object:2.18 - January 1939
book class:Evening Talks With Sri Aurobindo
author class:A B Purani
subject class:Integral Yoga
class:chapter
JANUARY 1939
JANUARY 1939
1 JANUARY 1939
Disciple: How can one succeed in meditation?
Sri Aurobindo: By quietude of the mind. Above the Mind there is not only the Infinite in itself but an infinite sea of peace, joy, light, power, etc. The golden lid — hiraṇmaya pātra — intervenes between that which is above Mind and what is below. Once one can break that lid those elements can come down at any time one wills, and for that, quietude is necessary. There are people who get those things without quietude, but it is very difficult.
Disciple: It is said that there is also a veil in the heart. Is it true?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, a veil or a wall, if you like. The vital with its surface consciousness, the emotional with its disturbances, are veils and one has to break through these and get to what is behind them. There, one finds the heart. In some people the Higher Force works behind the veil because it would meet with many obstacles if it worked in front; it builds or breaks whatever is necessary till one day the veil is rent and one finds oneself in the Infinite.
Disciple: Does the Higher Force work all the time, even when there is no aspiration in the individual?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. In those who have the inner urge, the intermittent action of aspiration itself may be due to the action of the Higher Force from behind.
Disciple: We want to know how to get the infinite peace etc.
Sri Aurobindo: First, to want only that. It is difficult, is it not? In that case you have to wait; Yoga demands patience. The old Yogas say that one has to wait twelve years to get any experience at all. Only after that period can one complain. But you said that you had many experiences, so, it is not so bad.
Disciple: Yes. I told you that meditation used to come to me at my place spontaneously, at any time, and I had to sit down to meditate. Sometimes, it used to come while I was just going to my office and the experience of peace etc. used to last for some days. But sometimes for a long period nothing happens. One should get some experience at least once in a fortnight.
Disciple: Sometimes I feel a pull on the head upwards. What is it due to?
Sri Aurobindo: Of course, it is not in the physical head but in the subtle body, the mind trying to ascend towards the Higher Consciousness.
Disciple: If one dreams or sees visions of seas, hills, etc., what do they mean?
Sri Aurobindo: These are symbols: the sea of energy, the hill of the Being with its different planes and parts — the Spirit at the summit. These visions are quite common; one sees them as the mind and the heart expand.
Disciple: I felt at one time that my head was at the Mother's feet. What is it, Sir?
Sri Aurobindo: It is the experience of the psychic being. So, you had the psychic experience.
Disciple: I told you how I had it and lost it through fear that I was dying. But I could not recognise this experience as psychic. (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: It is this 'I' that comes in the way. One must forget it and experience as if it were happening to somebody else. If one could do that it would be a great conquest. When I had the Nirvana experience I forgot myself completely. I was a sort of nobody. What is the use of your being Mr. so and so, son of so and so? If your 'I' had died it would have been a glorious death.
Disciple: What happens when the human consciousness is replaced by the Divine Consciousness?
Sri Aurobindo: One feels perpetual calm, perpetual strength — one is aware of Infinity, lives not only in Infinity but in Eternity. One feels the immortality and does not care about the death of the body, and one has the consciousness of the One in all. Everything becomes the manifestation of the Brahman. For instance, as I look round the room I see everything as the Brahman — it is not thinking, it is a concrete experience, even the wall, the book is Brahman. I see you not as X but as a divine being in the Divine. It is a wonderful experience.
2 JANUARY 1939
Dr. S the homeopath came. Mother came while he was talking about patients' faith and the price of homeopathic drugs. Then he said, "I think the Mother is testing me."
Mother: That is not the practice here. It is the play of the forces, or rather the play of adverse forces that tries to test the sadhak. If you refuse to listen to them or remain firm, they withdraw. People here have plenty of difficulties already, why add new ones? To say we purposely test them is not true. We never do it — never.
( After some talk about the cost of homeopathic drugs, Dr. S took leave. Mother went away early at 6:45 but did not go down for the evening meditation before nearly 7:25 or 7:30.)
Disciple: How far is it desirable for the Ashram to be self-sufficient?
Sri Aurobindo: Self-sufficient in what way?
Disciple: In meeting the needs of the daily life, for instance, preparing our own cloths here. My friend, who has come from Bombay, wants that we should introduce spindles and looms to make our cloths. The question is whether and how far such self-sufficiency is desirable in an Ashram like ours.
Sri Aurobindo: It is not a question of how far it is desirable, it is also a question of how far it is practicable. No objection to spinning or weaving. How would N like to go on spinning?
Disciple: I am already spinning away.
Sri Aurobindo: There are all sorts of mental ideas, or rather mental formations which can be carried out and which are being carried out at the other places but this Ashram is not the fit place for carrying them out.
Disciple: In what way it is not fit?
Sri Aurobindo: There are many difficulties here.
You point to institutions like Dayalbagh. In that case you will have to direct all your energies in that channel leaving the Sadhana on one side.
In other organisations they impose discipline and obedience from outside, by rule or force. There, people are obliged to take their orders from someone. But here we don't impose such discipline and therefore you can hardly get people to work together. It is because of their ego and their idea of mental independence.
Even if you want to do the kind of work done by those organisations there are two things you must guard against: First, the tendency to degenerate into mere mechanical and commercial activity. Secondly, ambition: there is a natural tendency to cut a figure before the world, to hold that the Ashram and the Ashramites are something great — that must go. Lastly there is health — unless the doctor promises to homeopathise the sadhaks into health.
Work as part of Sadhana is all right, but work as part of spiritual creation we cannot take up unless the inner difficulties are overcome. It is not that we don't want to do it, but a spiritual creation cannot be done according to mental constructions — it must be left entirely to the Mother's intuition. Even then there are difficulties!
Disciple: What is the difference between peace and silence?
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean?
Disciple: Is peace included in silence or vice versa?
Sri Aurobindo: If you have silence you have peace, but the opposite may not be true, i.e., you may have peace but not silence.
Disciple: Is silence mere emptiness?
Sri Aurobindo: No, not necessarily. It may be full of the positive presence of the Divine.
Disciple: Is that not a dull and dry state?
Sri Aurobindo: No, not necessarily. As Isaid, it can be full of the presence of the Divine, or it may be mental peace accompanied by a sense of emptiness which may seem dull to the mind, but the emptiness is for something higher to come in and fill it.
Disciple: In that emptiness — shunyam — there is a great release, is it not?
Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes. It is a very pleasant state. People like Russell don't understand what this emptiness means. As soon as they try to go within they begin to feel empty and do not like it. They think that all that comes into the consciousness comes from outside. They have no idea that there are inner things with which the being can be filled.
Disciple: But you said in one of your letters to B that one must be prepared to pass through the period of dryness.
Sri Aurobindo: There is an experience of neutral peace of mind which may be dry and dull to the ordinary man.
Disciple: Can one act when one has the silence?
Sri Aurobindo: Certainly! Why not? When I talk of silence I mean inner silence. It is perfectly possible to hear and do all sorts of things and retain that inner silence.
Disciple: Is the silence static and dynamic both?
Sri Aurobindo: It is not silence that is dynamic — but you can become dynamic having that inner silence. You can also remain without doing anything. It depends. People who are dynamic can't remain without doing something. They do not realise that if they have the inner silence the effectivity of their outer work is increased a hundredfold.
A Maratha came to see me here and inquired what I was doing. When he heard that I was doing 'nothing', he said, "It is a great thing if one can do it. It is a great capacity to be able to do nothing!"
Disciple: There is one gentleman who actually sealed up his lips with something so that he may not be able to speak.
Sri Aurobindo: That is what is called Asuric tapasya.
Disciple: Can one gain something by it?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, all Tapasya can give you something. Physical and vital tapasya can also give you something. It can give you physical and vital control, though that is more a nigraha — repressed control — than anything else.
Disciple: Is it part of divine realisation? What is divine realisation?
Sri Aurobindo: The experience of peace and bliss is a spiritual realisation. If one gains control of the vital being by the influence of the Self, that is a divine realisation.
Disciple: But one can have the necessary control by the mind rather than try such physical and outward control.
Sri Aurobindo: These things may be steps to the Divine; for example Hatha Yoga and Raja Yoga.
Disciple: Our friend X finds that yogis have defects.
Sri Aurobindo: It is not the defects that are important but whatever leads to the upward growth, to the Divine, adding something to his stature, is a gain to the human progress towards the Light. No upward progress is to be despised.
3 JANUARY 1939
There was a hearty laugh over the thesis of a Marathi writer with socialistic tendencies who tried to prove that Swami Ramdas was a socialist!
Disciple: Some of our sadhaks seem to be too delicate: a small cut or even the smell of burning ghee upsets them. Sometimes other people who cannot understand this say this is mere feinting.
Sri Aurobindo: They used to brand the body with a hot iron to see if the man was in trance or not! They thought perhaps that it might be only deep trance and not Nirvikalpa Samadhi! (Laughter)
Disciple: Can it be that the man would not feel anything?
Sri Aurobindo: Even a deep trance is quite sufficient for this kind of unawareness. There are cases of people who, when under hypnotic influence, are unaffected by pins being stuck into their bodies. And also there are cases where a man is made to stretch out his arm and even two or three strong people cannot bend it.
Disciple: What is that capacity due to?
Sri Aurobindo: There are no physical causes. These phenomena are due to supraphysical causes and there the laws of the physical do not apply. There are also cases in which sugar tastes bitter under hypnotic influence. Now the question is whether sweetness or any other property is in the subject — as in the sense of beauty — or in the object.
Disciple: But then what is sweetness due to in the case of sugar?
Sri Aurobindo: The question is whether experience of sweetness is a common reaction of all human beings, or has sugar anything in it corresponding to the experience of sweetness.
Disciple: But something of the property of the object persists, like the effect of medicine in homeopathic doses — the smallest quantity retains the quality.
Disciple: But what is your conclusion, Sir?
Sri Aurobindo: I don't know.
( At this point the Mother came and the subject matter was reported to her.)
Mother: I do not believe that the phenomena were due to hypnotism. In hypnotism you impose control on another man, that is to say, your will replaces his will.
But I know what I have seen. In most cases I have seen that both the hypnotiser and the hypnotised lend themselves unconsciously to the influence of occult forces. Anything that takes place in that condition is due to the influence of those forces. I know one case, an extraordinary case, of exteriorization in which almost down to the material — the vital and the vital-material — form of the subject was separated from his body. If the hypnotiser controls the man and if he has good will it may do the subject no harm. But in most cases he keeps himself aloof to direct the person and cannot take charge of the body and in the interval it is some other forces that take possession of the body. It is dangerous to do these things except under guidance or in the presence of somebody who knows these things.
You find people speaking languages in that unconscious condition which they do not know at all. It is because some of their being in the past, or subconsciously, knows the language and in that state, a contact is established with that part of the subconscient and they speak that language. It is not as if the hypnotist willed that "the man shall speak a particular language" and the man begins to speak that language even though there may be no part in him that knew the language. Such a thing is impossible. Only if there is a part that knows, and if one can establish a contact with it, then one can speak that language.
( Then Mother departed for the meditation.)
Disciple: Is this knowledge indispensable for Yoga?
Sri Aurobindo: Not necessarily. It is useful for knowledge of the physical; also for mastery over death, it is essential.
There is an ancient prophecy in the Jewish Cabala that the kingdom of God would be established in humanity when the man will come who would have the power to die and come back, i.e., take up his body again after death. It is essential to know what is death if you want to conquer it. That shows that the ancients foresaw the need of the knowledge and also that of transformation of the physical.
It is curious how some people can easily separate their subtle bodies from the physical, say in three or four days even. They go out of the body and see their body lying in front of them, while there are others who do not succeed.
This knowledge is also useful in curing diseases. For instance, it is perfectly easy to prevent diseases and to cure them if you have the knowledge of these planes. There is what is called 'the nervous envelope', which is between the subtle and the gross body. It is that which acts as a sheath protecting you against all attacks of diseases. If the nervous envelope is intact no disease can come to you. In most people, with aging, this envelope wears out and then gradually the forces are able to penetrate and pierce it. That is one of the causes of death.
Disciple: Can this nervous envelope be seen in the patient?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, and if you can see what is necessary you can put it in. In order to keep it intact you must have quiet, a balanced life, rest, etc. People generally spoil it by excitement and other irregularities.
In the case of exteriorization done by the Tibetans, a thin thread is maintained when one leaves the body and if that is snapped the man may not be able to return to his body.
Disciple: There are cases of Tibetans who expose themselves to ice without any bad reactions and also there was the report of a messenger who practically flies throughout Tibet carrying the tidings of the Dalai Lama.
Sri Aurobindo: These are known phenomena.
Disciple: There are so many miracles reported about Sj. Bijoy Goswami. Do you think they are all true?
Sri Aurobindo: I have no personal knowledge of them. But I believe most of the miracles attributed to Bijoy Goswami are more possible with the subtle than with the physical body.
Sri Aurobindo then recounted the story of how Mother was once on the point of death in Algeria when she was practising occultism with Théon and his wife, both of them great occultists. Madame Théon particularly was a remarkable woman.
Sri Aurobindo: The Mother once exteriorised herself and visited her friends in Paris. The exteriorization was sufficiently material to enable her to write on a piece of paper with pencil.
The Tibetans are more familiar with occultism than with spirituality. The Europeans are more taken up with these occult things. They either believe everything or nothing. That explains their attraction for Tibet, Bhutan and other places with occult atmosphere. Nowadays stories and novels are being written with these themes. Japanese Zen Buddhism, and Chinese Taoism have also attracted their attention.
I also wrote some stories but they are lost; the white ants have finished them and with them has perished my future fame as a story-teller. (Laughter)
But it is a pity that my translation of Meghaduta in terza rimas was lost. It was well done. Most of my stories were occult.
4 JANUARY 1939
X's face showed the usual expression which to the company present indicated the coming of a question.
Disciple: What is the effect of fasting?
Sri Aurobindo: On what?
Disciple: The effect of fasting on Yoga.
Sri Aurobindo: Oh, on Yoga? It gives a sort of excitement or an impetus to the vital being but the general effect does not seem to be sound or healthy.
I fasted twice: once in Alipore Jail for ten days and the other time in Pondicherry for twenty-three days. At Alipore I was in full yogic activities. I was not taking my food, and was throwing it away in the bucket. Of course, the Superintendent did not know it; only the warder knew about it and he informed others saying; "The gent;eman must be ill; he will not live long." Though my weight was diminishing I was able to raise a pail of water above my head which I could not do ordinarily.
At Pondicherry while fasting I was in full mental and vital vigour. I was even walking eight hours a day and not feeling tired at all, and when I broke the fast I did not begin slowly but with the usual normal food.
Disciple: How is it possible to have such energy without food?
Sri Aurobindo: One draws the energy from the vital plane instead of depending upon physical sustenance. Once in Calcutta I lived for a long time on rice and bananas only. It is a very good diet.
Disciple: The trouble is that one can't draw conclusions from your case.
Sri Aurobindo: At least one can draw the conclusion that it can be done! Once R. C. Dutt called me to dinner and was surprised to find that I was taking only vegetarian diet, while he could not live without meat. With the vegetarian diet I was feeling light and pure. It is only a belief that one can't do without meat; it is a question of habit.
Disciple: Can fasting be a cure for diseases also?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, if you know the process. The Europeans sometimes fast for that purpose, but in their case it is the mental idea that works. You start with the idea of being well or ill, and it happens accordingly.
Disciple: Can neurasthenia be thrown off like that?
Sri Aurobindo: In the case of neurasthenic and hysteric persons the nervous envelope is damaged.
Disciple: Then it is the question of the nervous sheath.
Sri Aurobindo: All the diseases come from outside. The force of the disease pierces what the Mother calls 'the nervous envelope' and then enters the physical body. If one is conscious of the nervous envelope — the subtle nervous sheath — then the disease can be thrown away before it enters the physical body, as one throws away the thoughts before they enter the mind.
Disciple: X told us once that she used to have a headache which was just above the head and it was very severe. We laughed at it because we could not believe that a headache could be above the head.
Sri Aurobindo: How do you know there can't be such a headache? If the consciousness can be lifted above the head and remain there why not the headache?
The body is a mere mass of responsive vibrations; everything comes from outside and finds a response in the body.
Disciple: If everything comes from outside then what are we? What belongs to us?
Sri Aurobindo: In one sense nothing belongs to you. The physical is made up, one can say, of various predispositions, energies due to heredity, your past lives, i.e., sum of energies of the past, and what you have acquired in this life. These are there ready to act under favourable conditions, under the pressure of Nature. It is Universal Nature that gives the sense of 'I' or "I am doing everything." This 'I' and 'mine' have no meaning except in the ordinary sense.
Disciple: The other day I could not understand what you said about fundamental personality. What is the truth behind personality?
Sri Aurobindo: There are two things: Personality and the Person, which are not the same. The true Person is the eternal Divine Purusha assuming many personalities and it is thrown in Time as the Cosmic and the Individual for a particular purpose, use or work. This true Person is all the time conscious of its identity with the Cosmic. That is why liberation is possible.
Disciple: Is cosmic liberation static or dynamic?
Sri Aurobindo: It is either, or both. In the static aspect one realises the pure Self as the Infinite, One, without movement, action or duality.
In the dynamic liberation, it depends upon where and how you experience the Unity. If it is in the mind, you feel your mind as one with the Cosmic Mind; in that case your own mind does not exist. If you feel the Unity in the vital, then your vital being becomes a part of the Cosmic Vital, one with Cosmic Life. You can experience the Unity on the physical plane; then you feel your body as a speck of Universal Matter. Or, the identity can be above the mind, by breaking open the lid that divides the Mind from the Infinite. Just as there is a wall that separates the psychic being from the outer nature, so also there is a wall above the head. You break that wall, or what is called the lid, and you feel yourself as the Infinite, and your individual self in the Infinite. That opening can be either vertical or horizontal. This realization makes dynamic liberation possible — not merely a liberation of Laya.
Disciple: Is it true that illness comes from Sadhana?
Sri Aurobindo: From Sadhana? Not necessarily.
Disciple: I think he means that illness may come in the course of Sadhana for purification.
Sri** Aurobindo:** That is a different thing. It can be a circumstance in the sadhana.
Disciple: When I was a newcomer here and used to have physical troubles, people said it was due to Sadhana and so I used to hide it from you lest you should stop the use of your Force.
Disciple: Some Sufis and Bhaktas take illness and other troubles as gifts from the Beloved, the Divine. So, can one say that everything comes from the Divine?
Sri Aurobindo: They are right in a way. They take everything as coming from the Divine and it is a very good attitude if one can truly take it. Whatever happens is with the sanction of the Supreme. If you neglect the chain of intermediate causes there is a Superior Cause to everything.
Disciple: If a thing happens due to our negligence, can we say that it happened by the Divine's sanction?
Sri** Aurobindo:** I said, "neglecting the intermediate causes".
Disciple: Would there not be some danger in that attitude? We may shirk our responsibilities and lay it on the Divine.
Sri Aurobindo: I said that about the Bhakta, not about everybody. For the Bhakta what happens is the best and he takes it in that light.
For the Yogi who has to conquer these things they will come, otherwise there would be nothing to overcome. It would be no real conquest at all. One can always feel the difficulties as opportunities, and in one sense one can say that whatever happens is for the best. Hostile forces are recognised as hostile, but from another standpoint they become the Divine power throwing out attacks for the work to be done. Ultimately all powers are from the Divine, they assist in the work. They throw up difficulties to test the strength. It is the Divine that has created the opposition and it is the Divine who sends you the defeat so that you may conquer the difficulties hereafter. This is necessary also to counter the egos sense of responsibility.
At one time I experienced the hostile forces as the gods trying to test my strength. You have to act not for success but for the sake of the Divine, though it does not mean that you must not work for success. Arjuna complains to Sri Krishna in the Gita that he speaks in "double words" saying: "Do not be eager for the result" and at the same time "Fight and conquer."
Disciple: There was a letter from our friend X in which he has tried to show that the Gita is a book on psychoanalysis and that Sri Krishna was a great psychoanalyst! He psychoanalysed Arjuna and worked out his complexes. He was very much perturbed at your denunciation of Freud's psychoanalysis in the Bases of Yoga. You have run down the greatest discovery of modern times.
Sri Aurobindo: Psychoanalysis means that the subconscient is there in man and it influences the consciousness. It means to say that if you suppress anything it goes down into your being and comes up in queer and abnormal forms.
Disciple: What, according to them, is this subconscient?
Sri Aurobindo: They say it is inconscient. Then how does it throw up everything and raise symbols in your consciousness? Modern psychology is only surface deep. Really speaking a new basis is needed for psychology. The only two important requisites for real knowledge of psychology are: Going inwards, and identification. And those two are not possible without Yoga.
5 JANUARY 1939
Dr R came. There was the usual discussion about removal of the splints on Sri Aurobindo's leg, growth of the bone, etc. After he left Mother said she had seen cases where even at the age of 33 the skull had not completely ossified, adding "In such cases the brain goes on developing." After she left, X mentioned the arrest of a young politician which set the ball rolling.
Disciple: What was your age when you entered politics openly?
Sri Aurobindo: About thirty-three years.
Disciple: When did you begin yoga?
Sri Aurobindo: Sometime in 1905.
Disciple: How did you begin? Was it with the Nirvana experience at Baroda?
Sri Aurobindo: God knows how! It began very early perhaps. When I landed in Bombay a great calm and quiet descended upon me. Then there was the experience of the Self, the Purusha. Later there were other characteristic experiences — at Poona on the Parvati hills, and in Kashmir on the Shankaracharya hill — a sense of a great infinite Reality was felt. It was very real.
At Baroda, Deshpande tried to convert me to yoga, but I had the usual ideas about it — that one has to go to the forest and give up everything. But I was interested in the freedom of the country. I had always thought that the great men of the world could not have been after a chimera and if there was such a Power why not use it for the freedom of the country?
Barin used to experiment with planchette and table-rapping. Once he called our father who made some remarkable prophecies. When asked to give proof of his identity he mentioned his having given a gold watch to Barin — none in the company knew about it. Then he spoke of a picture on the wall of the house of Devdhar, who was present. They tried to check up but found no picture there. The spirit when told about it, asked us to look again. When Devdhar asked his mother, she said that there was an old picture which had been plastered over. At another seance Tilak was present. When questioned about Tilak, the spirit said, "He will be the man who will remain with head unbent when your work will be on trial and others will bow down." Then once we called Ramakrishna. He did not say anything. Only at the end he said, mandir gadho — build a temple, which we interpreted as starting a temple for political sannyasis, but which later I interpreted correctly as "Make a temple in yourself."
I began Pranayama around 1905. Devdhar was a disciple of Brahmananda and I took instructions from him. I practised it in Khaserao Jadhav's house in Baroda. The results were remarkable: I used to see some visions — luminous patterns, figures, etc. Secondly, I felt a sort of electric power round my head. Thirdly, I began to have a very rapid flow of poetry. My powers of writing poetry were nearly dried up, but after the practice of Pranayama, they revived with great vigour and I could write both prose and poetry with a tremendous speed. That flow has never ceased since then. If I have not written much afterwards it is because I had something else to do. But the moment I want to write, it is there. Fourthly, my health improved — I grew stout and strong and the skin became smooth and fair and there was a flow of sweetness in the saliva. I used to feel a certain aura round the head. There were plenty of mosquitoes there but they did not come to me. I used to sit more and more in Pranayama but there were no more results.
It was at that time that I gave up meat diet and found a great feeling of lightness and purification in the system. Meat is a rajasic food. That is why the Kshatriyas did not give it up. Vivekananda recommended it to Indians because it gives a certain force and energy in the physical. From Tamas you pass into Rajas, Vivekananda was not quite wrong.
There came a Naga Sannyasi who gave me a Stotra of Kali, — a very violent Stotra ending with jahi, jahi — kill, kill — for securing India's freedom. I used to repeat it but it did not give any results.
Once I visited Ganganath [at Chandod] after Brahmananda's death when Keshwananda was there [in charge].
With my Europeanised mind I had no faith in image worship and I hardly believed in the presence of God. I went to Karnali [near Chandod] where there are many temples. There is one of Kali, and when I looked at the image I saw the living Presence there. For the first time I believed in the presence of God.
At one time, in Sadhana, I used to try all sorts of experiments to see what happens and how far they are related to the truth. I took Bhang, Ganja, hemp, and other intoxicants as I wanted to know what happens and why sannyasis and sadhus take these things. It made me go into trance, and sometimes sent me to a superior plane of consciousness. [But reliance on these outer stimulants was found to be the greatest drawback of this method.]
I met Lele when I was searching for some guidance and practised meditation under his guidance. I had the Nirvana experience in Sardar Majumdar's house in the room on the top floor. After that I had to rely on inner guidance for my Sadhana. In Alipore the Sadhana was very fast, it was extravagant and exhilarating. On the vital plane it can be dangerous and disastrous. I took to fasting at Alipore for ten or eleven days and lost ten pounds in weight. At Pondicherry the loss of weight was not so much, though the physical substance began to be reduced. It was in Shankar Chetty's house. I was walking eight hours a day during a twenty-three days' fast.
The miraculous or extraordinary powers acquired by Yogis on the vital plane are not all true in the physical. There are many pitfalls in the Vital. The vital powers take up even a man like Hitler and make him do things by suggesting to him — "It shall happen." There are quite a number of cases of sadhaks here who have lost their Sadhana by listening to these voices from the vital world. And the humour of it all is that they all say that they come either from the Mother or from me!
6 JANUARY 1939
Disciple: What are the methods in Sadhana for removal of the ego?
Sri Aurobindo: There are two methods of effacement of the ego: By realisation of the Spirit above and of its nature of purity, knowledge etc. And secondly, by humility in the heart.
Disciple: What is the difference?
Sri Aurobindo: The second method does not remove the ego but makes it harmless; it would therefore help one spiritually. Complete removal of the ego takes place when one identifies oneself with the Spirit and realises the same Spirit in all. Also when the mental, vital and physical nature is known to be derived from the universal mind, universal vital and the universal physical, then the same result ensues. The individual must realise his divinity i.e. his identity with the Transcendent or the Cosmic Divine.
Generally, when one realises the Spirit, it is the mental sense of the ego that goes, not the entire ego-sense. The dynamic nature retains the ego, especially the vital ego. So, the best thing would be to combine the two — for the psychic attitude of humility helps in getting rid of the vital ego.
The complete dissolution of the ego is not an easy thing. Specially important is the removal of mental and vital ego; the ego of the physical and of the subconscient can be dealt with at leisure, that is to say, they are not so absorbing.
As I said, humility helps in the removal of the vital ego, but one must remember that it is not outward humility. There are many people who profess and show the utmost outward humility, but in their hearts think "I am the man!"
Disciple: Desai, when he came here for a short stay, found that you lacked the virtue of humility or modesty.
Sri Aurobindo: How does he know? Perhaps Idid not profess like some other people that Iwas nothing. Icould not do that because I know Iam not nothing.
Disciple: Were you modest when you had not taken to Yoga?
Sri Aurobindo: There was a sort of voluntary self-effacement, I liked to keep myself in the background. But I can't say that I was more modest within than most people.
Disciple: Mahatmaji, when he finds somebody in disagreement with him on principle, says: "He is superior to me, he is my elder, but I differ from him."
Sri Aurobindo: But does he really consider the other superior, that is the question. When I differed from someone I simply said "No," or "I don't agree," and kept to my view. My answer to Suren Banerji when he invited our party to unite with his group in order to jointly fight the dominant right wing of the Moderates at the U.P. Convention, was "No," and I kept stiff. For it would have necessitated our being appointed as delegates by his party and accepting the constitution imposed at Surat. I spoke at most twenty or thirty words and the whole thing failed. Perhaps one would not call me modest.
At the Hoogly Provincial Conference we Nationalists had the majority. There was a great row and confusion in the open session and Ashwini Dutt used to jump up and say, "This is life!" But in order to keep unity I asked the Nationalists not to oppose the Moderate resolution and leave the hall quietly so that they would not have to vote. The Moderate leaders were very angry that people did not any more follow their tried and veteran leaders but so completely obeyed the young leaders. Suren Banerji could not realise the difference between old, upper middle class leadership due to their influence and money and the new leadership of those who stood for a principle and commanded a following.
It was at that time that people began to get the sense of discipline and of obeying the leaders orders. They were violent, but at the word of the command they used to obey. That paved the way for Gandhi.
Suren Banerji had a personal magnetism and he was sweet-spoken; he could get round anybody. His idea was to become the undisputed leader of Bengal by using the Nationalists for the sword and the Moderates for the public face. In private he would go up to and accept the revolutionary movement. He even wanted to set up a provincial board of control of the revolutionaries! Barin once took a bomb to him and he was full of enthusiasm. He even had a letter from Suren Banerji, when he was arrested at Maniktolla Garden. But in the court they hushed up the matter as soon as Norton pronounced S. N. Banerji.
Disciple: Aundh State has given a very fine constitution to the people. It has conferred wide powers on the Panchayats. Such constructive work among the villagers would prevent communism. They are thinking of introducing co-operative farming.
Sri Aurobindo: Co-operative farming is an excellent thing; it would develop agriculture. But dictatorship of the proletariat is a different thing. It may have a very fine constitution on paper, but it is quite different in practice. In such a system all men are made to think alike.
Religion is a different affair, it is voluntary; but the country is quite different from the church. You can't choose your country. If you make all people think alike there can't be any human progress. If you were to differ from Stalin you would be liquidated.
These dictators have remarkably few ideas. Take for example Hitler. He believes that the Germans are the best people in the world, Hitler should be the leader, all the Jews are wicked persons, all the people in the world must be Nazis. I do not understand how humanity can progress under such conditions.
Disciple: The tendency of all governments is to increase taxes.
Sri Aurobindo: All governments are robbing, some with legislation, some without. You can well imagine the condition in which you have to give 50% of your income as taxes and have to manage with the rest as best you can.
Disciple: The Customs also charge too heavily.
Sri Aurobindo: It is another form of robbery and yet, in spite of it all, I don't understand how France produces only 250 aeroplanes as compared to a 1000 of Germany! I don't know what these goverments do with the huge sums they get. There is a sufficiently honest administration in England. The public are uneasy about the war.
Disciple: Even some of the princes have been caught smuggling.
Sri Aurobindo: Smuggling there seems almost a virtue, because it is robbing a robber. (Laughter) You must have heard that the Maharajah of Darbhanga had to pay Rs. 50,000 as duty on the necklace of Marie Antoinette which he had bought for one lakh.
Disciple: There is now a movement in C.P. for separating the Marathi-speaking from the Hindi-speaking region. It has weakened the Congress.
Sri Aurobindo: Nagpur was a very good centre of the Nationalists. The two regions should have been separated to begin with.
7 JANUARY 1939
Disciple: Can the ego be removed by the psychic attitude and by the realisation of Self?
Sri Aurobindo: Psychic humility takes away the egoism but not the ego; removing of the ego of the natural individuality is not the work of the psychic. The psychic depends upon and maintains the natural individuality. The psychic is there so that the natural individuality would turn to and progress towards the Divine.
Disciple: How is the ego removed?
Sri Aurobindo: Ego is removed by the realisation of the Spirit, that is, by attaining to the spiritual consciousness Above, which is independent of Nature, which is self-existent. That Spirit is One in all. Realisation of that removes the ego, because then one identifies oneself with the Spirit.
Disciple: What then replaces the 'I' in the divine individual? What is the nature of the psychic individuality?
Sri Aurobindo: In the case of psychic individuality the man may feel the ego of the Sadhu, the Saint, the Bhakta, or the virtuous man. He may also get rid of egoism by imposing on his nature the One Spirit and a feeling of sympathy for all humanity. But that is not the same as getting rid entirely of the ego. The psychic clears the way for the removal of the ego.
Disciple: What happens when one realises the Spirit?
Sri Aurobindo: Generally, when one realises the Spirit, it is the mental sense of the ego that is abolished, but the vital and the physical still retain their egoistic movements. That is what most Yogis mean when they say "It is nature." They mostly allow it to run its course and when the body drops, it also drops; but it is not transformation. That is what Vivekananda meant when he said that human nature cannot be changed; it is like a dogs tail: you can straighten it if you like, but as soon as you leave it, it is curved again.
Disciple: What is really meant by this "nature"?
Sri Aurobindo: It means that the subconscious has in it certain gathered powers which impose themselves on the human being.
Disciple: How to transform or change this human nature?
Sri Aurobindo: In order to change human nature you have to work from level to level. You reject a thing from the mind, it comes to the vital. When you reject it from the vital, then it comes to the physical and then you find it in the subconscient.
There is a central point in the subconscient that has to be changed. If that is done, then everything is done. It is from there that resistance rises from Nature — that is what Vivekananda meant. To effect complete transformation you have to bring down everything to the subconscient, and it is very difficult.
Disciple: How can one replenish the exhausted nervous being? Can it be done by drawing energy from the Universal Vital or by the help of the Higher Power?
Sri Aurobindo: Both ways can be combined. One can draw from the Universal Vital and the Higher Power can also work. But there should be no Tamas, inertia, and other excuses.
Disciple: Was there atime when these things were experienced?
Sri Aurobindo: When we were living in the Library House, we passed through a brilliant period of Sadhana in the Vital. Many people had dazzling experiences and great currents of energy were going round. If we had stopped there — like other Yogas do — we would have given rise to a brilliant creation, or, would have established some kind of religion; but that would not have been the real work.
Disciple: Could a great progress in the conquest of the physical being have been made at that time?
Sri Aurobindo: If the Sadhaks had taken the right attitude, then with the gain in the vital it would have been made in the physical, in spite of difficulties. But that was not done. Then we came down to the physical. Those brilliant experiences disappeared and the slow difficult work of physical transformation remained. There, in the physical, you find the truth of the Vedic Rik— censurers are always ready, telling, "You can't do the thing, you are bound to fail."
Disciple: Would it then mean that the new people who would come to this Yoga would have no experience of the mental and the vital planes?
Sri Aurobindo: They can have, if they hold aloof. Only, they cant help the pressure on the physical nature as it is in the atmosphere.
There are cases that differ: there is someone who made very good progress in the mind. In another case the sadhak became aloof and progressed; but the moment he came to the vital, the whole thing seemed to have stopped.
Disciple: Did he lose the contact with the Brahmic consciousness entirely?
Sri Aurobindo: No, it is only apparently lost. But if he cannot go further, then his yoga stops there, that is all.
Disciple: Can the newcomers make rapid progress?
Sri Aurobindo: Certainly they can. I know cases where they go on very well making good progress.
Disciple: Will the Yoga be more easy for the lucky newcomers?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, in a sense; but the conditions may be more exacting, and the demands made on them may be high. You had an easy time. You were left to do more or less as you liked in your mind, and the vital and other parts. But when the change in the subconscious has to come about, many will find it difficult; there will be some who will progress and others who will not and will drop out. Already some have dropped out, as X did, when the Mother took a decision about his vital being "You will have to change." Before that he was swimming in his art and other things, but as soon as this came he dropped out. All these things — attachments, sex-impulse, etc. — finally find refuge in the subconscient. One has to throw it out from there — destruction of the seed in the subconscient is necessary, otherwise it would sprout again, as we see in the case of some yogis.
Disciple: Can one have these things in him when there is complete union with the Divine?
Sri Aurobindo: What is this "complete union"? For instance, Ramakrishna asked the Divine Mother not to send him Kama and he succeeded, but all cases are not like that. It is quite possible to reject something centrally and totally, but one can't make a general rule about these things.
Our Yoga is like a new path made out in the jungle and there is no previous road in the region. I had myself great difficulties; the suggestion that it was not possible was always there. A vision which the Mother had has sustained me: the vision of a carriage moving towards the highest peak on a steep hill. The highest summit is the transformation of Nature by the attainment of the Higher Consciousness.
Disciple: Is there nothing that can be taken as established uniformly in all the Yogas?
Sri Aurobindo: In this Yoga you have to go on working out again and again the same thing. Thus it becomes a long drawn out struggle, one falls and rises, again falls. Take, for instance, Nirvana, quietude and Samata. I had to go on establishing them again and again till I had done it in the subconscient, and then this accident came. It can be a test.
Disciple: What made the attack possible?
Sri Aurobindo: There were gaps in the physical.
Disciple: Can one take this as a part of the Lila?
Sri Aurobindo: Well, it is the ignorance and the Divine is working out from there. If that was not so, what is the meaning of life?
Everything looked all right and it appeared as if I was going on well with the work, then the accident came. It indicated that it is when the Subconscient is changed that the power of Truth can be embodied; then it can be spread in wave after wave in humanity.
8 JANUARY 1939
Disciple: Can one say that snoring is the protest of the subconscient against somebody's presence? (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: Against whom? Against whose presence when one snores alone! (Laughter)
Disciple: We read in the papers about the conversion of John Middleton Murry to theism. It was Hitler's statement after the purge that he "embodies Justice and Law", that he dispenses with "trials", which made Murry consider him as the Anti-Christ. It seems Gandhian non-violence has also appealed to Hitler. He wants to become a village pastor and stop the flow of villagers to the cities. Gandhi has written about Hitler's regime that the sufferings of Bishop Niemoller are not in vain. He has covered himself with glory. Hitler's heart may be harder than stone, but non-violence has power to generate heat that can melt the stoniest heart. What do you think of that?
Sri Aurobindo: I am afraid, it would require quite a furnace! (Laughter) Gandhi has mainly to deal with Englishmen and the English want to have their conscience at ease. Besides, the Englishman wants to satisfy his self-esteem and wants world-esteem. But if Gandhi had to deal with the Russian Nihilists — not the Bolsheviks — or the German Nazis then they would have long ago put him out of their way.
Disciple: Gandhi is hopeful about the conversion of Hitler's heart or about the German people throwing him over.
Sri Aurobindo: Hitler would not have been where he is if he had a soft heart. It is curious how some of the most sentimental people are most cruel. Hitler, for instance, is quite sentimental. He weeps over his mother's tomb and paints sentimental pictures.
Disciple: It is "the London cabman's psychic", as you said the other day.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. Men like Hitler can't change, they have to be bumped out of existence. There is no chance of their changing in this life. He can't get rid of his cruelty — it is in his blood.
Not that the British can't be brutal and sentimental too. But they can't persist as the Germans and Russians in their brutality. The Englishman may be sentimental, but he likes to show off that he is practical, prosaic and brave. In the Russian, you find a mixture of cruelty and sentimentalism. He can break your neck and the next moment embrace you. The Englishman behaves quite well if you give him blows on his face when he treats you badly.
Disciple: In the Fiji Islands there was the case of a Punjabi from a good family, who went there as an indentured labourer. An Englishman was his supervisor and used to beat him every day, in spite of his doing the hard allotted work. Once he got fed up and caught hold of him, threw him on the ground and went on giving blows. Then the Englishman said, "That will do!" He got up and shook hands with him and the two became great friends! (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: There was the case of Shyamakanta, the tiger-tamer. Once in a railway compartment he was travelling there were a Bengali couple and some Tommies. The soldiers began to pester the Bengali's wife and he was so afraid that he didn't know what to do. Shyamakanta got up, caught hold of the soldiers and began to knock their heads against each other so hard that they were glad to get out at the next station. They did not expect a Bengali to be so strong. Once at Howrah station a Bengali was being bullied by an Englishman. Suddenly he shouted "Bande Mataram" and everyone in the train began to shout and the Englishman took alarm. That was the sudden transformation during the Swadeshi days. Before that our people used to tremble before an Englishman. The position was even reversed.
Before the Swadeshi movement, I wanted to do political work in Bengal and toured the districts of Jessore, Khulna, etc. with Debabrata Bose; we lived simply on plantains. We found the people steeped in pessimism, a black weight of darkness weighed over the country. It is difficult nowadays to imagine those days. Only a few of us stood for independence. Debabrata had a very persuasive way of talking but we had great difficulty in convincing people. At Khulna, we had a right royal reception, not so much because I was a politician, but because I was a son of my father. They served us with seven rows of dishes and I could hardly reach out to them, and even from others I could eat very little.
My father was very popular at Khulna; wherever he went he became all powerful. When he was at Rangpur he was very friendly with the magistrate there. (We went to his cousins place in England afterwards, the Drewetts.) It was always the doctor who got things done at Rangpur. When the new magistrate came he found that nothing could be done without Dr. K. D. Ghose. So he asked the Government to remove him and he was transferred to Khulna. It was since that time that he became a politician. That is to say, he did not like the English domination. Before that everything Western was good! He wanted, for example, all his sons to be great; at that time to join the I.C.S. was to become great. He was extremely generous. Hardly anyone who went to him for help came back empty-handed.
Disciple: Did you see him after coming from England?
Sri Aurobindo: I could not. In a way, I was the cause of his death. He was having heart-trouble and the Grindlays sent a wire to him that I had started by a certain steamer; in fact I had not. That steamer had sunk near Portugal and so when he heard the news he thought that I was drowned and he died of that shock.
Disciple: When you were in England, was he sending you money regularly?
Sri Aurobindo: In the beginning. But afterwards he sent less and less and ultimately he stopped altogether. I had my scholarship at Cambridge but that was not enough to cover the fees and other expenses. So once the tutor wrote to him about money. Then he sent the exact sum for the fees and wrote a letter lecturing me about extravagance! (Laughter)
But it was not true. I and my eldest brother, at any rate, were living quite a Spartan life. My brother worked with Henry Cotton's brother, James Cotton, who was secretary of the South Kensington Liberal Club, and got 5 shillings a week. On that we two managed to live. During a whole year a slice or two of sandwich bread and butter, and a cup of tea in the morning and in the evening a penny saveloy formed the only food. For winter we had no overcoat. To talk of extravagance was absurd. But Manmohan could not stand it, so he went to a boarding house and ate nicely without paying anything.
There was a tailor at Cambridge who used to tempt me with all sorts of clothes for suits and make me buy them; of course, he gave credit. Then I went to London. He somehow traced me there and found Manmohan and canvassed orders from him. Manmohan went in for a velvet suit, not staring red but aesthetic, and used to visit Oscar Wilde in that suit. After we came away to India, the tailor was not to be deprived of his dues! He wrote to the Government of Bengal and to the Baroda State for recovering the sum from me and Manmohan. I had paid up all my dues and kept £ 4/- or so. I did not believe that I was bound to pay it, since he always charged me double. But as the Maharaja said I had better pay it, I paid.
Disciple: Did Manmohan follow your political career?
Sri Aurobindo: He was very proud of our political career. He used to say: "There are two and a half men in India — my brothers Aurobindo and Barin, two, and half is Tilak!" (Laughter)
Disciple: How was Manmohan in England?
Sri Aurobindo: He used to play the poet: he had poetical illness and used to moan out his verses in deep tones. Once we were passing through Cumberland and it was getting dark. We shouted to him but he paid no heed, and came afterwards leisurely at his own pace. His poet-playing dropped after he came to India.
Disciple: How was the eldest brother?
Sri Aurobindo: He was not at all poetic or imaginative. He took after my father. He was very practical but very easy to get on with. But he had fits of miserliness.
The question Barin asked me when he came to Baroda and stayed for sometime was: "How can you stay with Madhav Rao for months and years without quarrelling?"
12 JANUARY 1939
There was a controversy about a girl of about ten or twelve who had an intense aspiration to stay in the Ashram, — to be under Mother's personal protection and guidance. But being under the guardianship of her parents she could not carry out her inner wish. Her parents had taken her away.
Sri Aurobindo: She has developed character and intelligence quite beyond her age. When she wrote to us she sometimes made observations on the world and on people that were even beyond a grown-up woman. She is remarkable for her age. Her parents have found it difficult to bend her to their will. It is true her mother does not love her. It is an accident that she was born in that family: she is quite unlike her parents. Besides, she has found out that her mother used to manage her by lying.
Disciple: They say that the child is quite happy where she is.
Sri Aurobindo: But she wrote to us that she is very unhappy outside!
Disciple: In the papers we find that Stalin has made allegations against Trotsky; can there be any truth in them?
Sri Aurobindo: Not creditable.
Disciple: But the confessions of the generals were dramatic.
Sri Aurobindo: That they made to save their relatives.
Disciple: A Japanese general predicts a hundred-year war to civilize the world!
Sri Aurobindo: The idea is first to drive out the Europeans from Asia, but the Japanese will go about it silently without bragging.
Disciple: Will Indian freedom come a long time after?
Sri Aurobindo: Not necessarily; it will not come by arms but without arms.
Disciple: How?
Sri Aurobindo: There is a prophecy among the Sannyasis, and also Lele used to tell us, that there is no chance of freedom by fighting.
Disciple: Italy or Japan can come to help India.
Sri Aurobindo: That is not so easy. Naval equipment is not enough; without a strong army it is very difficult to conquer India.
Disciple: Congress ministers are trying to introduce military training in U.P., C.P., and Bombay. But Sir Sikandar Hayat in the Punjab is counting on the distinction between martial and non-martial races.
Sri Aurobindo: That was introduced by the British to keep down India by depriving her of military races except the Pathans, Gurkhas, Punjabis, etc. But every part of India had its empire in the past. The whole of India can have military equipment and training in a short time.
Disciple: But what about the Muslims?
Sri Aurobindo: They also want independence. Only they want 'Mohammedan independence'.
Disciple: Spain in Europe seems to be like India. But if Franco gets Spain it would be bad for England.
Sri Aurobindo: It will be worse for France. By spring the intentions of the Axis powers will be known.
Disciple: But why does France depend so much upon England?
Sri Aurobindo: Because she has no other ally.
Disciple: It is the short-sighted policy of the Allies that has given a chance to Hitler.
Sri Aurobindo: No, it is England that got afraid of the French ascendency on the continent and encouraged and pushed Germany into power. She wanted to maintain the balance of power. Hitler aims at France.
France always wanted to placate Italy; but England came in the way with sanctions against Italy. But she could not save Abyssinia and made an enemy of Mussolini.
Disciple: Italy's cry for Tunis was to divert the attention from the Spanish situation.
Sri Aurobindo: b don't think Blum's socialist Government is for intervention in Spain. Socialists in France did nothing when they were in power.
Disciple: Perhaps Russia can render some help.
Sri Aurobindo: Russia is too far and I don't know if it is trustworthy.
Disciple: But the newspapers report that America is preparing armaments.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, perhaps Roosevelt has secret news about the intentions of the Nazis. It is not a question of meddling in European politics, but of being eaten last! (Laughter) There are at least some people in America who understand this thing.
14 JANUARY 1939
Sri Aurobindo opened the topic by referring to a letter from an American.
Sri Aurobindo: There is a job which perhaps X would like to attend to. The letter is addressed to "Aurobindo Ashram" under the belief that it is a person. The man wants predictions on sporting items. He says: "As you are a Yogi you can go into trance and we will share the profits! Let me know your terms. If you don't want to take the money, you can give it to the poor!" (turning to X) You can go into trance or send Y into it. I will be a hard nut.
I have no objection to sharing profits — only, we share the profit not the loss! Besides, we class ourselves among the poor, so we wont have to look for them!
All sorts of half-crazy people are writing to us from everywhere, from Germany, America, etc. I wonder how they manage to get the address.
Disciple: It must be from the magazine in which A wrote an article giving his Ashram address from which this man thought "Aurobindo Ashram" was a man! In that case, A must take up the matter and reply to this man.
Disciple: I am afraid, we won't get anything in spite of the proposal to share profits. In Gujarat there was — I believe even now there is — a group of seekers under the guidance of late Narsimhacharya who got an offer from America promising fabulous returns from small investments. The followers were all taken in, lakhs of rupees were sent and nothing was heard afterwards.
Disciple: On the other hand some Indian Sannyasis are making good business in America. One of them has modernised yoga; his method is a combination of business and yoga, "sets of lectures and courses on meditation" etc.
Sri Aurobindo: R was telling M that if M went to America he would be a great success. I think R was right. Some of these people have the character of a charlatan.
Disciple: But coming to the question: Is it possible to predict sport items and cotton prices and share-fluctuations?
Disciple: I knew an astrologer who impressed my cousin very much, but when he acted under his guidance his predictions did not at all come true.
Sri** Aurobindo:** But I had a remarkable experience at Baroda, not of an astrologer but of one who knew thought-reading, though his predictions as an astrologer were all wrong. The manager of my house, Chhotalal, took me to this man and asked me to have some questions in my mind.
As we entered his room he told me all the four questions that were in my mind; and the curious thing is that three questions were clearly formulated in my mind, but the fourth one had escaped me; but he caught that also. It was remarkable.
Disciple: Is anything being done to get some of your books published in America?
Sri Aurobindo: No. Besides, I don't know if the Americans are interested in profound questions. Swami Nikhilananda, I heard, wrote an article about me which Nishtha [Miss Wilson] says, was profound. The editor of the paper returned it saying, "It won't interest the Americans," and he had to change it and make it what it is.
Disciple: But the Americans are open to new ideas.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. If they would not want sensation and change, the openness to new ideas would be a very great advantage. As it is, all one can say is that there are more people in America interested in these things than in Europe, though in Europe also the number of people who are interested in them is increasing nowadays.
Disciple: One Thompson, a graduate from Oxford, has come to the Ashram. I had some humorous exchange with him. He was very funny.
Sri Aurobindo: It must be he who recently sent me a long letter on philosophy. I don't think he himself was clear about what he wrote. What was your exchange with him like?
Disciple: I was just going out when the sadhak at gate-duty asked me to help him to understand this new arrival. I asked Thompson, "May I know your name, please?" He: "Name! I have no name." "Apart from philosophical considerations about the reality or unreality of it, a name is a necessity in this unphilosophical world," I said. He: "You can call me anything you like — it matters very little to me." I: "It is not a question of my calling you anything. Unfortunately there is the Police Department which will demand a passport with a name, and that matters."
Sri Aurobindo: Then what did he say?
Disciple: Finally he said his name was Thompson. (Laughter)
Disciple: I remember a difficult question: Is it in keeping with Yoga to get oneself insured?
Sri Aurobindo: Thakur Dayananda [of Bengal] would say "No." He was always depending on God and did not believe in storing things. If you don't get anything, it means God wants you to starve. The whole group used to sing and dance, there was an excited expression of their devotion, some kind of vital demonstration. Later on he complained that the disciples were drawing out his vital forces and turned towards Knowledge.
They had the faith that nothing could happen to them. Once when the police came to arrest them they were all singing and dancing. Seeing them in exaltation the police went away. They thought that they were invincible. The Government sent soldiers who arrested them. Then their faith was shaken. One of the prominent disciples, Mahindra Dey, also lost his faith, though he was the victim of his own enthusiasm.
Disciple: How can ones vital forces be drawn out when one is in contact with the Divine?
Sri Aurobindo: The force that supports the work, the vital force, is different from the Divine Consciousness.
Disciple: Do you remember one Kulkarni who came and was complaining that his vital force was being drawn out?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. He was surrounded by forces of disintegration, chaos, disaster and death. And he was unconsciously throwing it out.
Disciple: One of us told you that Kulkarni had strength and intensity. Then you said something remarkable: "You call it strength? It is some wild intensity of weakness, not strength!"
Sri Aurobindo: Intensity with solidity pays; but without support below, it does not lead to anything. B was like that and so was J.
Disciple: But B did brilliant work.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. What he did was brilliant but slight, there was nothing below to support, the intensity had no body so to say. He went because of his ambition, he wanted to be my right-hand man. Mother had put a divine entity into him; it left him when he left the place. He has failed all through.
Disciple: But he was a good lieutenant in the old days.
Sri Aurobindo: There are some people who are good as lieutenants, but themselves they are nothing. B is like that. I supported him but he used to leave one thing and go in for another. He spoiled his career through his own fault.
Disciple: Some people say that now he speaks unfavourably about the Ashram.
Sri Aurobindo: We know that. To M who was coming here he said about me: "He has caught you by his philosophy."
But the Mother knows these things even without any reports from outside.
Disciple: Our friend D who has the eternal doubter in him met Upen Banerjee at Calcutta and asked him whether he believed in God.
Sri Aurobindo: What did Upen say?
Disciple: He said: "How can I say I don't believe in God when I know Sri Aurobindo? I have a measuring rod for men and I can measure them all right; but in Sri Aurobindo's case I cannot measure him. In case of other great people they reach a certain point in their growth and then they stop, whereas in his case he is always going on further and further."
Sri Aurobindo (smiling) : I see. Upen also had intensity; he had agnosticism and faith. It is that which makes his writing brilliant. But he could never understand the Arya. Why, Rishikesh [Kanjilal] also was one in whom doubt could never get the better of faith and faith could not of doubt! (Laughter) He always wanted to fix himself to some anchor, — he could not give up seeking, nor pursue steadily and find an anchor. "The movement will not grow," he used to say. (After a pause) The revolutionaries were quite an interesting lot though not fit for yoga, and one could not feel dull in their company.
Disciple: K was enthusiastic about Sadhana.
Sri Aurobindo: He was. But he was not able to stand the trial of Yoga. I dont think he had the capacity to do the Yoga; he had too tall an idea about himself, and he was crude. And as to Kh I wonder how he could ever have done the Yoga.
16 JANUARY 1939
Disciple: I read a paper written by Prof. Somesh Bose, a mathematician, in which he mentions that Bholagiri, a Sadhu, had meditation with his wife who was dead. Bose says that he saw them both — his dead wife was present "in flesh and blood". The question is: Is it possible? Also, whether Bholagiri materialised his wife or she did it herself? Somesh says, she was present every day at the prayer time. Can she remain like that in her materialised body almost all the time? Does she live with Bholagiri all the time, or does she come and go? What will materialists say?
Disciple: They will say, it is all humbug. (Turning to Sri Aurobindo) But what does Yoga say?
Sri Aurobindo:"Many possibilities." This seems to be a case of temporary materialising, as Bholagiri is present every time. I believe, there is always a difference between a material body and a materialised body. This kind of materialising commonly takes place immediately after a man dies. You find that he visits either a relation or a friend. If the fact of his death is not known or if the man is not known to be living far away, people mistake it for an actual physical presence.
There are many authentic cases of this kind. My poetic brother Manmohan's friend, Stephen Philips said that his mother visited him after her death. Manmohan told me the story, ascribing the experience to telepathic communication of the form. But I think it is not mere communication of form or cast by the mind only. There is the vital-physical part which materialises.
Disciple: You have already cited the other day the case of Lord Strathmore. But is it possible to materialise completely?
Sri Aurobindo: Theoretically it should be possible, though Ihave known no case of the same. After the experience we had of the stone-throwing in the Guest House here, Ibelieve if the stones could be materialised, why not a human being?
Disciple: The Egyptians preserved the human body after death, with a belief that the soul would return to it after some years. Paul Brunton claims to have met some spirit hoary with age on the hill near the pyramids.
Sri Aurobindo: The Egyptians believed that at the time of death the Ka, the vital being, went out of the man and after a thousand years, if the body was preserved, it would return to it. Brunton, I suppose, materialised the belief.
Disciple: Is it possible to revitalise the dead?
Sri Aurobindo: I can't say.
Disciple: There is a reported case of a Bey whom Brunton met and who revived a sparrow after it was dead. Brunton says that he saw the same phenomenon performed by Vishuddhananda. Is it possible?
Sri Aurobindo: That is possible. Just as you can revive a drowned man by resorting to physical devices, life can be restored. If you know how to reintroduce the power that sets the organism to action, after the body is wounded or dead, you can revive the man.
The real question is whether it is the being of the man that comes back to life, or it is some other spirit that wants to manifest and gets hold of the body. Both are possible, because revival is done in two ways: One is to bring back the spirit of the man which is still not far away, the other is to get some other spirit that consents to come.
Disciple: Can the vital being be called back into the body?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, if it has not gone away very far, it can be pulled back into the body.
There was a humorous sequel to a telegram requesting "ashes".
Disciple: I don't understand why he is asking for ashes.
Sri Aurobindo: I don't understand how I am supposed to be carrying ashes — perhaps on my head! When I used to smoke I could have sent at least the cigar ashes. But now Idon't smoke!
Disciple: But we are burning mosquito coils here. The ashes of the coils can be sent! (Laughter)
Disciple: But I think he is asking for blessings. The post office in receiving the Sanskrit word āshis has turned it into "ashes". (Laughter)
Disciple: There is also X's recent telegram.
Disciple: Yes, it read "Nirodashram" instead of Nirodbaran.
Disciple: When is X coming?
Disciple: He is coming after organising his property.
Sri Aurobindo: Is he still "organising"?
Disciple: Has he much property left?
Disciple: I am afraid he has lost everything.
Sri Aurobindo: He is a phenomenon!
Do you remember the name of the man who apologised to us? I wonder whether he offered the apology because his public attack did not succeed.
Disciple: Yes. He seemed to have gathered all sorts of false facts from all kinds of people.
Disciple: Did you read his book?
Sri Aurobindo: I simply glanced at it! I don't think he sold more than half a dozen copies.
(After a pause) It seems M has expressed sorrow for what she did here and explained that she acted under the influence of S and B.
Disciple: In the attack by R there were no real allegations. His objection and that of many others is that the Ashram is not doing what he calls public work.
Sri Aurobindo: What work?
Disciple: Say the country's work, work for humanity.
Sri Aurobindo: It is quite a new objection. Nobody expects an Ashram, a spiritual institution, to do work!
Disciple: The Ramakrishna Mission, Gandhi's Ashram, and some other institutions do some public work and so people expect an Ashram to work for humanity.
Sri Aurobindo: Perhaps because I did political work they expect that I should continue doing it all my life.
Disciple: Not only that, the objection is that so many young men are being drawn away from the field of work.
Sri Aurobindo: Oh, I see.
Disciple: But Gandhi's Ashram is not a spiritual institution. It is a group of people gathered to be trained to do some work on the Mahatma's principles and methods. One can say that service to the public is one of their aims.
Disciple: Subhas also wrote against the Ashram recently on the ground that it was attracting away some of the best people from the country's work. He quoted the example of D.
Sri Aurobindo: Is D one of his 'best' people?
Disciple: I don't remember if he wrote best or good, for those who came here.
Sri Aurobindo: But D was not doing political work. He was doing music!
Disciple: Subhas's idea was that D may not do political work now. But when the time comes he must be prepared to give up everything and join the struggle.
Sri Aurobindo: I see. One can't give up everything for God!
Disciple: But suppose one gives up everything for the country's freedom, then what is he to do afterwards, except perhaps go to jail.
Sri Aurobindo: D in jail! Perhaps he would write some stories about his agony.
Disciple: That, perhaps, would be a gain to literature, not to politics.
Sri Aurobindo: At the time of the Gandhi movement someone asked Abanindranath Tagore, why he was not giving up his painting for the sake of the country and taking to politics. He said: "I serve the country through my painting in which I have some capacity — that, at least, is something I know; whereas I would be only a bad politician."
Disciple: Tagore narrowly escaped the Charkha. But it seems Nandalal Bose is turning towards it.
Sri Aurobindo: He is a man of ascetic temperament. There was an enthusiast who even wrote an article showing that the Chakra referred to in the Gita was the Charkha!
Disciple: It was Vinoba Bhave, a disciple of the Mahatma.
The topic changed to Baroda. Dr. M mentioned that now the Race Course Road is crowded with fine buildings constructed by Co-operative Societies, and Dr. Bhulabhai was living in one of them.
Sri Aurobindo: Bhulabhai is still alive?
Disciple: Yes. He is nearly eighty-five.
Sri Aurobindo (after a pause) : The mention of Baroda brought to my mind my connection with the Gaekwad. It is strange how things arrange themselves at times. When I failed in the I.C.S. riding test and was looking for a job, exactly at that time the Gaekwad happened to be in London. I don't remember whether he called us or we met him. An elderly gentleman whom we consulted wanted us to propose Rs. 200 per month. It was just a little more than 10 pounds, and it is surprising that he thought it was very good! But I left the negotiations to my eldest brother and James Cotton. I knew nothing about life at that time. And the Gaekwad went about telling people that he had got a civilian for just 200 rupees. (Laughter)
Disciple: What were your expenses in those days?
Sri Aurobindo: Before the war, it was quite decent living for £5/-. Our landlady was an angel. She came from Somerset and had settled in London — perhaps after she was widowed. She was long suffering and never asked us for money even if we did not pay for months and months. (We had two landladies — the other one also was very nice to us.) I wonder how she managed. I paid her from my I.C.S. stipend.
It was Father's fault that I failed in the riding test. He did not send money and the riding lessons at Cambridge then were rather costly. The master was also careless; so long as he got his money he simply left me with the horse and I was not particular. I tried riding again at Baroda with Madhav Rao but it was not successful. My failure was a great disappointment to my father because he had arranged everything for me through Sir Henry Cotton. A post was kept for me in the district of Arrah which was considered a fine place. All that came down like a wall.
(After a pause) I wonder what would have happened to me if I had joined the civil service. I think, they would have chucked me for laziness and arrears of work! (Laughter)
The talk changed to Gandhiji's demilitarisation.
Disciple: While presiding over a conference of youths Nana Saheb has spoken against non-violence. He advocates military training for all young men for India's defence. Did you know Nana Saheb Shinde?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, I knew him very well. He, Madhav Rao and I had all revolutionary ideas. At that time we wanted to bring about an armed rebellion to drive out the British.
It is good that someone raises a voice like that when efforts are being made to make non-violence a method of solving all problems.
But has Gandhi succeeded in disarming the frontier Pathans?
Disciple: It seems he objected strongly to armed volunteers keeping watch over him while he was in the Frontier Province.
Sri Aurobindo: And what should they do in case there was an attack? Stand around simply?
Disciple: No. They have to die resisting!
Sri Aurobindo: This non-violent resistance Ihave never been able to fathom. Ican understand an attitude of absolute non-resistance to Evil; as the Christians say, "Resist not the Evil." You may die without resisting and accept the consequences as sent by God. But to resist passively seems to me meaningless. And to change the opponents heart by such passive resistance is something Idon't understand.
Disciple: And the Modern Review put in another objection which is worth considering. The article accepts that non-violence may be a good gospel for a great saint but for the ordinary man to allow evil to triumph so easily, by passive resistance, would not be good for the society. There is no reason to hope that the goonda will change his mind, or heart, if you allow him to kill you.
Sri Aurobindo: Exactly, and Gandhi has been trying to apply it to other fields whereas its extreme application is meant for spiritual life. Non-violence or Ahimsa as a spiritual attitude and practice is perfectly understandable and has a standing. You may not accept it in toto but it has a basis in Reality. You can live it in spiritual life but to try to apply it to ordinary life is absurd. You ignore, as the Europeans do, the great principle of Adhikara, qualification. Also it makes no provision for the difference in situations.
Disciple: The Mahatma's point is that in either case, whether with or without arms, you are prepared to die, so why not try now without arms? Since armaments are piling up and there is no end to where it will all lead, you are only perpetuating killing.
Sri Aurobindo: But then why not die fighting? Of course, if it is a question of expense then the reasons for non-violence, we must admit, are economic and not ethical.
(After a pause) It is a principle which can be applied with success if practised on a mass scale, specially by unarmed people like the Indians, because you are left: with no other choice. But even when it succeeds it is not that you have changed the heart of the enemy, but that you have made it impossible for him to rule. That is what happened in Ireland. There was in Ireland armed resistance also but that would not have succeeded without the passive resistance side by side. Such tremendous generalisations like "Passive resistance for all," "Charkha for all," "Celibacy for all" hardly work.
17 JANUARY 1939
Photographs of Pagal Hamath and Kusum Devi were shown to Sri Aurobindo. A declaration from Matushri Kusum that she was the Supreme Power and that Harnath was one of her forces, was written under one of the photographs.
Sri Aurobindo: That is the Tantric doctrine.
Disciple: But Harnath was a Vaishnava.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but the doctrine she has proclaimed is not a Vaishnava doctrine, it is Tantric.
Disciple: Is it true?
Sri Aurobindo: In principle it is true; for the Supreme Shakti is the Divine Force and all the Gods are from Her. It is said that even Shiva cannot act unless She gives him power to act.
Disciple: Harnath had his decisive spiritual experience in Kashmir where, it is related, Gauranga came to him and gave him his 'mission'. But his later disciples regard him as equal to Gauranga.
Disciple: But where is the difficulty? If the Consciousness is ultimately and essentially Divine, why should not Gauranga and Hamath be one in consciousness?
Disciple: They want to prove him to be as great an Avatar as Chaitanya.
Sri Aurobindo: Oh, there is competition between two Avatars? Did Harnath proclaim himself an Avatar?
Disciple: No, but he behaved like one. There are cases of very rapid conversions of people who have met him.
Sri Aurobindo: I have found that Vaishnava Bhakti makes for very strong and rapid progress.
Disciple: There is a line of Sadhus in Gujarat, who worship the Impersonal God.
Sri Aurobindo: Worship of the Impersonal God?
Disciple: They do not have any personal God, but they worship the One who is everywhere, beyond 'personality'. Kabir and some other saints also believed in this. Even when they take a particular Name of God, they mean by it something more than that Name. They will say "Rama" but they believe in various aspects of Rama.
Ek Rāma Dasaratha ghara jāyo; ek Rāma, ghat ghat me bole
Ek Rāmakā submen pasārā; ek Rāma saban te nyārā
Disciple: Does Nyara mean the Transcendent?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, the Absolute, the Supreme.
Disciple: The couplet says: one Rama is born in Dasharatha's house and is therefore subject to change, perhaps Kshara. One Rama is present in every heart, and one is all-pervading and therefore universal, and one Rama is beyond all.
Sri Aurobindo: That seems to be the same thing as the Gita's idea of Vasudeva that is in all and Vasudeva that is the Supreme Absolute: both are the same. Worship of the Impersonal Divine may not be as powerful for change — it tends to be more etherealised and the knowledge that enters into it makes devotion less intense or rapid.
Disciple: We have heard that you received guidance from SriKrishna in your Sadhana: was it from Sri Krishna of Brindavan or of Kurukshetra?
Sri** Aurobindo:** I should think it was of Kurukshetra.
Disciple: These distinctions between various personalities of Krishna, one of Brindavana and others are of later growth in Vaishnavism.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. They regard Bala Gopal as the Delight aspect or the Delight-Consciousness; but there are older schools of Vaishnavism that regarded Krishna as an Avatar of Vishnu.
Disciple: Krishna of Kurukshetra is, I suppose, the one who gave the Gita.
Sri Aurobindo: The one who spoke the Gita is the Vishnu aspect.
Disciple: Arjuna could not bear his sight and had to ask him to resume his human form.
Sri Aurobindo: In the Vishnu Purāna all the aspects of Vishnu are nicely described. It is one of the Puranas I have read through carefully. I wonder how it has escaped general notice because it is magnificent poetry.
There is a humorous passage in it, where a disciple asks the Guru whether the king is on the elephant or the elephant on the king. (Laughter)
Disciple: The king must be Ramamurthy if the elephant was to be on him.
Sri Aurobindo: Then the Guru jumps on the shoulders of the disciple and asks him whether he is on the disciples back or the disciple on his back. (Laughter)
There is also a very fine description of Jada Bharata.
Disciple: Is it true? Did Jada Bharata exist?
Sri** Aurobindo:** I don't know. But it sounds very real in the Purana, where it is placed.
It is also the most anti-Buddhist Purana.
Disciple: Then it must have been written late.
Disciple: Buddha was born around 500 B.C.
Sri Aurobindo: It is not so early as that; all the Puranas are posterior to Buddhism. They are a part of the Brahminical revival which came as a reaction against Buddhism in the Gupta period.
Disciple: The Puranas, even the earliest, are supposed to have been written about the 3rd or the 4th century A.D.
Sri Aurobindo: Most probably. In the Vishnu Purāna, Buddha is regarded an Avatar of Vishnu who came to deceive the Asuras. He is not referred to by that name but is called Mayamoha. The reference to Buddha is very clear; it repeats, "Budhyaswa! Budhyaswa!" It is a fine work.
Disciple: It is said that the Tantras are derived from the Vedas.
Disciple: There is nothing in the Veda to justify their claim except one solitary Sukta called the Ambhrani Sukta. It is a Valkhilya. There Ambhrani speaks of herself as the creatrix of the Gods. Of course one can take Aditi, the infinite Divine Consciousness, as the root of the Tantra if one likes.
Sri Aurobindo: The principle of Tantra may be as old as the Veda but the known Tantras are a later development.
Disciple: The Vedas are considered the highest authority in India, so everything wants to peg itself on to the Vedas — not only Tantra, but art, dancing, etc.
Sri Aurobindo: I don't understand this passion for antiquity. What does it matter when a thing took place? Truth is Truth whenever it may be found.
Disciple: But the Vedas are considered eternal.
Sri Aurobindo: They are eternal because the source of their inspiration is eternal.
Disciple: Someone has said that the eternal Veda is in everybody's heart.
Disciple: It is Sri Aurobindo who has said that in his Synthesis of Yoga. You are quoting him to himself! (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: The Upanishads came after the Vedas and they put in plainer language the same Truth that was in them. In the Vedas the language is symbolic.
But the Upanishads are equally great. Even in the Veda there are passages which clearly show that the Vedantic Truth is contained in the Veda. But it is surprising that the readers of the Veda miss those passages. For instance, the Veda says ritena ritam apihitam — "Truth is hidden by the Truth", and then "It is that One", that is the source. It is clear that it refers to the Vedantic Truth of the One. Similarly, the Upanishads speak of the Vedic symbols. The Ishopanishad speaks of the Vedic Gods Surya and Agni, but you can see that the significance there is symbolic.
Veda, Upanishad, Gita all are equally great.
Disciple: The Europeans thought that it was not possible to believe that the Vedic Rishis were so advanced — specially in those primitive times.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they were so satisfied when they found the historical interpretation that they did not care for many obvious indications. But you must admit that the interpretation turning the Vedic Gods to gases is magnificently ingenious.
Disciple: Was it not Paramashiva Aiyar, a Mysorian, who showed that remarkable ingenuity?
Sri** Aurobindo:** I think that is the man.
Disciple: He is trying to prove in his book on the Veda that the Veda shows the condition of earth in the glacial period and then indicates its geological evolution. I gave him up when I came upon his explanation of parame vyōman as meaning the "trough" and "crest" of ocean waves.
Many Riks of Dirghatamas are untranslated even today in spite of all ingenious theories and interpretations.
Sri Aurobindo: You can't understand or translate them unless you have the key to the symbolism.
19 JANUARY 1939
Dr. R's visit: In the course of his talk he remarked, in connection with the swelling of Sri Aurobindo's knee-joint, that all disease or illness is of the nature of inflammation. After he departed, Sri Aurobindo asked N: "In what sense is all illness an inflammation?" N explained as well as he could.
Then yesterday's topic of Aldous Huxley's book Ends and Means was taken up by a disciple.
Disciple: Huxley suggests two ways of solving the problems of man. One, by changing the existing institutions of education, industries, in fact by modifying social, political, economic and religious institutions. This would bring about a change in the individual. So far as industries are concerned he suggests the creation of small units federated to a central organisation. Thus it would eliminate large units which are the roots of all troubles. The second remedy he suggests is to change the individual and make him, what he calls "non-attached", one who would practise virtue with disinterestedness. I believe there is a French author who also advocates such new types of industrial institutions.
Sri Aurobindo: That was also my idea when I proposed to Motilal to have a spiritual commune. I did not call it a commune but a Sangha — a community based on spirituality and living its own economic life; it would have its own industries and agriculture. And a network of such communities spread all over the country would exchange their products among themselves.
Disciple: You gave him the idea of the paper also?
Sri Aurobindo: I don't remember. But I asked him to start hand-looms and weaving.
Disciple: He has tried to take up the Gandhian plan after he separated from us; we used to insist on Swadeshi, now they call it Khaddar.
Disciple: The financial condition there does not seem as sound as it is made to appear.
Sri Aurobindo: Possibly. Ido not know what they are doing now. I heard that some plots were bought in the Sunderbans to start agriculture. But as people were getting malaria, it had to be given up.
Disciple: Is it something like Dayalbagh? I don't know what spirituality they are having there. It seems as if all their energies are directed to external work and industries.
Sri Aurobindo: That may be due to their large-scale production. I heard that Anukul Thakur also has started work on the same idea.
Disciple: Does he not belong to Dayalbagh?
Sri Aurobindo: No. He may belong to what they call the Radhaswami School. But I don't think he belongs to Dayalbagh.
Disciple: But to start such a Sangha one must have spiritual realisation and it may take a long time to start.
Sri Aurobindo: Not necessarily. Obviously if one is to wait for spiritual realisation it will take time. But all may not have the highest or supramental realisation. Spiritual experience is enough for the people and that is not difficult to have. I told M that spirituality must be the basis of the Sangha. Otherwise, your success will be your failure. But he does not seem to have listened to it.
(After a pause) There were other religious communes of this sort before. The Dukhobor commune in Russia was very powerful and well organised, strong in its faith. They held together in spite of all persecution. At last they had to emigrate to Canada. One of their tenets was nudism, which the Canadian Government did not like and they got into trouble.
Disciple: They had at least solved the weaving problem. (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: Then there were the Mormons who became famous in the United States. The name of their founder was Joseph Smith — a prosaic name for a prophet! But Brigham Young was a very remarkable man, who really built this commune. Curiously enough one of their tenets was polygamy. Their religion was based on the Old Testament. When they were made to give up polygamy they became quite like ordinary men. Mark Twain said that when the chief was interrogated in the presence of his members he replied that he knew his children by numbers, not by their names!
There was another commune in America which did not allow marriage among its members.
Disciple: Do you know of any such commune in India?
Sri Aurobindo: The Sikhs are the only community organised on a religious basis. Thakur Dayananda established, or tried to establish, an order of married Sannyasins.
Disciple: I heard that Anukul Thakur also adopted it for his disciples.
Sri Aurobindo: Disciples are another matter — they are allowed to marry.
Disciple: I think he permitted the Sannyasins to marry.
Sri Aurobindo: The same principle is accepted by Vaishnavas who follow the Nityananda school — they accept a Vaishnavi.
Disciple: All sorts of attempts at collective life seem to have been made and when one sees them all, one is driven to despair like the bald man — who was trying all kinds of remedies to cure baldness — who, on looking at King Edward VII's photo with his shining bald head, said, "I give it up!" (Laughter)
Have you any idea how the Supermind will proceed?
Sri Aurobindo: No idea. If you have an idea the result will be what has been in the past. We must leave the Supermind to work everything out.
Disciple: But that sort ofwork has to be based onlove. One must have love for everyone.
Sri Aurobindo: Love is not enough. Something more than love is necessary. Unity of consciousness is more important than love.
Disciple: The trouble is, as soon as one begins something one tends to become ego-centric, and quarrels start — like the aggravation of a symptom in homeopathy. (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: But love also leads to quarrels. Nobody quarrels more than the lovers do! (Laughter)
(Looking at X) You know the Latin proverb that each quarrel is a renewal of love?
Love is a fine flower, but unity of consciousness is the root.
The difficulty is that when those who are here receive something of the Higher Power and gather it in the vital and turn it to their lower nature, they become ego-centric, they think it is their own power. When H came here from Chandernagore he said, "There everybody is a sheep following the shepherd but here everybody is a Royal Bengal Tiger." (Laughter)
Disciple: Somebody also said that here it is a zoo where each one is a lion roaring in his own den.
Sri Aurobindo: When we were very few and the Ashram had not grown, B and S used to convert all sorts of people to spirituality; they were great propagandists. B once caught hold of a young Tamilian who was quite sheepish. B used to meet him. After three or four months of contact it was found that the young man had become quarrelsome, violent and insolent — a great transformation had come over him! (Laughter) It was S who made D a public leader. At any rate, the one thing he did was to make D get rid of all scruples: "Right and wrong don't matter, good and evil are nothing," he used to tell.
Disciple: And now D is trying to live up to it.
Sri Aurobindo: D used to say to Dr. Le Mongnac, "It is impossible for me to fail because I am a Godman." He said to many people here that he is not afraid because he is Sri Aurobindo's disciple. He got his power from the Mother and all agree that he is the one man who can do something if he wants to.
Mrs. R wrote to us, "What has N come to at Pondicherry? He is writing to us 'do this' and 'do that', and finds fault with our work." Of course, they were quarrelling in Japan also when they were there. They held to their different views about their work.
B came straight from A. A was another great propagandist. He caught anyone he could and made him do the Yoga — of course, it was his yoga. He did not think that any such thing as Adhikara was necessary.
Disciple: We had a hard tussle with Mahatmaji's followers over the question of transcending morality and immorality in a man of spiritual realisation and the resultant conduct. They always think that going beyond morality means sinking to immorality. All that does not conform to their moral code is immoral!
Sri Aurobindo: Of course, all can't go beyond morality. So their theory is true in their own field. It is a mental rule and so long as one cannot come in contact with the dynamic Divine source of action in himself, one has to be guided by some law of conduct — otherwise one might take up the attitude: "There is no virtue and no sin, so let us sin merrily."
What Krishna says in the Gita: sarvadharmān parityajya — abandoning all laws of conduct, is said at the end of the Gita and not in the beginning. And then that is not alone; there is also māmekam sharanam vraja — take refuge in Me alone. But before one finds within oneself the guidance of the dynamic Divine, one has to have some rule to guide himself. Most people have to pass through the Sattwic stage and the moral rule is true so far as these people are concerned. It is only a very few that can start above it.
Disciple: Can one say that the psychic being always wants transformation? There are people who believe that the psychic being in evolution would and must want transformation and only the Atman can merge into Laya, in the Divine. Can the developed psychic being not merge into Laya?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it can. It depends on whether it is in front or not. If it is in front then, as I said, it takes charge of the nature and then its aspiration will be for transformation. But the developed psychic being can take any other spiritual direction. It depends on what direction the Divine within chooses. We cannot dictate to the soul what it shall choose; all are not compelled towards transformation.
Disciple: What is the kind of transformation that takes place?
Sri Aurobindo: The psychic transformation is the first one. Many yogis achieve this transformation. All saints have psychic transformation: it is the pure Bhakta-nature. But all spiritual men are not saints. Of course, both can go together sometimes.
Disciple: Is there a distinction between saints and spiritual persons?
Sri Aurobindo: Of course there is. Saints are limited by their psychic nature, but spiritual men are not. The saint, generally, proceeds from and lives in the heart-centre. The spiritual man might live in other higher centres — say, above the head, in the spiritual consciousness.
Disciple: It is not quite clear to me, the distinction.
Sri Aurobindo: The saint lives in the psychic being, that is, in the Purusha in the heart, but the spiritual man may live above the head, in the spiritual consciousness. I never felt like a saint myself — though Maurice Magre calls me "a philosopher and a saint". Krishna, for instance, was not a saint. A spiritual man may not always behave like a saint, he may have many other things in him, say like Rishi Durvasa.
Disciple: But saints are nearer to humanity; they are not like the Ishwara-Koti to whom no laws apply, for they are on the top of the human ladder.
Disciple: In this Yoga, it seems, one has to fight like Arjuna, in the battle of Kurukshetra, because it is a Yoga of fight and battle and conquest.
Sri Aurobindo: Not necessarily; it depends on the nature of the being. There are some people, for instance, who when they meet the hostile forces in the vital or in dream begin to fight, while there are others who call for protection. If one has the psychic attitude one need not fight. Fighting is for the mental or the vital man; in the case of the mental type the fight is with ideas.
Disciple: Some people regard quarrelling with the Divine as the psychic way.
Sri Aurobindo: In that case, many people are psychic in this Ashram!
Disciple: I remember Y's letter referring to Ramprasad's song claiming that the Divine must satisfy his demand because he had sacrificed everything for the Divine.
Sri Aurobindo: Claim based on what? His argument seems to be: "You must give me the thing because I badly want it."
Disciple: What did you reply to him?
Sri Aurobindo: It was not addressed to me. It was addressed to Krishna.
Disciple: Then, I will ask him to write to you now.
Sri Aurobindo: No, don't do that. (Laughter) Otherwise, Iwill have to be as hard as Krishna.
Disciple: They say that Shiva is a very kind and generous God.
Sri** Aurobindo:** I don't know. He is very kind to the demons also. He gives them very inconvenient boons and finds it difficult to wriggle out afterwards. He is a God who does not care for consequences. Generally Vishnu or somebody else has to come in to save the situation.
Disciple: Krishna is hard to please, they say.
Disciple: Talking of Krishna reminds me of Yogi Z, whose sadhana seemed to be going on very well but, they say, he is now attracted to Buddhism.
Sri Aurobindo: Good Lord!
Disciple: I do not know if he has been attracted to a woman, but there was some such report.
Sri Aurobindo: It is sad if it is true. In one of his letters to Y he wrote that one need not be a eunuch in order to be a master of sex.
Realisation is something very precious and one should guard it and live in it like in a fortress. One can go on adding whatever knowledge one wants or gets but always guarding ones realisation. For instance, it is not at all necessary to give up Bhakti to get Jnana.
I found it difficult to go through his commentary on the Gita. It is more intellectual, it lacks the life and the heart. Otherwise, it was always a pleasure to read his writings. He seems to have lost the intensity of mental vision, the seeing mind which he had, but I thought that it was due to his turning towards Knowledge.
His attraction towards Buddhism is understandable, because to the European rational mind its rationalism has an appeal. It was through Buddhism that Europe came to and began to know India. Blavatsky founded her Theosophy on Buddhism. Next they understood Shankara in Europe and for many years the Europeans thought there was nothing in India except Shankaras Adwaita. But if Z has taken to Buddhism, his sex attraction is not justifiable. Buddhism is the most exacting path. It is most unindulgent, severe and dry; it is a path of Tapasya.
Disciple: He had perhaps a great mental pride.
Disciple: He said to Y that sex was not a problem for him.
Sri Aurobindo: That is vital over-confidence. Perhaps in the course of Sadhana some opening has taken place in the vital.
Disciple: But can a Sadhak fall like that after such fine realisations as he had?
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean by realisations? There is always the possibility of being Yoga-Bhrashta [fallen from yoga].
20 JANUARY 1939
After a discussion of local affairs about which there were conflicting news.
Sri Aurobindo: Ifind Z's letter to Y is written with his usual clear vision. He advises Y to guard against mixing up his own feeling of personal wrong with the legitimate decision not to shake hands with one who has wronged the Guru. Then he says, "These people like M, when they take to Yoga it is more ornamental than anything else." It is a fine phrase "ornamental Yoga".
Disciple: About Z becoming a Buddhist, Y said it is only that Z does not want to belong to any particular sect.
Sri Aurobindo: That is understandable.
Disciple: Nothing seems to have come out of the Chamberlain-Mussolini interview. Both parties say they are satisfied with the results.
Sri Aurobindo: I can't understand England's policy. I don't know what she is after. France is being led by England, — being stuck to her like a tail. It is said that Mussolini is waiting for General Franco's victory in Spain, then he will present his terms to France. Franco's victory will be dangerous for France. But it is very difficult to see how England profits by this. For as soon as Italy and Germany have crushed France, the next victim will be England. England knows very well Mussolini's ambition to create an Italian empire, and that means he will try to regain all that once belonged to Italy. England is deliberately raising Hitler and Mussolini against France and letting her down. I do not know why unless the three want to share the empire of France, and then England may try to put Hitler and Mussolini against each other. That may be her traditional self-centred policy, but it is a very risky game.
Disciple: But is it possible? Can England remain aloof when France fights with the other powers?
Sri Aurobindo: Why not? Chamberlain has said that as long as England's interests are not involved she is not obliged to fight. England will say that Italy's demands have not been satisfied and so she has gone to war and Germany has joined her. There was no aggression on Italy's part, and so England is not obliged to come to the aid of France; any number of excuses could be given. Daladier told a friend (who is also a friend of our Suryakumari) that he had to betray Czechoslovakia because Chamberlain told him that England will support him as far as it is diplomatically possible, but in case of war France should not count on England.
Disciple: I wonder why Flandin wants to support Franco when Blum is against him. You know Flandin even sent a telegram to Mussolini conveying his congratulations! Hitler counts Flandin as a friend — does he intend to join the Rome-Berlin axis and thus keep out England?
Sri Aurobindo: How is that possible unless France satisfies Italy's demands? After the Spanish question is settled, Italy is almost sure to claim Tunis, Nice, Djibouti. Is Flandin prepared to give them? Italy wants her empire in Africa. So, Tunis and Djibouti are essential for her to be the master in the Mediterranean. Blum is incapable; it was he who applied non-intervention in the Spanish question.
At present it seems two people are brandishing their arms against everybody and the rest are somehow trying to save themselves. The one man who has seen through the whole thing is Roosevelt, but he is too far and he is not sure of the support of the American people.
Disciple: What about Russia?
Sri Aurobindo: Russia is unreliable. One does not know its military strength. At one time she was supposed to have the biggest air-force. But according to Lindberg it does not seem to be so. The internal state of Germany also is not known. They are trying to conceal everything as far as possible.
Disciple: Jawaharlal says that Hitler and his generals did not expect the non-resistance which they met from Austria. They were all very much surprised.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, the generals were opposed to Hitler's plan, for they were not prepared to fight. Now Hitler will say: "Have you seen that I am right? Things have happened as I told you."
Disciple: Jawaharlal said that the threatened attack against Czechoslovakia was mainly bluff. All the tanks and machine guns were only a sham.
Sri Aurobindo: It can't be reliable news; the Germans are too disciplined for that.
Disciple: There is some trouble in Holland. Germany is threatening to cut off all trade with her and establish a trade-route through Antwerp instead of Amsterdam.
Sri Aurobindo: If that takes place it will make Chamberlain fight in spite of himself. England does not want any German navy in the North Sea. But Germany wont do that unless she wants war with England.
( A disciple spoke of the canal scheme of Russia to enable to connect herself with Asia and the Arctic Sea. Then the topic of Lady B., an American visiting the Ashram in the company of Nishtha (Miss Wilson), came up.)
Sri Aurobindo: Lady B has visited India twice. The first time she went to Ramana Maharshi but was not satisfied with the place. She said there was no peace there.
Disciple: Was Mrs. Macleod impressed?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, she was very impressed. It was she who sent this lady. B has married a Lord in England; from his title the Lord does not seem to be a descendant of an old family. Has she come in her saloon-car?
Disciple: Yes. She goes about in that car everywhere.
Disciple: She must be very rich then.
Sri Aurobindo: An American married to a Lord means she has money. They marry for a title. But do you know why some people are dissatisfied with the Ramanashrama?
Disciple: They say it is not an organised Ashram. People build huts at their own cost; they are allowed meals only for three days by the general management; they are not obliged to live together for twenty-four hours as we do here; but there are, it seems, quarrels!
Sri Aurobindo: The 'harmony' comes out in that short time?
Disciple: People from outside witness similar quarrels here also. Monsieur H had the opportunity to see A's scuffle, I think.
Sri Aurobindo: Then he saw A in all his glory!
Disciple: I remember a joke from yesterday's talk about Bengal tigers. Someone said, "Everyone here is like a lion in his own den." Another put it more interestingly, "Everyone here is a general, there are no soldiers!" (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: And generalesses? (Louder laughter)
Disciple: In the days when X used to work here [with Mother] a newcomer asked him, "Who are the advanced sadhaks here?" He said, "I don't know." Then, after he was repeatedly pressed, he said, "I will tell you, but you must not tell anybody else. There are only two advanced sadhaks here — you and I." (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: This instance of "we two" reminds me of a joke of Hugo. Balzac told a friend that there are only two men who know how to write French, "Myself and Hugo." When it was reported to Hugo, he said, "That is all right, but why Balzac?" (Laughter)
There is a story of a Calvinist lady. Calvinists believe in the doctrine that people are predestined to go to either Heaven or Hell. Someone asked her, "Do you know where people of your congregation will go?" She said, "All will go to Hell, except myself and the minister. But I have doubts about the minister." (Laughter)
Disciple: Very similar is the case of Dr. R who is here. When he first came here I asked him about homeopaths. He said, "You see there are four topmost men in the line. One is in Calcutta, two are abroad, and I came here." (Laughter)
21 JANUARY 1939
Dr. R's visit today. As usual he began the massage.
Dr. R: Do you feel the pain [in the knee-joint] still?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes.
Dr. R: That is because you are moving the leg after a long time; it will disappear when you are accustomed to it.
Sri Aurobindo: Accustomed to the pain? (Laughter)
After local politics, Buddhism etc., the talk turned to the war and the Congress. Pattabhi was elected President. Patel wanted to settle the Rajkot issue, or go to East Africa to offer Satyagraha there.
Disciple: I am afraid if Patel goes to East or South Africa the Indians there would be shot.
Sri Aurobindo: Instead of Patel going to Africa it is better that Gandhi should go to Hitler. Hitler will tell him: "You follow your inner voice Mr. Gandhi, I my own." There is no reason to say that he would be wrong, for my inner voice may be good and necessary for me, while it may not be so for another. The very opposite may be good and necessary for him. The Cosmic Spirit has one thing for Hitler and may lead him on the way he is going, while it may decide differently in another case.
Disciple: That may lead to a clash between the two and the breaking of the instruments.
Disciple: What of that? Something good may come out of it.
Disciple: That might lead to fatalism, or belief in destiny.
Sri Aurobindo: It may. There have been people who have believed in fate or destiny or whatever you may call it. Napoleon III used to say: "So long as something is necessary to be done by me it will be done in any case; when that necessity will cease, I shall be thrown on the wayside like an outworn vessel." And that is exactly what happened to him. Napoleon Bonaparte also believed in fate.
Disciple: Yes. When somebody asked him, why did he plan if he believed in fate, he said: "It is also fated that I should plan."
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. All men who have been great and strong believe in some higher force greater than themselves, moving them. Socrates used to call this force his Daemon. It is curious how sometimes even in small things one depends on the voice. Once Socrates was walking with a disciple. When they came to a place where they had to take a turn, the disciple said, "Let us take this route." Socrates said: "No, my Daemon asks me to take the other." The disciple did not agree and followed his own route. After he had gone a certain distance he was attacked by a herd of pigs and thrown down by them.
There are some who do not follow an inner voice but an inner light. The Quakers believed in that.
Disciple: Do they see the light?
Sri Aurobindo: I don't know, but someone has said: "See that your light is not darkness." The strange thing is that the inner voice does not give any reason; it only says: "Do this; if you do not do it, bad results will follow." And strangely enough, bad results do follow if you don't listen to it. Lele used to say that whenever he did not follow his inner voice he had pain and suffering.
Disciple: But there are many kinds of voices due to the forces on different planes and it is extremely difficult to distinguish between the right or the true inner voice and a false one. There may be voices either from the mental, the vital or the subtle physical planes. Moreover, in the same person the voices may differ.
Sri Aurobindo: Quite true. Hitler's friend said about him that what Hitler said today he contradicted tomorrow.
I also heard a voice which asked me to come to Pondicherry; of course, it was the inner voice.
Disciple: Cannot one be mistaken?
Sri Aurobindo: It was impossible to make a mistake about, or disobey, that voice. There are some voices about which there can be no possibility of any doubt or mistake. Charu Chandra Roy wanted me to go to France so that we may have no further trouble. When I arrived at Chandernagore he refused to receive me and threw me on to Moti Roy.
Disciple: But why should he receive you?
Sri Aurobindo: Because as a revolutionary he was obliged to do so.
Disciple: Was he also a revolutionary?
Sri Aurobindo: Good Lord! We were together in jail and perhaps his jail experience frightened him. At the beginning he was a very ardent revolutionary.
Disciple: Nolini says he was weeping and weeping in jail. The jail authorities thought that he could not be a revolutionary when he wept so much, and so let him off. (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: No, that was not the reason. It was by the intervention of the French Government, I think, that he got his release. He was a very ardent revolutionary in the beginning. Barin one day walked into his house, gave him a long lecture on revolution and converted him in one day.
Disciple: I heard that Nivedita also was a revolutionary, is it true?
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean? She was one of the revolutionary leaders. She went about visiting various places in India to come in contact with the people. She was open and frank and talked about her revolutionary plan to everybody. When she used to speak on revolution it was her very soul that spoke, her true personality used to come out. Yoga was yoga of course, but it was as if this work was intended for her: that was fire if you like. Her book Kali the Mother is very inspiring, but it is revolutionary and not non-violent. She went about among the Thakurs of Rajputana trying to preach them revolution. At that time everybody wanted some sort of revolution. I met several Rajput Thakurs who, unsuspected by the Government, had revolutionary ideas. One of them, Thakur Ramsingh, joined our movement and was afterwards caught and put in jail. He suddenly died there in a short time. Moropant said, "He died out of fright." But he was not a man to be frightened. They may have poisoned him. Moropant, you know, later turned Moderate. More than one battalion in the Indian Army was ready to help us. I knew a Punjabi sentry at Alipur who spoke to me about the revolution.
Once Nivedita came to the Gaekwad and told him that it was his duty to join the revolution. She said, "If you have anything more to ask, you can ask Mr. Ghose." But the Gaekwad never talked politics with me afterwards.
But one thing I could not understand about Nivedita was her admiration for Gokhale. I wondered how a revolutionary could have any admiration for him. Once she was so much exercised when his life was threatened that she came to me and asked, "Mr. Ghose, is it one of your men doing this?" I said, "No." She was much relieved and said, "Then it must be a free-lance."
The first time she came to see me, she said, "I hear, Mr. Ghose, you are a worshipper of Shakti?" There was no non-violence about her. She had an artistic side too. Khaserao Jadhav and I went to receive her at the station. When she saw the Dharmashala near the station, she exclaimed, "How beautiful!" But looking at the College building she cried out, "How ugly!" Later Khaserao said, "She must be a little mad!"
Disciple: The College building is supposed to be an imitation of Eton.
Sri Aurobindo: But Eton has no dome!
Disciple: It is a combination of modern and ancient architecture.
Sri Aurobindo: At any rate it is an ugly dome. The Ramakrishna Mission was afraid of her political activities and asked her to keep them separate from the Missions work.
Disciple: What about her yogic achievements?
Sri Aurobindo: I don't know. Whenever we met we spoke about politics and revolution. But her eyes showed a power of concentration and a capacity for going into trance. She had got something in her spiritual life.
Disciple: She came to India with the idea of doing Yoga.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. But she took up politics as part of Vivekananda's work. Her book is one of the best on Vivekananda. Vivekananda himself had ideas about political work and revolution. Once he had a vision which corresponded to something like Maniktolla Garden. It is curious that many Sannyasins at that time had thought of India's freedom. Ramana Maharshi's young disciples were revolutionaries. Our Yogananda's Guru also had such ideas. Thakur Dayananda was also one such. (Turning to a disciple) Do you know one Mr. Manthelé?
Disciple: The one with spectacles?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes.
Disciple: Yes I know him. He has become a quiet man and settled down to ordinary life.
Sri Aurobindo: It was he who introduced me through someone to the secret society where I came in contact with Tilak and others.
Disciple: It seems Gandhi criticised Nivedita as volatile and mercurial. The Modern Review violetly protested and he had to recant.
Sri Aurobindo: Nivedita volatile? What nonsense! She was a solid worker.
22 JANUARY 1939
Sri Aurobindo surprised N by asking him: "What about D's fast?" N had told him yesterday that D was going to fast on his birthday, i.e., today, but had forgotten about it.
Disciple: I hear he had taken bread and butter in the morning and at mid-day a light meal.
Sri Aurobindo: Fasting with bread and milk?
Disciple: There are people in Gujarat who believe that bread and milk can be taken in a fast. (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: That is also the custom in Bengal, I believe. It reminds me of a story. Nevinson went to see Tilak who met him wearing a dhoti. Reporting the meeting, Nevinson said, "Mr. Tilak met me naked in his loin-cloth." (Laughter)
( At this time another disciple came in; he seemed to be bubbling with news.)
Sri Aurobindo: What is the news?
Disciple: No news today. I read a fine joke about Soviet Russia in the book Inside Europe. Someone cries, "Help! A louse on Stalin's head!" Another says, "Socialise it; the rest will follow." (Laughter)
I also looked up what Lindberg said. He says that the Soviet air-fleet is not as powerful as it is thought.
Sri Aurobindo: In what way?
Disciple: I don't know.
Sri Aurobindo: That is very vague. Does he mean that the aeroplanes are not made of sound material, or that the pilots are not well-trained? If he says only that much, he does not give any knowledge.
In the war between Russia and Japan, the Japanese admitted that the Russian artillery was remarkable, it did not miss the mark, but the infantry was not good, for even when they got a very good opportunity they did not take advantage of it. On the other hand, the Japanese army is perhaps the best in the world. In spite of overwhelming numbers against them in China, they have been able to conquer. Chiang Kai-shek had trumpeted that he would defeat the Japanese in a very short time. They did not reply but at the end of each defeat the Japanese were further inside China than before.
Disciple: They say that the Japanese are not good in the air. They missed their aim many times.
Sri Aurobindo: Idon't know about that. The Japanese are good at concentrating on one thing at a time, but a pilot is required to concentrate on many points at the same time.
Disciple: Mussolini is asking all Italian firms to close down at Djibouti, and thus create dissatisfaction. He is trying to cut off the railway connecting Djibouti and Abyssinia and make another line through Eritrea to Asmara.
Sri Aurobindo: That would still not make France give up Djibouti because it is an important sea-link between France and her eastern colonies. Even if the Premier and Flandin wanted to give it up the French people won't.
Disciple: I hear that Lady B stayed in Ramanashrama for about a week. She spent about a hundred rupees per day on her food. Mona says the husband's name doesn't seem to belong to an old aristocratic family. He is a rubber magnate — he manufactures tyres.
Sri Aurobindo: Idon't understand how a Catholic could have that occupation.
Disciple: Heirloom perhaps?
Sri Aurobindo: Which? The tyre or Catholicism? (Laughter)
Disciple: What was Lady B's impression of our Ashram?
Sri Aurobindo: She was much impressed and was full of praise for the Mother; she thought it must be the work of a genius. But she thinks a genius can work without finances!
Disciple: But she seems to have contributed something.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, 5 pounds. Till now the Americans who have come here are either poor or rich ones who don't donate.
Disciple: She seems to have done better than Sir H who did not donate anything but took a loaf of bread back with him! (Laughter)
( At this point the Mother came)
Sri Aurobindo: N wanted to know Lady B's impressions.
Mother: She was full of compliments. She was much impressed by the tidiness, cleanliness and beauty in the Ashram. (Addressing Sri Aurobindo) She is not much more than a tourist. She is going to Japan to study with Suzuki. She has much admiration for genius, probably because genius does not require finance.
( There was a pause of silence. The conversation seemed to have ended for the night when a disciple asked a question.)
Disciple: Yesterday we had a talk about hearing the voice: is there any standard by which one can judge whether it is a true voice?
Sri Aurobindo: What standard? There is no such standard. How can you judge whether it is right or wrong?
Disciple: Then is Hitler who says, "I heard a voice and I follow it," right?
Sri Aurobindo: Right in what sense? Morally?
Disciple: He means spiritually, perhaps.
Sri Aurobindo: How can you say his voice is not right? He has seen that by following it he has been able to get Austria and Czechoslovakia, and he has been successful in many other things. Then how can you say it is not a true voice? As I said, the Cosmic Spirit may want him to go that way. Even morally, you can't say that he is immoral. He is very restricted as regards food and is supposed to have no wife or mistress and leads a controlled life in all other respects. These are moral qualities. Robespierre was also a moral man and yet he killed many people.
Disciple: But then, what is meant by the 'true voice'?
Sri Aurobindo: That is the psychic voice. But the spiritual point of view is quite different. There is no question of right or wrong in it. One goes above all these standards and looks from that plane. But for that it is essential to have the perception and feeling of the Divine in all, veiled behind the Gunas. From that plane one finds that the Gita is right in what it says about the Gunas: that man is made to act by the action of the Gunas. There was an angry Sannyasi who came to the Kali Temple at Calcutta. Ramakrishna said about him: "He is a Tamasic Narayana." But he could not keep that standard when another Vedantin came there with a concubine. He asked the Vedantin: "Why do you keep a concubine?" The Vedantin replied: "Everything is Maya, so what does it matter what you do or do not do?" Ramakrishna said: "I spit on your Vedanta." But logically, the Vedantin was right. So long as you believe everything to be Maya you can do as you like. But how will you say which is right? For instance, what will you say about Curzon's action?
Disciple: About Bengal partition?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, was he right? He thought he was quite right in what he was doing, while others thought he was wrong. And yet, but for his action India would not have been half as free as she is today. So, the Cosmic Spirit may have, after all, led him to do it to bring this result. There is a Cabalist prophecy: the golden age will come when the Jews will be driven off and persecuted everywhere. So, Hitler may be bringing that about. There are so many ways of looking at a thing. For instance, this American lady thinks, perhaps, that she is giving us a big sum, but we call it a joke.
Disciple: Then, can one say that one has no responsibility? One can do as one likes? In that case one becomes a fatalist.
Sri Aurobindo: No. One can't do as one likes. Everyone is not Hitler and can't do what Hitler does, because it is one's nature that makes one do things. Your question reminds me of the story of my grandmother. She said: "God has made such a bad world. If I could meet Him I would tell Him what I think of Him." My grandfather said: "Yes, it is true. But God has so arranged it that you can't get near Him so long as you have any such desire in you." (Laughter)
When we say that Hitler is possessed by a vital force it is a statement of fact, not a moral judgment. It is clear from what he does and the way he does it.
I remember a young Sannyasi with long nails who came to Baroda. He used to stay under trees. Deshpande and myself went to see him. Deshpande asked him: "What is the Dharma, the standard of action?" He replied, "There is no such standard. It is the Dharma of the thief to steal because that is his nature." Deshpande was very angry when he heard that. I said, "It is only a point of view."
But all this does not mean that there is no consequence for one's action. As Christ said, "Offence cometh but woe unto him by whom the offence cometh." There is a law of being which throws upon you the murder, persecution etc. you carry out; when you inflict suffering on others out of self-will, the suffering will come back to you, that is the law of Karma.
Disciple: S used to quote to me the famous verse of Duryodhana: Jānāmi dharmam nacha me pravṛittih — I know what is the Dharma but I can't gather force to do what I should do.
Sri Aurobindo: You have the other verse: "Seated in my heart, as Thou directest, I act."[1]
The question comes up seriously when you want to change yourself or change others. When you say "This should not be" and "That should go", etc., you introduce a rule of mind in the vital, but when you go above the mind you come in contact with your spirit and the nature of the Spirit is Light, Truth, Purity. When you observe discipline it is for the Spirit, not for the sake of the mental rule. If you want to attain the standard of purity you have to reject what comes in the way. So also about lying. You have to stop lying if you want the Truth, not because of the mental principle of right and wrong, but for the sake of the Spirit. There are many parts in nature: One part may try to reject things that are contrary to the change and contradictory to each other, but another part prevents it. As the Roman poet said: "I see the better things but I follow the worse."
Disciple: Vedanta for some time was a byword for hypocrisy. People used to speak of them as Bedantins — with two sets of teeth, — one for showing and another for chewing, like the elephant. What is the truth of Varna Marga?
Sri Aurobindo: I don't know. It must have been with the idea of taking up forces and pulling them high up. Even the sexual act has to be done from a high consciousness. The Upanishad also says it is possible.
But to go back to our original point about the law of Nature. We have to understand that all this does not mean that there is no moral standard. Humanity requires a certain standard; it helps its progress. It is obvious from what Hitler is doing that he is not serving the forces of Light. He is serving what the Jews would call "the forces of unrighteousness". But from the spiritual point of view, that may also be necessary. As they say, "It takes all sorts to make the world."
But again all this does not mean that one should not recognise other planes. For instance, there is the vital plane whose laws are force and success. If you have the force you win. If you have speed you outrun others. The laws of the mind come in and act as a means of balance. They balance diverse things to make a mental-vital standard.
If you go above the vital and mental planes you come to a point where the Gita's Sarva dharmān parityajya becomes the principle. But there if you leave out the last portion, māmekam śaraṇam vraja — take refuge in Me alone — then you follow your ego and you fall, and become either an Asura or a lunatic or an animal. But even the animals have a sense of right and wrong. That is very well shown in Kipling's Jungle Book. Have you read it?
Disciple: No.
Sri Aurobindo: There he shows how the pack falls on the one that fails to keep the standard. By human contact the animals develop that sense even more —
( The Mother came in at this point with Sri Aurobindo's dinner. Then, after some time she departed.)
Disciple: Is it true that the Supramental Being is Bhagawan?
Sri Aurobindo: All are Bhagawan, all are Divine.
Disciple: That is potential, or say, veiled Bhagawan; otherwise we have to accept that the world is perfect even as it is.
Sri Aurobindo: It is as perfect as it could be at present.
Disciple: That is to say a more perfect perfection has to be attained yet.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it has to be.
23 JANUARY 1939
Disciple: My friend N is hesitating to put to you a question. He is puzzled by a contradiction in what you said yesterday about the Gunas.
Disciple: You said that the Cosmic Spirit might be leading Hitler on the way he is going and again you said that the Cosmic Spirit is not responsible for Hitler's actions. These two statements seem contradictory to me.
Sri Anrobindo: That is generally the case when one states some truth: one has to express it in contradictory terms. (Laughter)
Disciple: N expected intellectual consistency in your views.
Sri Aurobindo: Truth is not always consistent, but the contradiction you see does not mean that there is no responsibility or no morality, no right and wrong. The individual is responsible because he accepts the action of the Gunas.
Disciple: But it is the Cosmic Spirit that makes him accept it, is it not?
Sri Aurobindo: No. The Cosmic Spirit does not act directly. It acts through the Nature. The Cosmic Spirit acts not through the true individuality but through the individual in Nature. It acts through personality and personality is not the person. Personality is something formed of the mental, vital and physical nature. This personality is responsible because it accepts the Gunas through ego and nature. As I said, the Cosmic Spirit works through the nature and not direct.
Disciple: But the Cosmic Spirit works its purpose through the individual, by making him carry out its intention.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but that does not mean that the individual is not responsible. The Cosmic is and contains both good and evil.
Disciple: Then it is the Cosmic Spirit that is responsible for the evil.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, the Cosmic Spirit is responsible for both good and evil; you can't say it is responsible for one and not the other. Through both good and evil, Light and Darkness and their struggle in evolution, the Cosmic Spirit works out its purpose.
Disciple: For example, in the Kurukshetra battle, Duryodhana thought that he was in the right. He did not know that he was leading his own family into destruction.
Sri Aurobindo: But the Cosmic Spirit is not in evolution, while the individual is in evolution. The individual progresses in his evolution by his nature, — he evolves through his nature.
Disciple: Can the individual refuse or reject the Gunas?
Sri Aurobindo: Certainly. The individual can refuse to submit to Nature. For example, Arjuna refused to act according to his nature and eighteen chapters of the Gita had to be told to make him fight.
Disciple: Even though the Cosmic Spirit had already slain the warriors, yet Arjuna was asked to be the instrument.
Sri Aurobindo: Real liberation comes when the Purusha awakes and feels himself separate from Nature, not bound by it but free and lord.
Disciple: But generally the Purusha is bound.
Sri Aurobindo: Of course. Usually the Purusha consents to the action of Prakriti but he can withdraw his consent and stand apart. He can be free by getting out of evolution, by being free from the working of ego and nature-personalities.
Disciple: When the freedom of the Purusha is won then it becomes possible for the individual to look beyond the Cosmic Spirit to the Transcendent and act in the Cosmos according to the will of the Transcendent — is it so?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. Instead of being an instrument of ignorant nature you become the instrument of the Divine.
Disciple: Do you mean by the Cosmic Spirit the Impersonal Consciousness?
Sri Aurobindo: No. The Cosmic Spirit is a Personality — but not in the narrow sense of personality; it is both static and dynamic, Saguna and Nirguna, the Nirguna supporting the Saguna.
Disciple: You said that the psychic being also is a personality.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. The psychic being is a Psychic Purusha.
Disciple: Does the psychic being develop from birth to birth?
Sri Aurobindo: It is not the psychic being itself that develops, but it guides the evolution of the individual being by increasing the psychic element in the nature of the individual. It is these personalities in nature that are bound.
Disciple: It is said that the psychic is a spark of the Divine.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes.
Disciple: Then it seems that the function of the psychic being is the same as that of Vedic Agni, who is the leader of the journey?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. Agni is the God of the Psychic and, among the other things it does, it leads the upward journey.
Disciple: How does the psychic carry the personalities formed in this life into another life?
Sri Aurobindo: After death, it gathers its elements and carries them onward to another birth. But it is not the same personality that is born. People easily misunderstand these things, specially when they are put in terms of the mind. The past personality is taken only as the basis but a new personality is put forward. If it was the same personality, then it would act exactly in the same manner and there would be no meaning in that.
Disciple: Does the experience of the Cosmic Spirit correspond to what you have termed the Overmind?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but you can have the experience of the Cosmic Consciousness on any other level of consciousness also. Generally, you have it on the level of the Higher Mind where you feel the two aspects, static and dynamic, as separate. But as you go above, you find the Overmind overarches all the other levels and there the two aspects are gathered together and combined in the same consciousness. (Turning to N) So you see, Hitler is responsible so long as he does not feel that he is not Hitler.
Disciple: But does he feel that he is responsible?
Sri Aurobindo: He feels that he is responsible not only for himself but for the whole of Germany.
When Hitler began he was not like that. He was considered an amusing crank and nobody took any notice of him. But his latest photograph shows him to be a criminal, he seems to be going down into darkness very fast. It is the Vital Power that gives him his size and greatness. Without its possession he would be a crudely amiable person with some curious hobbies and eccentricities. This possession was possible because the psychic being in him is undeveloped. There is nothing in his being that can resist the Vital Power.
Mussolini has a comparatively better developed psychic and a very strong vital. But in his last photograph he seems to have weakened. Either he is physically unwell or is aging or perhaps he has misused his powers.
Disciple: Hitler feels responsible for all the 'Aryans', whatever that may mean.
Sri Aurobindo: Of course, the only 'Aryans' are the Germans!
To get free of responsibility you must get rid of the ego, that is to say, of the mental and vital and other personalities. It is they who feel the responsibility and bear the consequences.
Disciple: Can one be free if one acts without feeling responsibility?
Sri Aurobindo: You can't get rid of responsibility like that. Even though you may say you are not responsible, you will feel internally that you are responsible.
You must become free if you want to be free from responsibility. There are three ways, or rather several ways, of attaining that freedom. One is by the separation of Purusha from Prakriti and realising it as free from it. Another is by realising the Self, the Atman or the Spirit, free from the cosmic movement. A third is by the identification with the Transcendent — by realising the Paramatman. You can also have this freedom by merging into the Shunyam through the Buddhistic discipline.
Disciple: In the experience of the first two methods does the Purusha remain the witness?
Sri Aurobindo: Not necessarily. It may be a witness in the first method because the Purusha separates himself from Prakriti and is then the witness not taking part in her action.
But in the second — the realisation of the Self— the Purusha need not be the witness of the universe, or the universal movement. The Self may remain ingathered without witnessing anything. There are many conditions into which the spirit can pass.
A certain kind of Nirvana is necessary even for our Yoga. That is to say, the world must become, in a way, nothing to you, because as it is constituted it is the work of Ignorance. Then only can you enter into and bring into existence the true creation, the world of Truth or Light here.
Disciple: When the Gita says: "You will find the Self in all and all in the Self and then in Me" — what Self does it speak of?
Sri Aurobindo: It is the Brahmic Consciousness. That is to say, you see one Consciousness in all and all contained in the One Self; and then you rise above to the realisation of the One that is both personal and impersonal and is above both.
Disciple: Is it true that men with a spiritual bent are born with Adhikara for it?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes.
Disciple: Can one acquire Adhikara That is to say, if one has not the Adhikara at first, can one get it by some means?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, a man can acquire Adhikara. That is what we mean when we say "He is not ready"; and when we say "He can prepare himself" it means he can get the Adhikara.
Disciple: A man can also acquire Adhikara by keeping the company of saints?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, of course.
Disciple: One gets tired by the problems of manifestation!
Sri Aurobindo: Being tired is not enough. One must acquire the power to be free, by moving out of evolution, that is to say, one must get the power to act from beyond the evolution.
Many yogis when they go beyond, into the Spirit or the Cosmic Consciousness, allow Cosmic Nature to act through them without any sense of individual responsibility. They remain concentrated in, or identified with, the Higher Consciousness, and their nature moves sometimes uncontrolled; and you find, like X found, that at times such spiritual men use foul language. Of course, the yogi or the spirit in them is not bound by the rules of decency, that is why they act like Jada, or Pishacha, or Bala, allowing Nature to play freely in them.
When one has attained the Higher Consciousness then, as the Upanishad says, one does not regret: "I did not do that which was good", or "I did this which is evil." It is not that all yogis act that way. But some of them know the reason, or the necessity of why they act at a particular time, in a particular way. Only, they are not bound by their action.
Another difficulty arises because many yogis are bad philosophers, and so they cannot put their experiences in mental terms. But that does not mean that they have no real spiritual experience. They do not want to acquire intellectual development, for they wanted only to reach a Higher Consciousness and they are satisfied with that. When you look for things the yogi has never tried to have then you get disappointed like the American lady who objected to Ramana Maharshi's spitting and biting his nails. That has nothing to do with his spirituality.
Disciple: Can one say that in the aspect of Pure Being, Consciousness is absent?
Sri Aurobindo: No, even in what you call Pure Being, Consciousness is there, only it is held back, or is inactive so to say; while in Chit that aspect is in front.
Disciple: In these matters using mental terms always creates confusion because, as you have so often said, Sachchidananda is the prime Reality and no part of it can be thought of as separate.
Disciple: The difficulty arises when one has seen many exponents of the different systems of Sadhana. Then one finds great difficulty in choosing between them.
Disciple: But does one always choose these things with the mind?
Disciple: There is no other go. Cannot the study of different systems lead one to Knowledge?
Sri Aurobindo: It can help in making an approach to the path of Knowledge. Philosophy is an attempt to explain to the human mind what is really beyond it. But to the Western mind thought is the highest thing — if you can think out an explanation of the universe you have reached the goal of mental activity. They use the mind for the sake of using it — that leads nowhere. (Turning to N) So, you see, the universe is not a question of logic but of consciousness.
Disciple: But is the study of philosophy indispensable?
Sri Aurobindo: No, not at all.
Disciple: I would like to know everything by experience.
Sri Aurobindo: You can know what philosophy preaches, or has to say, by direct experience, and by something more which philosophy cannot give.
Disciple: The Sankhya's division between Purusha and Prakriti, in one sense, is very sharp, and so it helps one to get away from the bondage of Prakriti.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is categorical. They believe in the two — Purusha and Prakriti, as the final elements. Sankhya and Buddhism were both first understood and appreciated by Europe. Sankhya because of its sharp distinction between Purusha who is consciousness and Prakriti which they believe to be inconscient. According to Sankhya, Prakriti is jada — inconscient, and it is the light of the consciousness of Purusha that makes Prakriti appear conscious. It believes that even Buddhi is jada.
But we in our Yoga need not accept this sharp cleavage between Purusha and Prakriti.
The Europeans like Buddhism for its strong rationalism; its logic leads to Shunyam, the state of non-being, which is its aim. There is also a strong note of agnosticism in Buddhism which appeals to them. It is something that hangs in the air, for the base is Shunyam — you don't know on what basis the whole thing stands.
There is a certain similarity between Science and Sankhya; for in science they believe that evolution begins with the inconscient and goes up the scale of consciousness.
Disciple: We have so much darkness in us that we can't empty it by our own efforts. At times, it seems that even a little light will do!
Sri Aurobindo: No. A little light, a mere candle-like mental illumination, will not do. There must be the full sun-light. And that is very difficult to attain and bring down. It is a slow process, but that is what we mean when we say: "You must have an opening." If you have an opening, gradually more and more light can come in.
Disciple: How can we accept the Light without knowing it is there?
Sri Aurobindo: That means something in you does not want it, otherwise there is hardly any difficulty. Of course, so far as the world is concerned it has always refused to accept the Light when it came. It is a test for knowing whether the world is ready or not. For example, when Christ was sentenced Pilate had the right to pardon one of the four condemned, and he pardoned Barabbas. Nowadays, they say that Barabbas was not a robber, but a national hero, that he was a sort of Robinhood. Whatever that may be, it is a fact that the romantic robber was preferred to the Son of God; or the political opponent to the Teacher of the Truth.
Disciple: You spoke about experience, but I have no experience. All I feel is pressure at the time of meditation.
Sri Aurobindo: You at least feel the pressure.
Disciple: But how to know that it is due to the working of the Higher Power?
Sri Aurobindo: If you can wait you will know yourself, or you have to accept it from the Guru who has gone through the experience — you have to accept it by Sravana, hearing, and then by Manana, meditating upon it.
Disciple: It is said that ascent and descent take place. How to know it?
Sri Aurobindo: You will yourself know it when it takes place; you can't miss it.
24 JANUARY 1939
Sri Aurobindo ( turning to P who usually brought the news of local politics) : Any news?
Disciple: No news except what C gives me. Mahatma Gandhi advised the Japanese visitor Dr. Kagawa to include Shantiniketan and Pondicherry in his itinerary — without seeing these, his visit to India would be incomplete.
Sri Aurobindo: Oh that? I have heard about it.
( At this juncture the Mother arrived and a short meditation followed. After her departure Sri Aurobindo resumed.)
Sri Aurobindo: There is some news for you.
Disciple: For me? Let us hear.
Sri Aurobindo: S and B [both local officials] have been directed by the French Ministry to return at once to Pondicherry by aeroplane. The Ministry seems to be going against D [leader of the local party in power]. D is no longer invulnerable it seems. I don't know why the Minister has suddenly taken this change of attitude.
Disciple: D, I understand — this information was unauthenticated and so I had kept silent — had written to the Minister against S while S was in France. S must have found that out and taken up a definite line of action against D and his party.
Sri Aurobindo: There is a Greek saying that when one becomes too fortunate and too powerful, he becomes insolent and commits excesses, and that strikes against the throne of God and then retribution begins. D ought to have known that.
G [leader of the former dominant party] was not like that. He never lost the sense of balance, never pushed things too far. When X [one of his lieutenants] asked him to arrest his political opponent he replied, "Ça c'est une mauvaise politique."
Disciple: Hitler also has had a precipitous rise, he can't maintain the momentum. He can't last very long.
Sri Aurobindo: There is a famous Greek story about Polycrates, the tyrant of Samos. Do you know it?
Disciple: No.
Sri Aurobindo: This tyrant wanted to make friends with another tyrant [Amasis of Egypt]. The latter replied: "You are too fortunate. You must sacrifice something or have some little misfortune to compensate for your fortune, otherwise, I can't ally myself with you." Polycrates threw his most precious ring into the sea as a sacrifice to compensate for his fortune. The ring was swallowed by a fish and that fish, caught by a fisherman, was brought to him. He got back the ring. The other tyrant heard about it and said: "You are too lucky. I shall never ally myself with you." Polycrates was afterwards killed by his people who had risen in revolt. 'The ring of Polycrates' is a proverbial expression in English.
The Roman poet says: "The Titans fall by their own mass." There is a similar idea in India when it is said: "The Asuras are too heavy for the earth to bear their weight." But some Asuras are clever enough to flourish in spite of proverbs.
Disciple: Can it be said that the Asuras by their action contradict the law of evolution or that they contradict something fundamental in human nature?
Sri Aurobindo (after keeping silent for some time) : There is no such general law. The thing is that the Asuras can't keep balance. The law that demands balance then strikes.
Then Sri Aurobindo became silent. After some time, looking at a disciple he said with regard to yesterday's topic: "Is your cosmic problem solved?"
Disciple: Not until I get the experience. But I have some interesting news from Calcutta. M has been telling her relations such a number of lies that they have found it out and say: "There is truth on both sides."
Sri Aurobindo: But what does she say?
Disciple: She says that the Ashram tried to keep her child because of her property. We are short of money, especially as the new building is being done now, and that police intervention has taken place before also.
Sri Aurobindo: But how can we get the money from her child? Everybody knows that the property belongs to M and she is not going to die within a few years. It is not the Ashram that wanted to keep the child, she wanted to stay of her own accord. And where was the police intervention? By saying that, M deprives herself the credit of having been the first who brought in the police.
Disciple: She says all that to save her face.
Sri Aurobindo: It will take a lot of saving.
( After a period of silence)
Disciple: A.B. is supposed to have said that Vivekananda, by his idea of service to humanity, brought in a mixture and spoiled the spirituality that was intended to be cultivated by Ramakrishna.
Sri Aurobindo: In what way?
Disciple: I don't know. Thats all I was told.
Sri Aurobindo: That is not enough. I know nothing about it.
But was it Ramakrishna's idea that Vivekananda followed? Was it Ramakrishna who asked him to do service to humanity?
Disciple: As far as I remember he spoke of loka hita — the good of the world.
Sri Aurobindo: But that is not the same as service to humanity. The Gita also asks us to work for the good of the world. Loka hita can be done in many ways.
Disciple: So far as I know Ramakrishna did not say anything like that. In feet, there was a great difference among Ramakrishna's disciples about what Vivekananda was bringing in. But some of them submitted saying: "Vivekananda must know better." The phrase 'Daridra Narayana' was Vivekananda's.
Disciple: But some disciples, even though they did not object, did not take any part in that work. Brahmananda was one. We heard he had a greater realisation than Vivekananda.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, I think so. He was spiritually higher. I once met Brahmananda when I went to see Belur Math. He asked me about some letters received from the Government. I don't remember what it was about. He asked me whether he should do anything or keep quiet. I asked him to keep silent and not give any reply.
Disciple: Ramakrishna Mission seems to be more occupied with social and humanitarian work; I don't know if there is much spirituality in it. My cousin, Swami Adwaitananda, went there and he was quite dissatisfied and came back.
Sri Aurobindo: Plenty of people complain of that. But what work do they do?
Disciple: Medical-relief, famine-relief.
Sri Aurobindo: Famine-relief is not all the year round. Medical-relief is something.
Disciple: Education also.
Disciple: Nowadays in many places they feed the poor as service to Daridra Narayana, — the poor as Narayana. On the birthdays of saints and Yogis there is what Vivekananda called Seva of Daridra Narayana.
Sri Aurobindo: I see no idea in that. What is the use of feeding people for one day, when they have to fast all the year round? You can satisfy your conscience that you have done something for the poor, I suppose. If you could find out the cause of poverty and try to remove that, then it would be some real work.
Disciple: But that is not easy, Sir. There are so many difficulties, political, economic, etc.
Sri Aurobindo: I don't think it is so insoluble as all that. If you give the people education — by education I mean proper education, not the modern type — and the means, then the problem could be solved. People in England or France have not this kind of poverty as we have in India. That is because of their education — they are not so helpless.
Disciple: About six thousand people were fed on the birthday of Ramana Maharshi. There were so many people on this occasion that they were not allowed to touch him: only to stand at a distance, make pranam or have darshan and go away.
Sri Aurobindo: If they were allowed to touch him, he would have felt like the President of America who had to shake hands with thousands of people and in the end got an aching hand.
Disciple: There are people who give a lot of money for such purposes of temporary utility, but curiously enough, we don't get any. One man actually told me that we didn't require money because we had buildings, etc.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, that is the impression. They think, like the American Lady B, that the Ashram is a work of genius and genius can do without money. (Laughter) It is only a minority among the rich who give money; mostly it is the poor that give, like Gracieuse who hardly earns enough to maintain her family yet whenever she finds an opportunity she sends us money. There is a rumour that we have a lot of money stored in Pavitra's cellar! (Laughter)
26 JANUARY 1939
Disciple: Barcelona is going! The French people are waking up at the eleventh hour.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, the democracies are not showing much courage, at present, at any rate.
Disciple: It seems political ideas and ideals are not worth fighting for. Thousands fought for democracy, and now they are in a hurry to give it up! Nothing seems to be permanent in the political field.
Sri Aurobindo: Quite so. All human values are half values — they are relative. They have no permanence or durability about them.
Disciple: Perhaps if men became more mentalised, they would understand things better.
Sri Aurobindo: By being mentalised? No! The difficulty is that men don't follow the principles of life.
Disciple: How is that?
Sri Aurobindo: Life compromises between different elements, but mind, when acting on its own, does not compromise. Mind takes up one thing and makes it absolute, considers it as apart from and opposed to all other things.
Hegel boasted that in Europe they had succeeded in separating reason from life, and you see their philosophy — it has nothing to do with life; it is all mental gymnastics, it does not form part of life. While in India, philosophy has always been a part of life; it has an aim to realise everything.
So also in the political philosophy of Europe you find that if they accept democracy, it is only democracy — all the rest is opposed to it. If monarchy, then it is only monarchy. That is what happened in Greece. They fought for democracy, aristocracy and monarchy, and in the end they were conquered by the Romans.
Disciple: Then what is the truth in all these attempts at political organisation?
Sri Aurobindo: If you want to arrive at something true and lasting, you have to look at life and learn from it, that is to say, you must learn the nature of the oppositions and contradictions and then reconcile them.
As regards government, life shows that there is a truth in monarchy — whether hereditary or elective, there is a man at the top who governs. Life also shows that there is a truth in aristocracy, whether it is of strong men, or rich men, or intellectuals. The current fiction is that it is the majority that rules, but the fact is that it is the minority, the aristocracy. Life also shows that the rule of the king or the aristocracy should be with the consent, silent or vocal, of the people.
In ancient India, they recognised the truth of these things. That is why India has lasted through millenniums — and China also.
English politics is successful because they have always found one man or two who had the power to lead the minority which is the ruling class. During the Victorian period, it was either Gladstone or Disraeli. And even when the party in power changes, the other party that comes to power does not change things radically. They continue the same policy with a slight modification.
In France no government lasts. Sometimes it changes within a few days! The new government is a repetition of the one it replaces. Blum was one who wanted to do something radical but he was knocked out.
Disciple: Did you see Subhas's statement?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. He seems to have a queer logic: Because the rightists have a majority so the President should be from the leftists! And what is the sense in saying, "We will fight to the end"? I can understand that kind of opposition if you are going to have a revolution, then there can be no compromise. But once you have accepted compromise, there is no meaning in such statements. One has to work on the basis of what one has gained. Satyamurty's idea of federation seems all right to me. If the States' people are given some representation in the Centre and the Viceroy exercises no veto, then it would practically amount to Home Rule.
Disciple: The Viceroy's long stay in Bombay seems significant. I think there is something behind it. Perhaps he wants to make Dr. Kher or Rajagopalachari head of the Central Assembly in a Federation.
Sri Aurobindo: Is that so? Kher seems to be a very able man. He seems to have escaped the 'socialist trap'.
Disciple: Vallabhbhai is terribly anti-socialist. He crushed the socialists at Ahmedabad.
Sri Aurobindo: These socialists don't know what Socialism is.
Disciple: There were many humorous speeches in the Sindh Assembly. The Muslim League has been exposed.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. The Sindh Premier — I always forget his name — seems to be a strong man and stands up for ideas at the risk of unpopularity. That means some strength. The Sindh Muslims were anxious to join the Congress. The Congress should try to do something to make a coalition there. Congress ministries are successful everywhere. That shows the capacity to govern if the powers are given.
Disciple: Only Bengal and the Punjab remain now under the Muslim League.
Sri Aurobindo: The League is not so strong in Bengal — they have the Praja Party there. In Punjab, Sikandar Hayat Khan seems to be an able man. Only in U.P. the League seems strong. If Congress could win in Sindh then the Bengal and Punjab premiers will stand on two sides of India and make faces at each other.
Disciple: I wonder how Fazlul Huq could become a premier. Nazimuddin seems more capable.
Sri Aurobindo: Nazimuddin can't make a popular figure. Huq can turn as circumstances require. All these Muslims of the League seem to be a lot of self-seekers.
Disciple: The League is losing its strength now. Gandhi has definitely said that any compromise with it is impossible now.
Sri Aurobindo: Idon't understand why then the Congress has opened negotiations with the League; it is being given undue importance. How is it that the Congress is so weak in Punjab?
Disciple: Because of the Socialists and the old Congress people fighting each other. The Jaipur affair seems to be starting again. Bajaj is going to offer Satyagraha; it seems the Mahatma has given his approval.
Sri Aurobindo: Since he is a Congressman Isuppose Congress will have to back him. If the States' people get power, the Princes will have no work but to sign papers and hunt animals. The Gaekwad will have to stop making buildings.
Disciple: Where will they shoot? The forests are being destroyed nowadays.
Sri Aurobindo: The forests have to be preserved, otherwise the animals will become extinct. China has lost her forests and there are floods every year.
Disciple: There are so many maharajas, chieftains, nawabs all over India.
Sri Aurobindo: Germany was like that at one time. Napoleon swept away half of them and the last war swept off the other half. Japan also had many Princes but they voluntarily abdicated their powers for the sake of duty to the country.
Disciple: How far back in history do they go?
Sri Aurobindo: The Mikado claims to be the descendant of the Sun Goddess. The Mikado named Maigi believed that and used to do what was necessary after feeling the inspiration within him. There are two types of features among the Japanese: tall people with a long nose and a fine aristocratic face; they are said to have come from Australia and Polynesia. It is they who gave the Samurai culture to Japan; I met at Tagore's place a painter of this type, he had magnificent features. The other is the usual Mongolian type.
Disciple: The dictators psychology is an authority-complex. People under the dictator feel that they are great and that the dictator — in this case Hitler — is fighting for them, not they who fight for him. Perhaps the dictators find a competitor in God and religion. So they try to crush religion.
Sri Aurobindo: But Mussolini didn't, — though Kamal and Stalin did. Mussolini on the contrary has given more power to the Pope and the Vatican. He has practically recognised the Roman Catholic Church as the State religion.
Disciple: I read in a newspaper that Kamal, in an intoxicated condition, slapped an Egyptian because he came to a dinner party with a fez on.
Sri Aurobindo: You haven't heard the story of a journalist?
Disciple: No.
Sri Aurobindo: Well, a young journalist of Turkey criticised the goverment, saying, "Turkey is governed by a number of drunkards." Kamal came to know of it and sent him an invitation to dinner. After the dinner was over Kamal told him: "Young man, you have written that 'Turkey is governed by a number of drunkards.' It is not 'a number of drunkards', but just one drunkard."
Disciple: Kamal once tried to play off Italy against Russia.
Sri Aurobindo: But Russia has all along helped Turkey.
Disciple: Stalin forced the collectivisation of farming among the Ukranians. The farmers did not like it. So, to spite the government they collected from the farms only what they required for themselves for the year; they did not collect the crop for the government. Stalin came to know about it. In the meantime the crop standing in the fields was destroyed by cold and frost. He sent down his officials and they attached the corn collected by the farmers as State dues. The result was famine. The farmers starved and died by the thousands. Stalin did not help; he allowed them to die. He was afraid that once he submitted to them there would be no collectivisation anywhere.
Sri Aurobindo: That is what happens when Socialism comes. Communism is different. If they had been successful in carrying out the original idea of the Soviets then it would have been a great success. Mussolini at first tried to form a corporate State but he gave it up.
Disciple: The Socialists did not succeed in breaking up the trade-unions in Ahmedabad, which are under the Congress. The Indian farmer also won't accept the Socialists.
Sri Aurobindo: Socialism has no chance with the Indian peasant. He will side with you so long as you promise him land and help to end the landlord system. But once he has got the land no more Socialism for him. In Socialism you have the State which intervenes at every step with its officials who rob your money.
Disciple: They know the government machinery and they manage to keep the power in their hands.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. It is the State bureaucracy that dictates the policy irrespective of the good of the commune. In Communism they hold the land as the common property of the whole community — that is, the whole unit, and each one in it is entitled to labour and to have his share from the produce.
In India we had a kind of communism in the villages. The whole village was like a big family and the lowest had his right as a member of the family. The washerman, the carpenter, the blacksmith, the barber, all got what they needed.
Each such commune can be independent and many such units can be scattered all over the country and they can combine or coordinate their activities for a common purpose.
28 JANUARY 1939
The Mother left for the general meditation and the disciples were ready to begin some topic, but Sri Aurobindo seemed pre-occupied with something. He was rather thoughtful and in a mood of silence. So none ventured to begin. After a few minutes Sri Aurobindo looked at the company present and there was a spontaneous smile on every face.
Disciple: P seems to have some news.
Sri Aurobindo: Then why doesn't he spurt it out?
Disciple: There is nothing particular today.
Sri Aurobindo: There is a cure for your cold in the Sunday Times: you have to get into an aeroplane, take some rounds, get down and you are cured.
Disciple: Permanently?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, if the plane comes down with a crash, the cure would be permanent. (Laughter)
Disciple: One friend V used to put a cotton string into his nose for his cold.
Disciple: That is a Hathayogic process.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. They also insert a long piece of cloth into their intestines and bring it out through the anus in order to clean the track.
Disciple: Is it possible?
Sri Aurobindo: There is no question of its being possible, it is actually done. And there have been authentic cases of taking poisons like nitric acid, hydrocyanic acid, etc., without any evil effect. There are also cases of swallowing nails, glass, etc.
Disciple: I wonder how the scientists would explain all this. Once they were invited to a demonstration but they refused to attend.
Disciple: They can't attend, for fear of their convictions being shaken.
Disciple: These Hathayogis must know some process of preventing absorption of these poisons.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they have the power to stop the action of the poisons and to eliminate them. They have to throw it out by some process immediately after the demonstration.
Disciple: Perhaps you know that the Royal Society of Science refused permission to Sir William Crooks who wanted to demonstrate the reality of mediumistic phenomena.
Sri Aurobindo: The same thing happened in Germany. In one village [Alberfeltz] there was a man who used to train horses to do mathematical sums. He invited the scientists. Not only did they refuse to believe it, they complained to the Government that it should be stopped because the trainer was following a scientifically unorthodox method.
Disciple: Maurice Maeterlinck went to see it and said that he himself did not believe it before he saw it. He examined the animals by giving his own figures and the answers given by the horses were correct. [Ref. his book 'L'hôte inconnu'.]
Sri Aurobindo: They say animals can't think or reason. It is not true. Their intelligence has been made to act in the narrow limits of life, according to their needs. So these faculties have not been developed, thats all.
The cats have a language of their own. They utter different kinds of mews for different purposes; for instance, when the mother leaves her kittens behind a box and mews in a particular tone and rhythm, the kittens understand that they are not to move from there till she comes back and repeats that mew. It is through tone and rhythm that they express themselves.
Even the donkey who is supposed to be very stupid is unusually clever. Some horses and donkeys were confined together within an enclosure and the gate was closed to find out if they could get out. It was found that while the horses were helpless, it was a donkey that by turning the latch opened the gate.
Why go so far? Even in our Ashram, the Mother's cat Chikoo was unusually clever. One day she was confined in a room and it was discovered that she was trying to open the window in exactly the same way as the Mother used to do. Evidently she had watched her doing it before.
We had a dog, a bitch, left by somebody in the first house we rented. There was a room upstairs with glass windows and a bathroom at one extremity. One day she found herself locked out. She tried all sorts of things to enter the room but could not as the door and the windows were closed. When all attempts failed, she sat down in front of a window and began to think, "How to get in ?" The way she sat and the attitude of her sitting showed clearly that she was thinking. Then suddenly she got up as if saying, "Ah, there's the bathroom door! Let me try it." She went in that direction; the door was open and she got in.
It is the Europeans who make a big difference between man and animal. The only difference is animals can't form a concept, can't read or write or philosophise. (Laughter)
Disciple: But they can't do yoga.
Sri Aurobindo: Idon't know that. Once, while the Mother and myself were meditating a cat happened to be present. We found that she was getting queer and was getting into trance and was almost on the point of death, but recovered. Evidently she was trying to receive something.
Disciple: Ramana Maharshi's cow, Laxmi, is said to bow down to him. She is supposed to have been a disciple in her previous life and was attached to him.
Disciple ( referring to the practice of milking cows by beguiling them with dummy calves) : You say animals are intelligent, but this does not show that.
Sri Aurobindo: All men too are not intelligent!
( Someone said Gandhi severely condemned this practice saying that drinking cow's milk is equal to drinking the calf's blood, for it starves the calf)
Disciple: But he himself drinks goat's milk!
Sri Aurobindo: It is like going in trains and cars and yet condemning them.
Disciple: Vallabhbhai knows him very well. That is why he asked Gandhi not to come to Bardoli at all when the Satyagraha campaign was started there with Vallabhbhai in full command.
Sri Aurobindo: He feared Gandhi would stop the movement if it didn't conform strictly to his principles.
( The talk turned to the Rajkot affair. P related the substance of the correspondence between the Thakore and Patel, and the instrumentation of the Dewan and others in helping the Thakore to retract from the agreed terms. Then he recounted the story of the suicide of Ranjit Singh who was insulted by the Viceroy in the Chamber of Princes.)
Sri Aurobindo: When is the Government going to inaugurate the Federation?
Disciple: Early part of 1940. That is why they are trying their best to bring the Congress into the settlement.
Sri Aurobindo: That is too early. They have hardly a year and within such a short period they have to rope in the Princes and come to terms with the Congress.
Disciple: Congress can prevent the federation by refusing to send its representative. And if the States join it can take up the Federation, as there will be only the Muslim minority to deal with. Bhulabhai Desai went to England so many times with the ostensive reason of health but really, it seems, to discuss the Federation problem. He likes to remain behind the scene.
Sri Aurobindo: I also like to work from behind; I sympathise with him. But the Nizam won't give in so easily. If the major States come in, the small ones don't matter.
Disciple: Vallabhbhai is trying to appeal to the Gaekwad, telling him that he (the Gaekwad) was the first to think of self-government and has always been thinking of advancing political life, etc.
Sri Aurobindo: He will think for thirty years more before he gives in. But who knows, he may give in. Since he is old he may take the glory and give the legacy of trouble to his successor.
Disciple: The States have tried more than once to come together and act in concert but haven't been able to do it yet. Patiala and Bikaner tried separately but don't seem to have succeeded.
29 JANUARY 1939
Sri Aurobindo (to P) : Have you read the report of Hitler's interview with Colonel Beck in the Sunday Times?
Disciple: No. What is it about?
Disciple: Shouting at each other?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. It is said that when Hitler begins to shout his eyes become glassy and it means disaster. But in this interview when he began to shout and his eyes turned glassy, Beck began to shout louder. Hitler was much surprised to find this unexpected response and himself toned down.
Disciple: In the end he has met his match!
Disciple: And what was the result of the interview?
Sri Aurobindo: Relations with Poland were not much improved, I suppose.
Have you seen Subhas's statement?
Disciple: Yes, it seems unfortunate that at this time the Congress should be divided.
Sri Aurobindo: Quite so. Whenever he has been in authority there has been trouble. The Congress split in Bengal came in his time. He seems to be a mere intellectual without grasp of the realities. He talks of India exerting international influence! You are not even a nation and you talk of being international! You have to be first independent. Even in a small affair like the China-Japanese war, what you have been able to do is to send an ambulance unit.
Disciple: Our A who was in Bengal politics does not have a very high opinion of Bose. He says, he is a good lieutenant but can't be a great leader.
Sri Aurobindo: That has been my impression all along.
Disciple: It seems as if what he is doing is more for ambition and power and egoism.
Disciple: And all the talk about influencing the voters is meaningless. They are all trying to influence the voters to their side.
Sri Aurobindo: Quite so. He says he stands for principles, but all the time he is indirectly saying, "Vote for me."
Disciple: But he is very sincere and honest.
Disciple: Many leaders are that.
Disciple: Not in Bengal — they are almost all dishonest.
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean by sincerity? Ready to suffer for the cause, and to accept no bribe, is it not? But even during our Swadeshi movement, though the leaders were egoistic and quarrelsome, they were honest and sincere. Our fight was over principles, reform or revolution, or as someone put it, colonial self-government or Independence. We never fought on personal grounds as you now find between Bose and Sen Gupta or Khare and Shukla. You know what Das said about politicians? He said that in his whole legal career he had not met worse types of criminals than in politics.
Disciple: But if Bose sincerely believes that the Congress is going to compromise with the Government on Federation, is he not justified in fighting for that in the Congress? He says that some suspicious negotiations seem to be going on behind the scenes.
Sri Aurobindo: But what is there objectionable in negotiations? Every country and every big party has to do it. The Germans before and during the war were doing it. Negotiation does not mean acceptance. There is no harm in seeing how far the other party will go in granting concessions, rights and privileges.
Disciple: When Nehru visited Nahas Pasha in Egypt, Nahas said that their Wafd party had become demoralised after accepting office and now they are defeated. He wondered how the Congress ministers have remained pure after accepting office. Nehru explained to him about the Parliamentary Board which acts as a check on the Ministers. The Board has no administrative powers and Ministers are not members of the Board.
Sri Aurobindo: I was surprised to hear about the dissolution of the Wafd party and wondered what it might have been due to; so that was the cause then. But then they ought to have turned out the king, as Kamal did in Turkey. The present king is following the policy of his father. So, instead of quarrelling among themselves they should have — now that they have power — tried to build up their nation first, by giving people education and training. Secondly, by increasing the wealth, and lastly, by building up military power. The same thing should be done in India by the Congress ministry.
Disciple: What sort of education? Technical?
Sri Aurobindo: Technical, agricultural and other. Without properly educated and trained people, how will they develop industries etc.? India is such a vast country that she can produce all her own necessary things. External trade is not necessary at the beginning. That is what the U.S.A. did. She developed first her internal trade to meet all the necessities of her own people; and when by that means she had increased her wealth she began to develop external trade. The government should have a plan for the economic survey of the provinces to see what are the products necessary for consumption in India.
Disciple: That is one good thing Bose has done; he has organised an economic planning committee.
Sri Aurobindo: But they must not neglect secondary education. You can't have efficient people without education. It creates common interest and a basis of common understanding. I don't mean the present form of education — that is not at all suitable for building a nation, it has to be radically changed. Indian boys are more intelligent than English boys but three-fourths of their talent and energy are wasted, while the English boys use their talent ten times better than the Indian because of the training and equipment.
Disciple: The Bombay Premier has approached the merchants for donations to his government as there is a substantial loss of revenue due to prohibition. He told them that if they didn't donate, new taxation would have to be levied.
Sri Aurobindo: It is better not to destroy the capitalist class as the socialists want to. They are the source of national wealth. They should be encouraged to spend for the nation. Taxing is all right, but you must increase production, start new industries, and raise the standard of living. Without all that, if you merely increase the taxes there will be a state of depression. Other nations can tax enormously because they produce also on a large scale.
Disciple: Kher is now opening agricultural schools in villages and cottage industry schools — that is to say, carrying out the Wardha Scheme.
Sri Aurobindo: It is a pity to give up all that work for merely fighting the idea of Federation. You can fight it even after the Federation is established. One has to accept what one gets and on that basis work out the rest. If the British Government finds that the Federation is perfectly worked out, it may not object to give more. They expect a crowd of demagogues shouting together in the Assembly, not people capable of governing. But if Socialism comes that might frighten them.
Disciple: The present governor of Bombay seems to be sympathetic to Kher's cabinet.
Sri Aurobindo: The English people have a constitutional temperament, except of course, a few autocrats like Curzon. They will be violently opposed to their being kicked out, but they don't object to their being gently shouldered out as they have been in the Dominions. The Dominions are practically independent. The British will be quite content if they get India's help in case of an international war. But these declarations of anti-imperialist policy and "no compromise" etc., will tend to stiffen their attitude. What is the use of declaring your policy in advance? Even as regards the Princes one must not be too exacting in one's demands. They won't tolerate the idea of reducing them to mere figureheads from the very beginning.
Disciple: Vallabhbhai is a very capable man, but he is not liked even by his own colleagues.
Sri Aurobindo: He may not seem to be a very likable person. But if one has sincerity and capacity that is enough in politics.
Vithalbhai seems more pleasant. He is more of a statesman and he has done work in the Council.
***
DECEMBER 1938 FEBRUARY-MAY 1939
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