri Aurobindo said that French divisions are smaller, of about 15 or 18 thousand each. So P wondered what happened to the other 17 lakhs.

Sri Aurobindo: That is what I don't understand — how they can complain of want of men. Chamberlain and Daladier both seem to be the same. I do not know whether it is stupidity or treachery.

Disciple: Somebody raised a complaint that the British were not sending sufficient men.

Sri Aurobindo: You must remember that Britain is not a country with conscription. They have not got a big standing army. It takes time to prepare and equip soldiers, and yet they sent four lakhs with the best equipment they could give. This is not a small force for England, and then they were obliged to retreat and bring back three and a half lakhs.

Disciple: It seemed that after the fall of Paris the British have sent four lakhs of men.

Sri Aurobindo: No, there seems to be some confusion. They could not have sent so many because before the Reynaud cabinet resigned Churchill said that he had sent three divisions already and would be sending one lakh in all by the end of June. But as usual these over-sensitive French military men in their over-suspiciousness did not believe Churchill's words.

Disciple: The new cabinet is out-and-out a rightist cabinet.

Sri Aurobindo: It does not even represent the whole of France.

Disciple: The retreat has become a rout.

Sri Aurobindo: Because the army has no organisation left and the morale was broken by the fall of Paris and also by the breakdown of the peace talks. Everybody thinks, "What is the use of dying today if tomorrow they are going to conclude peace." There is no heart in the fighting.

Disciple: At that rate they will find after some time that they can't oppose Hitler.

Sri Aurobindo: It is as Mother says: Hitler does not want to give his terms before he destroys the French army. It seems to be the same condition that was there in the time of Napoleon III when France lost the war. It is due to party quarrels and jealousies. Politicians trying to meddle in the government instead of doing their own work. Their dissatisfaction with England is quite meaningless because Churchill clearly said that it would take some months to make up for the loss of materials in Flanders. It is no use pitting an ill-equipped army against the Germans.

Gamelin was a fraud and Weygand has not proved exceptional. If a military genius had arisen he could have saved the situation. It seems Hitler is going to ask France for her colonies that are near British possessions. In that case he may ask for Pondicherry.

Disciple: Does he know anything about Pondicherry?

Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes. The Germans know everything. Their children are taught the most wonderful details about the cities and even villages in England and France. They have got a school where they train future governors for England. So far as organisation is concerned there are only two races who cannot be surpassed: the Germans and the Japanese. In the last war they found maps in Germany of English villages in which even the position of trees and houses were indicated.

There was a reference to Hiranyagarbha which P took to Sri Aurobindo. He had explained, two days back, that Hiranyagarbha has nothing to do with Supermind. Besides Hiranyagarbha is a Being, while Supermind is not.

Disciple: It is a plane of being or a plane of consciousness. A world of its own.

Sri Aurobindo: Exactly so. Hiranyagarbha refers to the universal subjective, while the Virat is the universal objective. In the Rigveda there is only one reference to Hiranyagarbha.

( Then P read out hymn 121, Mandala X.)

Sri Aurobindo: Here Hiranyagarbha is a God. He is a creator.

Disciple: There is a hymn (Rigveda II:12), which is similar in wording and conception but which refers to Indra.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, there are several hymns in which various Gods like Agni, Indra, etc., are spoken of as creators. But it is not the same thing as what I call the "Supermind as a creator". The word in the old philosophy which can convey the idea of the Supermind as a creator is prajñā, the Knower. He creates out of himself. Prajna is spoken of as superconscient because it is above the ordinary mental consciousness and ordinarily one enters it in Samadhi, unless one brings it down into the ordinary consciousness. The Supermind also is superconscient but that is because it has not yet been attained. Hiranyagarbha is equivalent to Taijas, while Prajna is prior to that. I remember that in jail we used to call one fellow who had a strong imagination Hiranyagarbha, that is to say, man of strong dreams.

( Then P showed Sri Aurobindo two references from Sāmaveda: the second hymn of Mandala III, in which Hiranyagarbha is derived from Rudra, and the fourth hymn of Mandala II in which Kapila is said to be Hiranyagarbha.)

Sri Aurobindo: Both of these are not clear in their meaning of Hiranyagarbha. Besides they are quite different in their sense from the Hiranyagarbha of the Rigveda.
22 JUNE 1940

The talk was about the report of a military correspondent that the French thought in terms of fortress and positional warfare. They did not believe in the importance of tanks and aeroplanes even though they knew that tanks had decided their victory last time.

Sri Aurobindo: And so Gamelin had to go! He was so much accustomed to the idea of fortress that he did not know what to do when the Germans came in through Flanders! Gamelin and Daladier are both so evidently weak that one is surprised how they were regarded as strong men. Government after government in France appointed Daladier as Foreign Minister, while he did nothing to prepare for war, and nor did Chamberlain. You have only to look at their photographs at the Munich Conference where you can see a fierce, cunning, and crafty Hitler, while Daladier appears like one who can be broken in no time, and Chamberlain looks like a cunning fool who thinks he is winning his point, while really he is not.

There was a Nazi incident in Uruguay.

Disciple: Will that be an excuse for America to join the war?

Sri Aurobindo: If it is true that Germans have given a threat and the Uruguay Government shoots some of the Nazis and the Germans declare war on Uruguay, then the Monroe Doctrine will come in full force. But I don't suppose it will go to that extent.

( About armistice discussion between France and Germany Sri Aurobindo said that if they ask for capitulation of navy and air force then it will be very hard for England)

Sri Aurobindo: The English have their air force but do they have sufficient tanks? A big invasion of England seems unlikely. If the English can last till the end of the year then Germany may be defeated.

Russia is very foolish in putting pressure on Turkey to keep out of the war. There is bound to be a clash between Russia and Germany about the Balkans and at that time if the English are defeated there will be no chance of blockade.
23 JUNE 1940

On hearing the terms of the French armistice which included putting all the French resources at the disposal of Hitler, Sri Aurobindo said it is an "act of basest treachery". When he heard about the Rumanian Government becoming Nazi he said, "The whole world seems to have been taken in by a wave of selfishness, cowardice and treachery."
25 JUNE 1940

Disciple: We say everything that happens happens according to the Divine Will, i.e. nothing happens without it. So the defeat of France happened according to the Divine Will, i.e. according to Sri Aurobindo's will!

Sri Aurobindo:"Everything" does not mean every individual act or event. You can say Sri Aurobindo's will on another level of consciousness willed it. For instance, you can't say that I willed to break my leg!

People think of God as a kind of super-dictator. The Divine Will lays down general lines — but in the actual Play it consents to limitations that are self-imposed. It has also to pay the price in the play of forces. Otherwise you can argue that Rama willed that Sita may be taken away by Ravana! And that Christ knew that he had to be crucified for the work and yet something in him wished it might be otherwise!

So, it is not all my 'will'; it is the Karma of France and England also that is working.

I am almost getting sympathy and admiration for the British, which I never had before. They are standing up alone against Hitler's power without allies — just as they did in Napoleon's time.

Disciple: You wrote in a letter to Dilip that your will never fails.

Sri Aurobindo: No. Idid not say that. What Isaid was that Ihave not seen my will fail — so far as the major events of the world were concerned — until now.

Disciple: What events?

Sri Aurobindo: For instance, Ireland's freedom. Also, I wanted Alsace Lorraine to go to France. They were not fulfilled at the time when I willed. Many were fulfilled when I no longer wanted them. For instance, I wanted to break the British Empire. Now Hitler wants to do it. But I don't want it now, as it would mean the triumph of Hitler. Wherever he has gone, he has destroyed the higher values of life. If I want that the British must not be destroyed it is not because I like the British Empire, but because I see that it would push back the work tremendously.

Disciple: Doesn't the Divine Will foresee things?

Sri Aurobindo: The Divine foresees everything, lays down the lines of their development, and allows the play of forces to work them out, and in that play of forces it consents to certain things. There is not a fixed will for each individual event, and the result may not lead to a material utility but there are other utilities too.

Disciple: Is the Divine limited?

Sri Aurobindo: Everyone who descends for a spiritual purpose has to be limited. Of course such a limitation is self-imposed, — he consents to the rules of the play of forces and works through that play. This may include running away — like Krishna who fled from the Kāla Yavana.

Disciple: Now Hitler is giving bread to German workers.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, he says they are without food and he is feeding them. It is the Asura spreading his influence like that. He promises that he will bring peace, a new world order, etc.

Disciple: The new order would be that the British declare Dominion Status for India and pass some parts to Germany.

Disciple: Anderson in England has invented an efficient air-raid shelter which is about the size of a sentry's cabin. It is supposed to be proof against any explosion.

Sri Aurobindo: Now the greatest preoccupation of human beings seems to be to find means of destroying each other and of escaping destruction. Man is said to be a rational animal but there is very little reason in these activities. It is the same kind of ingenuity as the animal has; it is only an extension of animal ingenuity. Formerly men used to kill with swords and spears and other weapons.

Disciple: But they could not do it so well as is done now. Now they are spending lakhs of rupees for just one machine or bomb.

Disciple: In his article in the Harijan, R. Gregg strongly advocates the adoption by European nations of the Wardha scheme of the Khadi production by the Charkha.

Sri Aurobindo: But they were also destroying each other even when they were using Charkha in the past!

Disciple: Perhaps not on such a large scale.

Sri Aurobindo: There are cases of the entire population of a city being killed by their primitive methods.

Disciple: Yes, in Baghdad, for instance, Chengiz Khan put up a tower of one lakh human skulls.
27 JUNE 1940

Disciple: In the 27th chapter of The Life Divine, the publishers, in consultation with a professor of English, have changed "founded in" to "founded on" in the final proof.

Sri** Aurobindo:** I have used the same expression in the previous paragraph. They have already suggested "on" and I have not accepted the suggestion, for I have used "in" here purposely.

These people think that they know English better than I do. They are habituated to use current phrases and words in their usual sense but they do not know that a good writer does not always use current phrases and words in their usual meaning.

Disciple: Oh, but they did it after consulting a professor.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but the professor is an Indian. He is not an Englishman. It is these people who have learnt the language that want to use current phrases. As Stephen Phillips said, the English language is like a woman who will love you only if you take liberties with her. Dinshaw Wacha sent me one of his books, and on every page I found forty such worn-out expressions, what they call cliches, and all Indian papers were praising his English. Perhaps an Englishman would have said, "What a horrible style!"
21 JULY 1940

There was a reference to Rajagopalachari's article about the necessity of force for maintaining a State.

Disciple: Bluntschli in his book called The State puts it down as a fundamental principle. Every state is founded on force. President Wilson in his book also maintains, a little apologetically, that all human states are founded on force.

Sri Aurobindo: Of course, so long as man is not cowed down or has not evolved beyond his present condition and become too high to use force, force will be indispensable.

Disciple: In the Supramental creation will there be any force?

Sri Aurobindo: No. Because there you are supposed to go beyond human conditions. But for the ordinary human purposes the State is bound to employ force. Only there are two types of institutions, one which employs force pure and simple and another which is based on agreement and force is employed only to maintain the agreement. That is the difference between democracy and dictatorship. The weakness of democracy is that its rule is based on majority consent, so there will always be a minority that is not satisfied with the condition of things. And if the minority loses the hope of becoming the majority it may resort to force.
3 AUGUST 1940

In a letter to Dilip, Krishnaprem expressed his opinions and ideas about the present war. His points were: 1) The war has already been fought out and its issue decided on the inner planes. 2) Mankind is responsible for the rise of the Asuric forces. 3) Each one must fight the lower forces and side with the Divine in himself.

Sri Aurobindo read the letter and said: "It is quite right to say that the struggle between the forces has been worked out on other planes before it is projected here."

Disciple: He quotes the Gita where Sri Krishna says that the Kauravas were already killed.

Disciple: So the result is already decided.

Sri Aurobindo: Iwould not admit, as he seems to admit, that everything is fixed. Of course the issue has been decided by the Divine and there can be no change in that. But nobody knows that decision of the Divine. And when there is a struggle between the forces it is always possible to change the balance of forces. True, things are decided above and happen in the physical afterwards, but not exactly in the same way. There can be a variation. Of course, there can be no variation in what is decided by the Supreme Vision.

In a way it is quite true that mankind has made the world what it is.

Disciple: He seems to say that Hitler is a result of tendencies which men have been harbouring in themselves. He forgets that the Being behind Hitler may also be responsible for spreading his influence.

Disciple: He feels that England will not be defeated in this war because the English have some purpose to fulfil in the world. So long as they do that, they will not be defeated.

Sri Aurobindo: That's true, though certain forces have been working for the destruction of the Brirish Empire. I myself once worked for it but didn't consider that such forces will arise. But it is quite possible to change that action because if the same result can be achieved in a different manner, then its destruction is not necessary. I would not have minded any result to the British Empire if its destruction did not mean victory for Hitler. But that changes the whole aspect. Krishnaprem puts it in a rather absolute way and does not give sufficient importance to the physical world, or recognise that by a change in the balance of forces the higher decisions can be changed.

Disciple: Is this not all due to the necessity of a new world order?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, evidently. The question is what is that new world order going to be, and how is it to be brought about. He speaks of the psychic attitude to be adopted by everyone. That change is useful for attaining much higher spiritual results. There have always been a small number of people who have embodied that change, but I don't know how that can change world conditions as a whole. Or perhaps by psychic he means mental and vital changes. Even then, I don't know how they can come about if Hitler wins. For the present, everybody seems to be taking refuge in cowardice and trying to save his own skin. If the change desired is to come after Hitler wins, then perhaps it would be after great suffering and through reactions on the part of men to that oppression, or even it might not come at all, or come after the Pralaya. Whereas if by changing the balance of forces the British Empire can be saved and it can win, then the new world order might take place more quiedy and the mental and vital changes necessary would take place without much disturbance and so much destruction.

Disciple: Do you mean that the Supreme's decision can be different from the decision of the subtle worlds?

Sri Aurobindo: Why not? But between the Supreme's Vision and its realisation here, there are many possible variations. In fact, if you speak of destiny, then you must know that there are different layers of destiny. There is, for instance, what the astrologers call the destiny in the physical. There is also a destiny in the vital. By bringing the vital forces into play the destiny in the physical can be changed. So also by bringing the mental forces into play — though it is more difficult — what seems to be the vital destiny can be changed. That is why astrologers rarely prove themselves right because they look at the physical graph of things. Before the Vision of the Supreme is realised on the physical plane there can be variations due to the play of forces on the mental and vital and physical planes. On each of these planes a certain play of forces may show as if the destiny was in favour of one or the other group of forces. And this balance can be changed.

Disciple: But if it is in the Supreme Vision, then the new order is bound to come, is it not?

Disciple: But at present before the Supreme has a chance, there are many others who are ready with their own ideas of the new order.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, everybody seems to be busy with his own world order, and nobody knows about the decision of the Supreme.

Disciple: But how can you say nobody knows? You know! You have said that the Supramental descent is bound to come.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but we have not yet become supramental. I know the descent will come, but I have not fixed the date for it. It may be tomorrow, I don't know.

Disciple: It seems that the Mother said to someone that the Light will descend when there will be darkness all around and no possibility in sight for man.

Sri Aurobindo: Those were not her own words. She was only repeating an ancient prophecy.

Disciple: I suppose the world is sufficiently dark even now, for it is only England that is standing in the way of Hitler's triumph.

Sri Aurobindo: Did you not see the Mother's prayer for this year? It is quite clear. At any rate, those who received it in France perhaps know now what it meant.
18 AUGUST 1940

There was a talk about the music of Bhishmadev. N started the topic by stating that Tagore long ago started a campaign against classical music saying that it was dead. The reason he gave was that classical music was only a performance of mere technique and cleverness; there was no soul in it. Tagore therefore started emphasising the importance of words and their meaning in music. He almost said that words were preferable to notes. Even Dilip strongly supported this argument of Tagore in his articles.

Sri Aurobindo: If it was only the exercise and exhibition of technique and mere skill on the part of the classical musician, then there was no real music in it.

Disciple: For musical appreciation the sound value, the rhythm, harmony, etc. are quite enough. There is no need of words or meaning for the appreciation of music.

Sri Aurobindo: Like all other arts music has its own medium which is sound; it stands by itself. If it depended on words or on poetry then it would be poetical music but not pure music.

Disciple: The classical musicians were only performing the gymnastics of sound and, Tagore said, that there was need of fine and beautiful words for music.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but if it is gymnastics of sound it is not music. Music then would be only a commentary on words!

Disciple: They say that the remedy for reviving music is to give value to word and meaning.

Sri Aurobindo: The conditions are such because classical music has degenerated but it does not mean that it should not be revived; and the remedy is not to give value to words or poetry, but to restore the soul of music. If words are indispensable to the appreciation of music, then how can an Englishman hear Italian music and appreciate it?

Disciple: Tagore is very particular about the tune of his own songs and nobody is allowed to make any change in the notation of his songs. That is why Dilip does not sing his songs.

Sri Aurobindo: I believe Tagore is not much of a musician, is he?

Disciple: By no means! Because he happens to be a great man in other things and has a big name, therefore nobody opposes his claims in fields where he does not know anything.

Sri Aurobindo: It is more or less like his paintings.

Disciple: Not so bad nor so extravagant perhaps.

Disciple: Dilip also thinks that beautiful words are necessary for music.

Sri Aurobindo: That is because he is more of a singer than a musician. Singing is an art by itself.

Disciple: Appreciation of pure music also requires training.

Disciple: Everybody cannot appreciate or form a critical judgment about music. The ear has to be trained and also the aesthetic faculty. One can see in Bhishmadev and Biren that they have not merely technical perfection and rhythm but also they enter into the spirit of the music. And there one can see that it is the notes, the musical value of notes, that create the atmosphere, specially in the case of Biren who merely by playing on a string instrument succeeds in creating a fine atmosphere.

Sri Aurobindo: If words were indispensable to music then most of the European music — and the best of it is without words — would not be called music at all. In pure music words are absolutely not necessary. If you can't have pure music without words, then one can also say that one cannot paint a subject which is not literary. It is fortunate that European music has not suffered the same fate as modernist painting and poetry; the modernists have not been able to spoil European music. It is difficult to have cubism in music.

Disciple: It is difficult to throw about cubes of sound because they are sure to hurt the ear.

Beethoven's symphonies are only musical notations and played with the violin and piano. One of the reasons why North Indians fail, or find it difficult, to appreciate South Indian music is because they are prevented by words, and also perhaps because it is more intellectual. When you hear Bhishmadev's singing you see that he is conscious only of the notes and their musical value, not merely of the words and their meaning. Whatever he wants to express in his music, whether an emotion or a state of consciousness, he does it through notes and not words. His very gestures show that he is working with notes.

Disciple: Some people say that Dilip's music is more spiritual while that of Bhishmadev and others is not spiritual.

Disciple: That is because Dilip is singing religious songs and Bhajans.

Disciple: Can pure music be spiritual?

Sri Aurobindo: Of course.

Disciple: What I have found in Dilip's music is that the atmosphere he creates is not due to his music but to something else, perhaps due to his personality or the being that is in him. I have also seen that if one goes to his music with the idea of expecting sound values and rhythms he is likely to be disappointed.

Disciple: So far as the spiritual atmosphere is concerned it does not require a great musician to produce it. A spiritual person singing a very ordinary song can create a spiritual atmosphere.

Sri Aurobindo: That's true. That is why I don't grant the contention of the modernist poet who says that in order to appreciate his rhythm you must hear the poem recited by him. A clever elocutionist can make much out of a commonplace poem. He can produce rhythm where there is none in the original.

Disciple: Some people say that they like Dilip's poetry when he recites it but they cannot appreciate it when they read it themselves. It is also difficult to appreciate his poetry unless one knows the rhythms and new turns which he has introduced, because his rhythms are quite different from those of Tagore.

Sri Aurobindo: What I have found in Dilip's poetry is that it is mental poetry connected with the Bengali poetry of the pre-Tagorian era. Perhaps it is due to his father's influence which was also intellectual. What I mean is that Tagore introduced a new element of feeling and imagination in Bengali poetry; as he is a genius his poetry is beautiful but much of what is written under Tagore's influence is wishy-washy stuff, it is poetry without any backbone. There is no sound experience behind it. Even in Tagore you find that his idea is diffused into seventy or eighty lines, yet it does not come out clearly though the idea is there. In pre-Tagorian poetry they had clear intellectual ideas to express and they expressed them poetically. Dilip's poetry has two things: the subject and the treatment. Generally the subject is an idea which he develops, an intellectual thing which he expresses in poetic form; and his technique is a departure both from Tagore and the old tradition.

Disciple: In novel-writing it is found that Sharat Chatterji was far superior to Tagore as a story writer.

Disciple: Tagore criticised Dilip's story on the ground that there was very little action in it. In fact he said that the story must have a story, not mere discussions. But in his own stories there is very little action: they are also what are called intellectual stories.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, I found in Dilip's story, when I turned over the pages, that somebody or other was talking on every page.

Disciple: Or sometimes there are long letters in the novel and interminable replies.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, all sorts of things that are not native to the purpose of the novel are being put into it by the moderns. So, instead of writing a pamphlet they write a novel, instead of delivering a sermon they write a story — they write a story even for journalistic purposes! It is like Shaw's dramas. All his characters are meant only to represent different sides of the questions which he takes up in his drama.
15 SEPTEMBER 1940

Disciple: Has the individual no reality except as a puppet?

Sri Aurobindo: That is Shankara's stand.

Disciple: Another question is: If the Divine is already there and does everything then why do Yoga? Because Sri Krishna says to Arjuna in the Gita that you have only to become the Nimitta, the instrument. So the Christian's criticism is that the individual becomes meaningless, without any justification or fulfilment. The Gita is preaching pure mechanism or unconsciousness.

Sri Aurobindo: But the Gita does not say that you are "compelled" to become the Nimitta. It says "Bhava" — become. It does not say that you have no existence except as the Nimitta. Even if Arjuna does not become the Nimitta, Sri Krishna says that he will do the work in his own way. Even when you find that the Divine has decreed the result, it is the result that is decreed but not the Nimitta, that is, anything else could have been the Nimitta.

The Individual, the Universal and the Transcendental are the One in different positions. "I am the Lord in each," says the Gita.

Disciple: If the Divine does everything then we have to conclude that ignorance is unreal.

Sri Aurobindo: Ignorance is not unreal; it is real, that is to say, there is a Truth that corresponds to it.

Disciple: The aim of Sadhana is freedom from ego, from the bondage of ego. What is to be done after that?

Sri Aurobindo: It is the first indispensable step. But there are many possibilities after that freedom. For example, he may remain confined to his own nature or to the apparent ego in nature, though free. Or he may open equally to cosmic forces and act as Bala, Jada, Pishacha or Unmatta. Or he may be one with the Divine and act and would also be free not to act. In case he acts, he is the individual centre of the cosmic forces for Divine action. He is one with the Divine, yet remains a separate self— yet free. The cosmic forces would be available to him for Divine action.
28 NOVEMBER 1940

Letters from Kabul and from Ella Millard: change in attitude towards Gabriel; effective representation of Ella.

A copy of Gandhi's will or political will, spoken orally and taken down and distributed to Gandhi Seva Sangh, was brought by Abhaya Deva Sharma. It was read out to Sri Aurobindo.

The following are notes of Sri Aurobindo's comments today:

Sri Aurobindo: Something in Gandhi takes delight in suffering for its own sake. Even the prospect of suffering seems to please him! Though he puts in a lot of ethics for his justification, the fact is that something in him enjoys suffering.

Secondly, if he knows that to the British Government fifty Gandhis would not matter, what does he propose then to achieve politically by his fast? And he also knows that the British people are not even going to consider the possibility of Ahimsa.

It is the Christian idea that has taken hold of him. Besides, he seems to think that after him his theory and creed of non-violence will continue. I don't think so. A few people will be there, but anything like a wide-scale influence like that of his personality does not seem possible.

I don't object to a world order but I object to Hitler's world order. The book Psychology of Social Development must remain unpublished so long as the war lasts because I must know whether Hitler goes up or goes down. Our European publications have been stopped on account of the war.

My contribution to the War Fund cannot be called my taking part in politics! It was made in view of the much wider issues about which I have spoken of in my letters — the issues of human culture and individual and national liberty — and as the English are the only race that stand up for it, I support them.

The English won't be acting according to justice? But why should they? Which nation acts on the principles of justice? How can we expect them to fulfil a standard which we ourselves can't satisfy?

What is justice after all? To the socialist, denial of all property and the liquidation of capitalism is justice. To the capitalist justice is something else.

The Indian problem has been very badly bungled by all, Jinnah and the Congress and the Mahasabha. They have not been able to play their cards well. That is why they are losing the game.

The Congress is asking for freedom of expression, but it does not give its own members the freedom to express their ideas if they are against its official policy!

There are two ways of securing freedom. One is by force, by revolution. But that cannot succeed so long as we have the Jinnahs and others. The only course open is compromise. There you have to give and take — provided you know your opponent. Generally the English do not want to go to the extreme, to be continuously repressing people. After a time they come to a compromise. Generally, they arrange the bargain in such a way that they gain in the compromise. They want to be respected. They don't like to be called bad.

Fasting and Satyagraha in order to change the heart of the opponent is absurd. If it changes anything, it may be only the mind, not the heart. What the Congress can do is to exert pressure and secure some concessions. It can't succeed if it challenges the very existence of the other force. A man may not like to face the consequences and so he will give in without any change of heart. For instance, Gandhi succeeded in settling the Ahmedabad mill-workers demands because the owners did not want to earn public obloquy. So they gave concessions to his demands. But suppose instead of some demand for amelioration he had asked them to hand over the mills to the workers, he would not have succeeded.

The English have a constitutional mind. Once they give their word, they don't go back upon it. They don't want anyone else to walk into India when they walk out of it. They are afraid of that happening if they leave India now. It would certainly mean civil war and any other power could walk into India. They have announced that they would grant Dominion Status, which amounts to Independence except in one or two matters like defence and foreign affairs.

They don't care for world opinion about India because the opinion they consider important is American opinion. But as all are afraid of Hitler, no one will speak against England for her Indian policy at present. And also they are not quite wrong when they say that the Indians must settle their own differences.

The Lucknow Pact [of 1916] has proved a great blunder. The Mahommedans want to rule India.

If Gandhi undertakes his fast for self-purification or for a spiritual end it is one thing, but how can he gain political power by it? It is only the British Government who gives way to such pressure. Against Germany, or Japan, or Russia, or even France, it would have no chance.

( In connection with the attempt on Vallabhbhai's life after the Amreli and Rajkot affairs): Virawal is a match for Gandhi.

Going to jail is useful because it can help a nation in consolidating and organising itself. If the programme is fully carried out, ultimately, the ruling power, if it is oppressive, can be thrown out.
29 NOVEMBER 1940

Kasturbhai's Arvind Mills of Ahmedabad was using Sri Aurobindo's pictures on its products without permission and without paying any consideration. Seeing one of the pictures Sri Aurobindo said, "The other one we saw made me look like a criminal. This one makes me look like an imbecile — not only in the eyes but around the mouth too. How can they do such things?"

It was represented to him that legal action could be taken against the Mills, but he did not wish to press that aspect of the matter.
31 DECEMBER 1940

Disciple: On what does receptivity depend?

Sri Aurobindo: On quietude, openness and wideness.

One cant receive if he is disturbed and also what he receives can't be effective without quietude. Quietude means quietude of the mind, the vital and the physical. The most difficult quietude is that of the inconscient.

One can develop openness by will and instil quietude also by throwing away all disturbance through aspiration, will, effort, etc.
***
NOVEMBER-DECEMBER, 1939 1941-1943
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