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Instances, Classes, See Also, Object in Names
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object:2.17 - December 1938
book class:Evening Talks With Sri Aurobindo
author class:A B Purani
subject class:Integral Yoga
class:chapter


DECEMBER 1938
DECEMBER 1938
10 DECEMBER 1938

Disciple: Why did you choose Pondicherry as the place for your Sadhana?

Sri Aurobindo: Because it was by an Adesh — a command from Above — I was asked to come here.

When I left Bombay for Calcutta I had asked Lele what I should do regarding my Sadhana. He kept silent for some time and replied, "Meditate at a fixed time and hear the voice in the heart." I did not hear the voice from the heart, but a different voice, and I dropped meditation at a fixed time because meditation was going on all the time. When Lele came to Calcutta and heard about it, he said that the Devil had caught hold of me. I said, "If it is the Devil, I will follow him."

Disciple: People say that Yogic Sādhan was written by the spirit of Keshab Sen?

Sri Aurobindo: Keshab Sen? When I was writing it, every time at the beginning and at the end the image of Ram Mohan Roy came before me. So perhaps, Ram Mohan has been changed to Keshab Sen.

Do you know the origin of the name Uttara Yogi?

Disciple: No, Sir.

Sri Aurobindo: There was a famous Yogi in the South who while dying said to his disciples that a Purna Yogi from the North would come down to the South and he would be known by his three sayings. The three sayings were those I had written to my wife. A Zamindar disciple of that Yogi found me out and bore the cost of the book Yogic Sādhan.

Disciple: Tagore never spoke at any time about Ramakrishna and Vivekananda except recently when he wrote a very ordinary poem on Ramakrishna during his centenary. He used to tell girls that Ramakrishna used very often to deride women saying kāmini kānchan are the roots of bondage and still women worshipped him.

Sri Aurobindo: I understand that Ramakrishna used to say kāma kānchan. When the division came after his death one party said that he never uttered Kamini but Kama.

I don't think there was anyone in Brahmo Samaj with spiritual realization. Dwijendra Nath had something in him and Shiva Nath Shastri too, and perhaps Keshab Sen. Bejoy Goswami ceased to be a Brahmo.

Disciple: Lele had realization?

Sri Aurobindo: Of course, he had some, but as Isaid he had ambition and ego.

Disciple: It is said that Christ used to heal simply by a touch. Is it possible?

Sri Aurobindo: Why not? There are many instances of such cures; of course, faith is necessary. Christ himself said, "Thy faith has made thee whole."

Disciple: Is faith always necessary for such a cure?

Sri Aurobindo: No, cure can be done without faith, especially when one does not know what is being done. Faith is above the mind so that any discussion or dispute spoils the action of the faith.

Disciple: I knew also such instances of cure or help by faith. When I came to see you first, you told me to remember you in my difficulties. After I returned I did so and I passed through all the difficulties, but as soon as I came here I heard many things from sadhaks and did not get the same result. I thought, perhaps, I was not able to open myself to you.

Sri Aurobindo: That is called simple faith, or as some call it, 'blind faith'. When Ramakrishna was asked about faith, he said, "All faith is blind otherwise there is no faith." He was quite right.

Disciple: Is it because there is something in the nature of environmental influence that doubt comes or because one does not get the same result as before?

Sri Aurobindo: Both. The physical mind has these things — doubt, etc. — and they come up at one time or another. And by contact with other people also faith gets obscured. I know a shocking instance in the Ashram. A truthful man came here. A sadhak told him that speaking the truth always is a superstition. One must be free to say what one likes. And then there is another instance of a sadhak who said that sex-indulgence is no hindrance to Yoga, it can be allowed and everyone must have his Shakti. When such ideas are prevalent no wonder that they cast a bad influence on others.

Disciple: Such people ought to be quarantined.

Sri Aurobindo: I thought of that but it is not possible. Mother at one time tried to impose some restrictions and regulations but it did not work. One has to change from within. There are, of course, other yogic systems which have such strict regulations. Buddhism is unique in that respect. There is a monastic school in France — La Trappe — which enjoins strict silence.

Disciple: Is such exterior imposition good?

Sri Aurobindo: It can be good provided one sincerely keeps to it. For instance, in that monastery in France, people who enter there know what they want and so keep to the regulations that are meant to help them in achieving their aim.

The world has to change — people here are epitomes of the world. Each one represents a type of humanity and if one type is conquered that means a great victory for the work. And for this change a constant will is required. If that is there, lots of things can be done for the sadhaks as they were done before.

Disciple: Things became sluggish afterwards.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is when the Sadhana came down into the physical and the subconscient that things became very difficult. I myself had to struggle for two years; for the subconscient is absolutely inert, like a stone. Though my mind was quite awake above, it could not exert and influence down below. It is a Herculean labour, for when one enters there, it is a sort of unexplored continent. Previous Yogis came down to the vital. If I had been made to see it before, probably, I would have been less enthusiastic about it. That is an instance of blind faith! The ancients were quite right perhaps in leaving out the physical, but if I had left off there, the real work would have remained undone. And once the physical is conquered, it becomes easy for people who come after me, which is what is meant by "realization of one in all".

Disciple: Then we can wait for that victory!

Sri Aurobindo: You want an easy path!

Disciple: Not only easy but like a baby we want to be carried about. Is it possible?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, but one has to be a baby — and a genuine baby.

Disciple: Ramakrishna has said a Yogi need not be always like a drawn sword.

Sri Aurobindo: When did he say that and what did he mean by that? A Yogi has always to be vigilant, especially in the early part of ones sadhana. Otherwise all one has gained can come down with a thud. People here usually don't make Sadhana the sole preoccupation of their life. They have two parts: one, the internal and the other the external, which goes on with ordinary movements, social contacts, etc. Sadhana must be made the one central thing.

Disciple: You spoke about the brilliant period of the Ashram.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it was when Sadhana was going on in the vital and when it is that, everything is joy, peace, etc. and if we had stopped there, we could have started a big religion, or something like it. But the real work would have been left undone.

Disciple: Why did you retire? To concentrate more on your work?

Sri Aurobindo: No, to withdraw from the physical atmosphere. If I had to do the work the Mother is doing, I would have hardly time to do my own work; besides its becoming a tremendous labour.

Disciple: Vishuddhananda of Benaras is said to be able to produce all sorts of perfumes, scents, etc. for which he is known as gundhibābā.

Sri Aurobindo: It is difficult to know if they are all materialisations or subtle perfumes projected into the physical or on the senses.

Paul Brunton saw always some pressure accompanying him. When he saw my photo, it had nothing to resemble it but when he saw me at the Darshan, he at once recognized me as that pressure.

Disciple: Why does one rise and fall physically during meditation?

Sri Aurobindo: It is not the physical but the vital body separating itself from the body. At one time I thought physical Siddhi was impossible. But in Alipore jail, once I found that my body had occupied a position which it was physically impossible to have. Then again, I was practising to raise my hands and keep them suspended without any muscular control. Once in that raised condition of hands I fell off to sleep. The warder saw this condition and reported that I had died. Authorities came and found me quite alive. I told them he was a fool.

There is a French author Jules Romain. He is a medical man and a mystic. He can see with other parts of the body with eyes closed. He says, "Eyes are only a specialised organ." Other parts can as well be trained to see. But scientists refused to admit his demonstration.

Disciple: Ramana Maharshi does not believe in the descent of the Supermind.

Sri Aurobindo: It — the descent — is the experience of many sadhaks even outside our Yoga. An old sannyasi of the Ramakrishna Mission saw a flood of light descending and when he asked about it he was told it was all the work of the Devil and the whole experience stopped afterwards.

In Maharshi s case he has received the Power in the heart and has worked with it, so he does not feel the descent.

Disciple: I believe that Grace is without condition.

Sri Aurobindo: That may be true from the side of the Divine but the man must try to fulfil the condition under which alone Grace can act.

( At this pointy a disciple quoted a sentence from Sri Aurobindo's The Mother: " The supreme Grace will act only in the conditions of the Light and the Truth; it will not act in conditions laid upon it by the Falsehood and the Ignorance.")

Disciple: Grace is grace; but one need not sit with folded hands. What is achieved is by the Divine Grace.

Sri Aurobindo: Grace is of course unconditional, but it is for men to fulfil the conditions. It is as if man was continually spilling from a cup in which something was being poured.
11 DECEMBER 1938

The talk turned to some people who had been asked to leave the Ashram for certain misdeeds. Now they were spreading calumnies against Sri Aurobindo and the Mother.

Disciple: Is there no justice for the misdeeds of people like S, V and N? Surely they will have to bear the consequences of their actions? And yet how is it these people succeed in life?

Sri Aurobindo: Justice in this life? Maybe not. Most probably not. But justice is not what most people believe it to be. It is said that virtuous people will have happiness, prosperity, etc., in another life while in this life they have the opposite effects. In that case, the people you speak of must have been virtuous in their previous life. There is justice in the sense that the virtuous and pious people advance towards Sattwic nature while the contrary ones go down the scale of humanity and become more and more Asuric. That is what I have said in the Arya.

At this moment Mother came in and asked what was the subject of talk.

Sri Aurobindo: X was asking about justice — whether it exists.

Mother (after apause) : Of course, there is justice. These people suffer, they are tormented and not happy within.

Disciple: But that unhappiness does not seem to change them; they go from worse to worse!

Mother: Yes, but in some cases as the divine Pressure goes on acting, at some time, especially during an impending catastrophe, suddenly a change takes place in these people. We have seen a number of people like that. For example, among those who were trying to persecute Sri Aurobindo when he first came here...

Sri Aurobindo: N may be a scoundrel, but he has capacity and cleverness and so he will surely succeed in life. It is that capacity and cleverness that succeed in life, not virtues, etc.

Disciple: To cheat people and get money — is it cleverness?

Sri Aurobindo: Of course it is cleverness; or, you may say, a misuse of cleverness. I don't say that this cleverness will not have its consequences, but at the same time, it is these qualities that succeed in life.

Disciple (to the Mother) : You have said in your Prayers that justice exists. One cannot avoid the law of Karma except by Divine Grace.

Disciple: Why does not one believe in Grace?

Mother: It is because the human mind arranges and combines things and does not leave any room for the Grace. For instance, when one is cured of a disease or passes an examination, he thinks it is due to medicine or some chance. He does not see that in between, or behind, there may be Grace acting on him. (Turning to Sri Aurobindo) Is it not so?

Sri Aurobindo: They would call it luck. (Laughter)

Mother: If you don't recognize the Grace how can it work? It is as if you had shut your doors against it. Of course, it can work below, underneath, so to say.

Disciple: Doesn't it act unconditionally?

Mother: It does, especially in those people who have been predestined for something; but if one recognizes and expresses gratitude, it acts more forcefully and quickly.

Disciple: Isn't it because we are ignorant?

Mother: No, Iknow many ignorant people having the Grace expressing a deep gratitude rising from the heart.

Disciple: We would like the Grace to act like a mother feeding a hungry baby, giving things when it needs, etc.

Sri Aurobindo: And who is the baby? (Loud laughter)

Mother: But the Grace does not work according to human demands or conceptions. How can it? It has its own law and way. Very often what seems to be a great blow or calamity at the present moment may appear to be a great blessing after ten years and people say that their real life began after that.

Sri Aurobindo: Grace is unconditional but at the same time, how will it work if a man is throwing away the Grace, or does not recognize it? It is like a man continually spilling from the cup in which something is being poured.

Mother: I am interested to see the reactions in the two fellows. It may have different results in both. I can't say now how it will be different.

Disciple: Will it be a difference of degree?

Mother: No, difference of quality also. One is more stupid and blind than the other who knows consciously what he is aiming at. So the former has less power to harm.

Disciple: Perhaps one may change for the better in this life?

Mother: That is romance.

Disciple: Especially, S may return to the Ashram again.

Mother (looking very amused) : Do you think so? When a man turns his back he has no chance, no possibility. One who is given a chance may have a possibility.

( With these words the Mother left for the collective meditation downstairs.)

Disciple: The law of Karma according to Jainism is inexorable. Even the Tirthankars can't escape it, and have to pay in exact mathematical proportion.

Sri Aurobindo: It is a great thing, but too wonderful and mathematical to be true; e.g., a son who lived for a short time cost his father a great deal of money for his ill-health. It was said that the father had been a debtor to the son in a previous life and the son — by means of his illness — realised the exact amount of money that he had lent his father and then died. (Laughter)

Disciple: There is what is called Nikachit Karma or Utkata Karma which cannot be avoided. It is like a knot that cannot be untied — like a silk thread tied into a knot and burnt.

Sri Aurobindo: So it may be this Utkata Karma that brought about the accident [to Sri Aurobindo's leg]!

Disciple: What is incomprehensible is the unmerited suffering of the physical consciousness in your case.

Sri Aurobindo: How do you know it is unmerited ? Perhaps it was to give me knowledge of what intense pain is. I had ordinary pains before which I could turn into Ananda. But this was intense. I never had the experience and when it came suddenly and abruptly, I could not change it into Ananda. When it became of a steady nature I could. Besides, we shall see afterwards the full significance. Of course, I accept it as a part of the battle.

Disciple: When will you be cured?

Sri Aurobindo: Don't ask me that question. It is just what I can't know, for, immediately I say something, the hostile forces would at once rush to prevent it. That is why I don't want to prophesy. Not that things are not known, or possibilities not seen. For instance, there are things about which I have definitely said. But where it is a question of possibilities, I don't tie myself to that chain of possibilities. For if I do that I commit myself in advance to certain lines of movement and the result of it may not be what I want, and I won't be able to bring down that for which I am striving — it may not be the highest but only something partial.

But plenty of people can prophesy. That capacity is common among Yogis. When I was arrested, my maternal grand-aunt asked Swami Bhaskaranand, "What will happen to our Aurobindo?" He replied, "The Divine Mother has taken him in her arms; nothing will happen to him. But he is not your Aurobindo. He is the world's Aurobindo and the world will be filled with his perfume." Another time I was taken by Jatin Banerji to a Swami Narayan Jyotishi who foretold about my three trials, white enemies and also my release. When my horoscope was shown he said that there was some mistake about time and when the time was corrected he replied, "Oh, the lead is turned into gold now."

(Turning to X) Have you had any prophecy in dreams? Many people get dreams or visions of coming events.

Disciple: I know the instance of A's daughter-in-law who saw him carried to the cemetery and exactly two hours later he died of heart failure.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, that is a good instance.

Disciple: Even without knowing the person concerned can one prophesy like that, i.e., like Bhaskaranand?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is an intuitive power. Ionce tried to see a man who was to be elected and saw a figure seated in the office but quite different and unknown, not the one elected. After some time a quarrel took place between my brother-in-law Saurin Bose and a government official and he was called. But by mistake "Bose" became "Ghose", and I had to go and see the man. I found the same man of my vision sitting as the Governor and I was much surprised.

On another occasion V. Ramaswamy Aiyangar, a friend of Z, was coming to see me and I wanted to have a vision of the man. I saw him as having a clean-shaven head, a bull-dog face; but when he came, I found his appearance quite different, regular South Indian Brahmin features. But curiously enough, exactly after one year I saw that he had changed to what I had seen of him in vision. These things are thrown out from the subtle world to the surface consciousness.

There is another instance. I was a great tea addict and could not do any work without a cup of tea. The management of tea was in charge of Saurin. He used to bring the tea at any time he woke up from sleep. One day, though, I had much work to do. I was thinking, "When will he bring tea? Why does he not come?"

I had made a rule never to ask anything from anybody. Suddenly a parucular time appeared on the wall in front of me. And — I looked at the watch — it was at that very moment that the tea was brought!

Disciple: Is consciousness of the Divine possible in the physical cells even?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, the cells can have peace, joy, etc., and when they are quite conscious, they can throw out the opposing forces. When peace descends in the physical it is a great force for cure.

Disciple: Can one have peace without knowing it?

Sri Aurobindo: That is natural peace which is more than quietude. But there is a positive peace which one knows and feels. Truth also can descend into the physical, and also Power, but very few can bear Power. Light also descends. I remember a disciple telling his Guru about the descent of Light in himself. The Guru said, "The devil has caught hold of you." And from that time the disciple lost everything.

There is an infinite sea of peace, Ananda, above the head. If one is in contact with it one can get these things always.

Disciple: Do any thoughts or suggestions come to you?

Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean? Thoughts and suggestions come to me from every side and I don't refuse them. I accept them and see what they are. But what you call 'thinking', that I never do. Thinking in that sense ceased long ago — since I had that experience with Lele. Thoughts, as I said, come to me from all sides and from above and the transmitting mind remains quiet, or it enlarges to receive them. True thoughts come in this way. You can't think out such thoughts, what Mother calls "mental constructions".

Disciple: Was Arya written in that way?

Sri Aurobindo: No, it was directly transmitted into the pen. It is a great relief to get out of that responsibility.

Disciple: Oh yes, Sir!

Sri Aurobindo: I don't mean responsibility in general but that of thinking about everything. Some thoughts are given or reflected from above. It is not that I don't ask for knowledge. When I want knowledge I call for it. The higher faculty sees thoughts as if written on a wall.
12 DECEMBER 1938

The Mother was present and Dr. Manilal put the following question to her.

Disciple: Is it a sin to kill scorpions, bugs and mosquitoes?

Mother (smiling) : Ask Sri Aurobindo. When I first came here I used to drive mosquitoes away by yogic force. Sri Aurobindo did not approve of it.

Sri Aurobindo: Because one is making friendship with them in that way.

But what is the sin there? If you don't kill them they will go and bite some other people and won't that be a sin committed by you?

Disciple: But they have life, Sir!

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they have.

Disciple: And if one kills them?

Sri Aurobindo: Well, what happens?

Disciple: He will be liable to sin, of course. I don't mean we don't kill at all; for instance, when we are breathing in micro-organisms.

Mother: The doctors don't kill?

Disciple: Yes, Mother. But I mean that killing is not intentional.

Disciple: It is said that the Jains hire people to feed bugs!

Disciple: No. That is only a story.

Sri Aurobindo: At any rate, I know of a story in history. When Mahmud of Ghazni invaded India he defeated a Jain king through the help of that king's brother. The dethroned king was left in charge of his brother, who was now the king. He did not know what to do with his prisoner; so, he dug a pit below his throne and threw him in it and closed it up. As a result he died; so the brother did not kill him! (Laughter)

Mother: Then, in order to be a true Jain, one must be a yogi and then with yogic power he can deal with these animals and insects.

Disciple: Is one justified in killing snakes and scorpions?

Sri Aurobindo: Why not? One must kill in self-defence. Idon't mean that you must hunt out the snakes and kill them. But when you see that they are endangering your life or others' lives, then you have every right to kill them.

Mother: The plants also have life. So, you mean to say that the mosquito is more precious than the rose? You don't know perhaps how the plants feel.

Disciple: There are people who say that killing a dog ora cat is not so sinful as killing a man.

Sri Aurobindo: Life is life — whether in a cat, or dog or man. There is no difference there between a cat or a man. The idea of difference is a human conception for man's own advantage perhaps.

The Mother now departed. Then the topic of homeopathy came up. It was said that it has cures even for religious depression, and anger also.

Sri Aurobindo: Anger, the scientists say, is due to the secretions of glands — even love. But (half-smiling) can egoism be cured like that?

Disciple: If it can be cured, I would be the first to apply for it.

Disciple: The fact that you are conscious about the ego makes half the cure. (To Sri Aurobindo) Is it not so?

Sri Aurobindo: Not necessarily. But it is the first step.

Disciple: And what is the second?

Sri Aurobindo: To detach oneself from all these things. To think as if all these things belong to the outer being, or someone else. As one goes on doing this the Purusha gradually withdraws its sanction from the Prakriti and Prakriti loosens its hold over nature till a spiritual control takes place. But if one associates oneself with the Prakriti then the Purusha becomes a slave to it. Rejection, of course, is the stronger way. One has to reject these things before they enter, as I did the thoughts. It is more powerful and the result also is quick.

There is also a mental control; but there too it is the nature of Mind trying to control the nature of the Vital. It has only a temporary and partial control. The thing is rather suppressed within and can come out at any opportunity.

I heard of a Yogi in Benares bathing in one of the ghats. In the neighbouring ghat a beautiful Kashmiri woman came to bathe. As soon as he saw her he fell upon her and tried to outrage her. That is evidently a case of mental control.

But by Yoga sometimes things which have not been there before come up. I have heard about it from many persons. In my case, I saw anger coming up and possessing me. It was absolutely uncontrollable when it came. I was very much surprised to see it in my nature. Anger has always been foreign to me.

At another rime, when I was an undertrial prisoner at Alipore Jail, a terrible catastrophe was avoided. Prisoners had to wait outside for sometime before entering the cells. While we were waiting the Scottish warder came and gave me a push. The young men around me became very excited, and I did nothing but gave him such a look that he immediately fled and called the Jailer. It was a communicative anger and all the young men rallied round to attack him. When the Jailer, who was rather a religious man, arrived, the warder said I had given him "a subordinate look". The Jailer asked me and I told him that I have never been used to such treatment. He pacified the whole group and said while going, "We have all to bear our cross."

But by that anger, such as I had, I don t mean the Rudrabhāva, — that I have experienced a few times.

Disciple: Is Rudrabhava something like Ramakrishna's story about the snake, where anger is to be shown without really feeling it?

Sri Aurobindo: Not at all. It is something genuine — a violent severity against something very wrong, e.g., the Rudrabhava of Shiva. Anger one knows by its feeling and sensation. It rises from below, while Rudrabhava rises from the heart. I will give you an instance. Once X became very violent against the Mother and was shouting and shaking his fists at her. When I heard the shouting, a violent severity came down that was absolutely uncontrollable.

I went out and said: "Who is shouting at the Mother? Who is shouting here?" As soon as he heard it he became very quiet.

Disciple: I heard X had a very violent temper.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. He was otherwise an earnest sadhak, became conscious of many things and made progress. But these fits used to come to him now and then. Some Asuric forces used to catch hold of him and he could not control himself. It is these forces that have caused his failure in the Yoga, for I hear he does not have these attacks now outside. When under their grip he could not see that he was in the wrong. He blamed me and the Mother, though we had been very lenient and considerate to him. After sometime he was able to recognise his fault, admit it and promise that he would not do it again. But again he would be swept away by the forces. Sometimes his vanity and self-respect would come in the way of his admitting the fault immediately. That is the mistake. One must not justify ones wrong-doing. If one does that, it comes again and makes it more difficult to get rid of it.

Disciple: Y, after doing so much Tapasya, is thinking of leaving the Ashram, and that too after twelve years of stay!

Sri Aurobindo: What Tapasya? If complete control over things was given to him he would have stayed perhaps.

Disciple: He says he is helping the Mother in the work.

Sri** Aurobindo:** Helping only? I thought he was conducting the Ashram! (Laughter)

Disciple: But these kinds of people, will they ever realise the Divine?

Sri Aurobindo: Everyone will arrive at the Divine. A once asked the Mother if he will realise God. Mother replied that he will, unless he did something idiotic and cut short his life, and that is what he almost did!
13 DECEMBER 1938

Mother came at 5-55 and meditated till after 7-05. It is difficult to say whether the feast of silent meditation was more precious than the conversation which happened to take place after Mother left for the evening meditation.

Sri Aurobindo ( with a smile to X) : Meditating?

Disciple: I am trying hard Sir, for the last three-fourths of an hour but have not succeded. Many unwanted thoughts come.

Sri Aurobindo: What are they?

Disciple: Some nonsense.

Sri Aurobindo: Some extraordinary non-sense like perpetual attendance on the Maharaja or of the likely successor to Mussolini?

Disciple: No, Sir. The thought of the Maharaja comes very rarely. But why doesn't one succeed in meditating even after trying so much? The last time I had a fine meditation was when Dr. R came from Madras. But I see my friend N at once bends his head down and I believe he is merged in Sachchidananda.

Disciple: Yes, in despair; perhaps I go to sleep.

Sri Aurobindo: But there is a look of deep concentration on your face. (Laughter)

Disciple: Can one go to sleep in despair?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, as an escape out of the despair. Apart from that, it happens to everybody, except for yogis who have made it their business to meditate. And even they find there are periods of blankness when nothing seems to be done or going on.

Disciple: As he is a poet he may be living in higher regions.

Sri Aurobindo: You must not forget Shakespeare's saying that "All poetry is telling lies." (Laughter)

Disciple: He is not a poet of that sort.

Disciple: Perhaps you had a dose of meditation last week which you are now assimilating; you are suffering from spiritual dyspepsia.

Disciple: But some people go into unconsciousness as soon as they begin meditation. For example R and C. Even P, when he used to join, became unconscious of the body.

Sri Aurobindo: Some yogis require a support to prevent their bodies from falling while they are in meditation. Those who practise Asanas can remain erect.

There are some who go to sleep standing like a horse. My grandfather, Rajnarayan Bose, was like that. One day we were walking together at night. Suddenly we missed him. When we came back we saw him sleeping standing.

Disciple: It is a question of habit and convenience, I think.

Disciple: Was Rajnarayan practising meditation?

Sri Aurobindo: Not much. It was a Brahmo-meditation. (Laughter)

Disciple: Sometimes meditation used to come to me spontaneously at my place and I used to get into a condition when I would be compelled to sit down to meditate.

Sri Aurobindo: It was probably the inner being insisting on it. It is always better to allow it to work.

Disciple: It used to happen even when I would be leaving for my work. For days I used to feel that my head was resting on the Mother's feet. What is that?

Sri Aurobindo: It was the experience of psychic Bhakti.

Disciple: But then it went away. How to retain that experience?

Sri Aurobindo: The condition is "to want that and nothing else". If you have that intense passion for union with the Divine then it can remain. It is too difficult, is it? So, it is better to allow the Higher Power to work.

Disciple: We tried hard to make him [Dr. M] stay here for three months but he is all the time thinking of his family.

Disciple: I felt a pull upward in the head while meditating.

Sri Aurobindo: It is the mind trying to ascend to the Higher Consciousness.

Disciple: Sometimes I feel myself widening.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, sometimes one feels the head opening or expanding. That is the sign of the mental being opening to the Power.

Disciple: Sometimes I see sky, ocean, or mountains and forests.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. One sees many things by the inner sight. These are symbols of life or energy. Sky is the symbol of the mind. Mountain is the symbol of the being with its different planes and parts with the Divine as the summit. Forests are symbols of the vital.

Disciple: These visions are seen by many, quite common.

Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes, as the mind expands so also the heart expands and also the vital. If one sees those things outside oneself then that has only symbolic significance but if one feels the widening or coming of Light in himself then that increases the opening and the receptivity of the being.

Disciple: What do you mean by the Divine or the Supreme?

Sri Aurobindo: I mean by it a Consciousness of which the Gita speaks as Param Bhavam, Purushottama, Parabrahman, Paramatman. That is to say, the origin and the support and cause of everything. It is Omnipotent and Omnipresent. You can't define it. You limit it if you define it. It can be described as Sachchidananda. It is everything, it is everywhere, it is in everything. It is impersonal, "Neti, Neti"; it is also "Iti, Iti". You can have the experience of Sachchidananda on any plane. These things cannot be known by the mind or by discussion. The Golden Lid has to be broken.

Disciple: What will happen if one realises the divine consciousness?

Sri Aurobindo: First thing, you will become calm and quiet. Secondly, there will be the feeling of strength, I mean the presence of a Force. Thirdly, the sense of the Infinite will be felt, you will feel yourself as the Infinite. Fourthly, something will be always there behind which will be able to govern the nature. Also the sense of Eternity and of yourself as immortal. Even though the body dies you know you are immortal. Also there are many things more. For example, freedom from everything, even from the world. You realise the Transcendental and the Universal consciousness.

Realisation of the fundamental Being may be the beginning, i.e., realisation of the essential Being, Consciousness and Delight. Then, everything is divine, you are divine, you live in the Divine; it is one of the most Anandamaya experiences. It is a concrete and real thing and not an idea. You cannot explain these things. You can't explain even a stone in spite of your science. Everything is not material but mystical at bottom.

Disciple: Is it that this experience formulates itself differently in different yogis to suit their personalities? or the difference is due to nature or personality itself?

Sri Aurobindo: There, personality is no longer separate. It is the One putting itself forward with a special quality, stress or emphasis. Nimbarka's Bhedabheda means that.

Disciple: You have also spoken of the veil in the heart.

Sri Aurobindo: It is also true. It sometimes requires removing the veil and breaking the wall in the heart. Sometimes after the experience of opening it seems to close again. Most of the obstruction comes from the vital. So, the being is prepared behind the veil and when everything is ready it is projected in the outer nature. But the demand in this Yoga is much more than in any other and so it takes a long time. All yoga requires patience above everything else.

Disciple: We must have been working for it for many lives.

Sri Aurobindo: According to some yogas you have no right to the result for twelve years. After twelve years you have to see if anything has happened or not.

Disciple: When the preparation is being done behind, can we say that some of the sadhaks have achieved very great advance like the Vedic Rishis?

Sri Aurobindo: How do you mean? Their outer nature is not ready and so they can't be said to have realised the Truth. Nature is full of difficulties and obstacles and so the Higher Power works behind. If it worked in the outer nature, it would meet too many obstacles.

Disciple: So it is the Bhedabheda philosophy?

Sri Aurobindo: It is not merely philosophy — the fact is there corresponding to the philosophy. The Gita speaks of it as avibhakaṁ ca bhūteṣu vibhaktamiva ca sthitaṁ — undivided in the midst of divided things, appearing as if divided. This is not an illusion. I see a tree: the tree appears to me as separate from me. But it is the One, because one with Him. It is myself. It is something else than a tree. It is impossible to think of it as something else than the Brahman. When I cast my eyes round the room everything — objects and persons — appears as the Brahman. I call you so and so but you are not that.

Ordinarily, one tags everything on to the 'ego'. But in that higher state you understand the divine working better than when you are a separate 'ego'. It is when you can become 'nobody' and have experience of the Divine that you can be free. That is Mukti. When I realized the One, my self disappeared. It is difficult to think of myself as so and so, son of so and so. It is a relief and freedom to be 'That' and to remain in 'It'.

Disciple: Can it be called Shankara's Vedantic realization?

Sri Aurobindo: About Shankara's Vedanta, the difficulty is that there are different explanations by various people. The world is an Illusion — and the Illusion is indescribable. This is the common basis of all Shankarite Adwaita. According to him, soul also is Maya, as it has no real existence.[1] But I found that the experience behind this idea is quite different. I had that experience at Baroda, and if I had stopped there I would have become an orthodox Vedantin.
14 DECEMBER 1938

Time: about 5-30 p.m. Silent atmosphere. X meditating, Y sitting by his side. Sri Aurobindo cast a glance at X. After a few minutes Y tried to kill a mosquito with a clapping of hands. Sri Aurobindo looked at Y. X opened his eyes. Y felt much embarrassed.

Disciple: Were you ever a freemason, Sir?

Sri Aurobindo: My eldest brother was; from him I gathered that it was nothing. But the Order of Freemasons had something when it was started. Have you heard of Cagliostro? He was a mystic and a freemason with a great prophetic power. He prophesied about the French Revolution, the razing of the Bastille and guillotining of the King and Queen. He used to prophesy about racehorses which got him into trouble and he was imprisoned and died in prison. He never charged any money from anyone and yet he was affluent. It was said he knew alchemy and could make gold.

( There was a few minutes of silence)

Have you heard about Nostradamus? No? He was a Jew. At that time Jews had great knowledge. He wrote a book of prophecy in some obscure language and prophesied about the execution of Charles I, the end of the British Empire and the lasting of the Empire for about 330 years.

Disciple: Then there is still a long time before it goes?

Sri Aurobindo: No, it was to be counted from the beginning of her colonies. That means from James I. In that case it should end now.

Disciple: From Chamberlain's speech today it seems Britain is not obliged to side with France in case of war — it looks like it.

Sri Aurobindo: The English always keep their policy open so that they may change and correct as they like.

Disciple: But they cannot join Italy or Germany?

Sri Aurobindo: Why not? They can share with them France's African Colonies.

At this time Mother came. We looked towards her and changed our position from near Sri Aurobindo's head. She said, "Don't move, don't move."

Disciple: We have decided to meditate when you come.

( Mother made big eyes and we all laughed.)

Mother: But if I want to hear the talk?

Disciple: Then we will talk.

Sri Aurobindo (addressing the Mother) : I am giving him a few prophecies of Cagliostro and Nostradamus whom he has never read, he says.

Disciple: You know Bhikshu X was quite illogical; he called me back from here?

Sri Aurobindo: All preachers are illogical. Were you a fervent Buddhist? Is there much Buddhism in your parts of Bengal?

Disciple: About one or two million people are Buddhists and there is nothing of Buddhism in what they follow.

Mother: Nothing or something of Buddhism?

Disciple: Something.

Mother: In China and Japan also no real Buddhism is left. Only ceremonies remain. In Ceylon they say there is still some authentic Buddhism.

Disciple: In Burma also the same is the case. But the Burmese people do show a great respect for their Bhikshus.

Disciple: Yes, respect to the dress and not to the person.

Sri Aurobindo: Lele used to have the same idea. Once Imet a sannyasi with him. Lele asked me: "You don't bow down to him?" Ireplied: "Idon't believe in the man." Lele said: "But you must respect the yellow robe!"[2] (Laughter)

As Mother had gone into meditation we all tried to meditate with her. At about 7 p.m. she went for the group meditation and we rallied again round Sri Aurobindo.

Sri Aurobindo (addressing Y) : You seemed to have Ananda in your meditation. Your face is beaming with it.

Disciple: Yes, Sir. He is nowadays beaming with Ananda.

Disciple (shyly) : I fell into deep sleep I think. But I also had some visions which seemed to be quite distinctly outside me.

Sri Aurobindo: Then why do you call it sleep? It may be the psychic being, or the inner being watching what is happening. Sometimes one goes into a deeper state and remembers nothing in his outer consciousness, though many things may be going on within. What is called dreamless sleep is really a sleep in which dreams are passing on, only one does not know. Sometimes one discusses problems in such a condition, gets the ecstasy of union, etc. One may also go into other worlds with one part of his being and meet other forms, etc. This is of course the first condition and a kind of a beginning of Samadhi. From what you describe it may be the inner beings experience and not the psychic's. Even then, there is no doubt that your face is beaming with Ananda, seeing which I thought you went within.

Disciple: Can one get the diagnoses of diseases in such states?

Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes. Many people are said to have their problems solved in this way. I remember a peculiar experience of mine. As I was meditating I saw some writings crossing over my head, and then a blank. Then again these writings with a gap in the middle which meant that things were going on though I was not conscious of it.

(Turning to X): Now what about your meditation?

Disciple: Not successful, Sir.

Sri Aurobindo: How? I saw you going in and powerfully wrestling your way towards the Brahman. (Laughter)

Disciple: Plenty of thoughts invaded me. I tried to reject them and make myself empty.

Sri Aurobindo: The result was emptiness? (Laughter)

Disciple: But that is meditation, surely?

Disciple: No, no, it is not. I could not go into nothingness. I did not feel the Presence; was it meditation, Sir?

Sri Aurobindo: That is the beginning, the first condition. The mind must first be quiet for the other things to come down. But one must not dictate to meditation what it should be or should not be. One must accept whatever it brings.

Disciple: But was I right?

Sri Aurobindo: Right about what?

Disciple: That I was able to reject thoughts?

Sri Aurobindo (laughing) : How do I know? You are to say that. I was only making comments on your statement.

Disciple: You don't know? We consider you omniscient.

Sri Aurobindo: You don't expect me to know how many fish the fishermen here have caught, how much they have made out of it? People from Bombay used to ask me if the price of cotton would go up, about racehorses and about their lost children. What is the use of knowing all that? You know Ramakrishna's comment on a sannyasi crossing a river by occult power! He said it was a Siddhi worth half an anna!

Of course if necessary one can know these things, but I am not occupied with this sort of thing. I have left it to the Mother. She hears what is being said at a distance, meets sadhaks in subtle planes, talks to them, etc. She saw exactly what was going to happen in the recent European trouble. We know what we have to know for our work.

Disciple: What puzzles me is that you never told me when I asked about my diagnosis of a patient.

Sri Aurobindo: Why do you expect us to do your work?

Disciple: Oh, that is different. But you said you have no latent medico in you and hence you can't say. I thought you could say by your intuition.

Sri Aurobindo (addressing X) : I was telling you we know what we have got to know. But it is not always good to know. For instance, if I know a thing is going to happen I am bound to it, and even if it is not what I wanted, I have to accept it, and this prevents my having a greater or another possibility. So I want to keep myself free and deal with various possibilities. Below the Supermind everything is a question of possibilities; so if I keep myself free, I can accept or reject as I like. Destiny is not a thing fixed. It is just a complex of forces which can be changed.

Disciple: Without knowledge of the thing how shall one work? After knowing what is to happen cannot one reject it?

Sri Aurobindo: Knowledge comes by intuition. One can reject but the result is not sure though failure may show the way for later success.

Disciple (X) : You have said in an August 15th conversation that you have conquered death by natural process but you do not have complete control over accidents.

Sri Aurobindo: What exactly did I say?

Disciple (Y) : If I remember rightly, you wrote to me that diseases can't end your life but still you have little control over accidents.

Sri Aurobindo: Oh! Diseases usually run a long course so one has time to act on them, but if there is a disease suddenly of a severe nature that can end ones life immediately, then conquest is not possible. And about accidents, the body has its own consciousness and is always alert. But if the mind is occupied with other things, then an accident can take one unawares. As regards violence, e.g. of a riot, I would have to concentrate for four or five days to protect myself.

The hostile forces have tried many times to prevent the Darshan but I have succeeded in warding off all those attacks. This time I was more occupied with guarding the Mother and I forgot about myself. I did not think that they would attack me. That was my mistake. As regards the Ashram, I have been extremely successful but while I have tried to work in the world, results have been varied. In Spain, I was splendidly successful. General Miaja was an admirable instrument. Working of the Force depends on the instrument. Basque was a failure. Negrin was a good instrument but people around him, though good warriors, were too ill-organised and ill-equipped. Egypt was not successful. Ireland and Turkey were a tremendous success. In Ireland I have done exactly what I wanted to do in Bengal. Turks are a silent race.

Disciple: What do you think of the China-Japan war?

Sri Aurobindo: I don't think much of either party. They are like six and half-a-dozen. Both too much materialistic. But if I had to choose, I would side with Japan. Japan at one time had an ideal. Their powers of self-sacrifice, patriotism, self-abnegation and silence are remarkable. They would never lose temper in front of anybody. If their honour is injured they may stab, but they must not lose self-control. They worked so silently and secretly that no one knew anything about how they had prepared themselves before the Russo-Japanese war actually broke out. All on a sudden it broke out. They are Kshatriyas and their aesthetic sense is of course well known. But the European influence has spoiled all that. They are now very materialistic. How brutal they have become now; it is thoroughly un-Japanese.

Look at the Japanese soldier slapping the European officers — though they do deserve it; and the Japanese commander challenging Chiang-Kai-Shek to come out in the open field, and Japanese men attacking their political leaders — all this is inconceivable. This sort of swaggering is not at all Japanese. In old times, the Japanese, even while fighting, had perfect sympathy with those with whom they fought.

Disciple: But without brutalities (killing innocent inhabitants) it would be difficult to win the war.

Sri Aurobindo: God knows. They are such fine warriors and a patriotic and self-sacrificing nation that one would like to believe the contrary. But they are doing these things because of two reasons probably: financial shortage — which is not very convincing because of their immense power of sacrifice; and the vast population of China.

Disciple: And the foreign help to China, e.g. the Soviet?

Sri Aurobindo: That is a possibility but the Soviet Union's internal condition is such that it can't think of giving much help to others.

Disciple: What about India's independence? Is it developing along your lines?

Sri Aurobindo: Surely not! India is now going towards European Socialism which is dangerous for her; while we were trying to evolve the true genius of the race along Indian lines and all working for independence.

Take the Bengal [Swadeshi] movement. The whole race was awakened within a short time. People who were such cowards and trembled before the sight of a revolver were in a short period so much changed that police officials used to say "That insolent Barisal look". It was the soul of the race that woke up throwing up very fine personalities. The leaders of the movement were either yogis or disciples of yogis, e.g., Monoranjan Guha Thakurata was a disciple of Bejoy Goswami.

Disciple: Was he a nationalist?

Sri Aurobindo: Good Lord! He was my fellow-worker. He also took part in our secret society. Then there was Brahmo Bandhava Upadhyaya and others. Ramakrishna and Vivekananda's influence worked from behind. The movement with the secret society became so formidable that in any other country with a political past it would have led to something like the French Revolution. The sympathy of the whole race was on our side. Even shopkeepers were reading Yugantar. I will tell you an instance: when a young man was running away after killing a police officer in Shambazar, he forgot to throw away his revolver. It remained in his hand. One shopkeeper cried out: "Hide your revolver, hide your revolver."

And have you heard of Jatin Mukherjee's exploits?

Disciple: Yes, Sir.

Sri Aurobindo: A wonderful man. He was a man who would belong to the front rank of humanity. Such beauty and strength together I have not seen, and his stature was like that of a warrior.
15 DECEMBER 1938

Dr. Savour, a homeopath, had come. The Mother also came. N asked S how he knew his intuition in diagnosis and prescription was correct. S said as it was not obtained through logical reasoning, it had to be correct.

N (to Sri Aurobindo) : You told me R [the Ashram homeopath] uses mental intuition. So there must be various levels of intuition.

Sri Aurobindo: By mental intuition I mean the intuition which comes from Above but gets mixed with the mind. I don't say that mental intuition is not correct but it is always limited because of the mixture. There is also the vital intuition which very often becomes mixed up with one's desires.

Disciple: How to get true intuition By calmness of mind?

Sri Aurobindo: Calmness is not enough. Mind must be silent.

Disciple: It will then take a long time.

Sri Aurobindo: Can't say. Can take a short time, or a long time.

Disciple: But it won't be possible to keep the silence until one has realized the Spirit.

Sri Aurobindo: One can train one's mind to be silent.

Dr. S took leave. Then, as Mother went into meditation, we tried to do the same. By 7 p.m., after Mother had gone downstairs, we rallied round Sri Aurobindo who looked once or twice at M.

Disciple: M is beaming today.

Disciple: Could not meditate well, Sir, because I have lumbago but I felt some vibration at the back and felt happy.

Disciple: That must be Kundalini then.

Disciple: I don't believe it. Is this vibration the Higher Force, Sir?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. It was trying to cure your lumbago, perhaps, and the first sign was a little aggravation. (Laughter)

You don't believe in Kundalini?

Disciple: No, Sir.

Sri Aurobindo: But you were telling about your "ascent and descent" experience.

Disciple: Is that Kundalini? I did not know it. (Laughter) But Kundalini is not the line of our Yoga and you have not mentioned about it anywhere.

Disciple: Oh yes, he has in the Lights on Yoga.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. Kundalini is, of course, the Tantrik idea: the Shakti lying coiled in Muladhara awakes, rises up and carries the consciousness upward opening all the chakras up to Brahmarandhra and then meets the Brahman, and then the descent begins. The Tantrik process is more technical.

It is curious to see the action of the Force in some cases. Some feel as if a drilling were being done in the brain. Some people can't hold the Force in. They sway from side to side, make peculiar sounds. I remember a man practising Pranayama rigorously and making horrible sounds. I did not hear of his getting any good results. Sometimes the Force raises up what lies below — in the lower nature — in order to be able to deal with it.
18 DECEMBER 1938

There was an article on Sri Aurobindo in Asia, an American paper, by Swami Nikhilananda of the Ramakrishna Mission.

Disciple: It is surprising that Swami Nikhilananda should write about you.

Sri Aurobindo: It is Nishtha who arranged for its publication before coming here. He is a friend of hers.

(After a pause) It is peculiar how they give an American turn to everything.

Disciple: How is it that Americans seem to be more open?

Sri Aurobindo: Because they are a new nation and have no past tradition to bind them. France and Czechoslovakia also are open. Many are writing from there that they want to do Yoga.

Disciple: Was Nishtha in communication with you for some time?

Sri Aurobindo: Oh yes. For three or four years she has been in touch with us. She has very clear ideas about Yoga and was practising it there.

Disciple (who had just arrived) : She must be very disappointed because there was no Darshan this time.

Sri Aurobindo: No. She has taken it in the right yogic attitude — unlike many others.

Disciple: How was it that there are no Maharashtrian sadhaks here in spite of your close association with Tilak and staying so long in Baroda?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is strange. Perhaps because they are more vital in their nature. There are people from Bengal, Gujarat and Madras, and now also from C.P., Punjab, Behar.

(T he talk then passed on to Supermind.)

Disciple: I hope we shall live to see the glorious day of the Supermind. When will it descend, Sir?

Sri Aurobindo (After a pause): How can it descend? The nearer it comes the greater becomes the resistance to it!

Disciple: On the contrary, the law of gravitation should pull it down.

Sri Aurobindo: That theory does not apply to it for it has levitational tendency and if it comes down in spite of that it does so against tremendous resistance.

Disciple: Have you realized the Supermind?

Sri Aurobindo: You know I was talking about the tail of the Supermind to Y. I know what it is, I had flashes and glimpses of it. I have been trying to Supramentalise the Overmind. Not that the Supermind is not acting. It is doing so through Overmind and Intuition and the intermediate powers have come down. Supermind is above the Overmind (he showed it by placing one palm above the other) so that one may mistake one for the other. I remember the day when people here claimed to have got it. I myself had made mistakes about it in the beginning, and I did not know about the many planes. It was Vivekananda — who used to come to me in Alipore Jail — who showed to me the Intuitive plane. For about two to three weeks, he gave me instructions regarding Intuition. Afterwards I began to see the still higher planes. I am not satisfied with only a part, or a flash of Supermind, I want to bring down the whole mass of the Supermind pure, and that is an extremely difficult business.

Disciple: We hear that there will be a selected number of people who will first receive the Supermind.

Sri Aurobindo ( making a peculiar expression with his eyes) : Selected by whom?

Disciple: By the Supermind, Sir?

Sri Aurobindo (laughing) : Oh, then that is for the Supermind to decide. Whatever is the Truth will be done by it, for it is Truth-Consciousness. When things are established in the course of time by it your complaint about the disappearance of calm, etc., will disappear, for they will be established by the Supermind.

Disciple: Will the descent of Supermind make things easier for us?

Sri Aurobindo: It will do so for those who receive the Supermind, who are open to it; for example, if there are thirty or forty people ready it could descend.

Disciple: You said that in 1934 Supermind was ready to descend but not a single sadhak was found prepared, so it withdrew. But you told me once that the descent of the Supermind does not depend on the readiness of sadhaks.

Sri Aurobindo: If none is ready to receive how will the Supermind manifest itself? But instead of thinking of the Supermind one has first to open oneself to Intuition.

( At this time Mother came and asked about what we were talking.)

Sri Aurobindo: About intuition, etc.

( Then as Mother went into meditation we all joined. Mother left for the collective meditation downstairs at about 7 p.m.)

Sri Aurobindo: Does anyone know about S? I am curious to know how, as he puts it, his blood came out drop by drop from his body. He seems to have an Elizabethan turn of expression!

( Then, with reference to S and N, the sadhaks who had been expelled, the topic turned to the question of fear of death: How they even covered themselves up for fear of catching cold, etc. Sri Aurobindo recalled an incident at Cambridge: Once they were discussing physical development: one fellow took off his shirt and then his banians one after another — they found that there were ten or twelve on his body!)

Disciple: There are people who think that as soon as they have entered the Ashram they have become immortal! We must develop our consciousness in order to conquer death, is it not?

Sri Aurobindo: People think so because for a long time no death took place in the Ashram. Those who died were either visitors or who had gone back from here. In the beginning people had strong faith but as the number increased, the faith began to diminish. But why should one fear death? Besides, fear has no place in Yoga. The soul is immortal and the body passes. The soul goes from one life to another.

Disciple: We fear because of our attachments.

Sri Aurobindo: One must have no attachments in Yoga.

Disciple: How to conquer fear?

Sri Aurobindo: By mental strength, will and spiritual power. In my own case, whenever there was any fear I used to do the very things that I was afraid of even if it entailed a violent death. Barin also had much fear while he was in the revolutionary activities. But he would compel himself to do those things. When the death sentence was passed on him he took it very cheerfully. Henry IV, King of France, had a great physical fear but by his mental will he would compel himself to rush into the thick of the battle and was known as a great warrior. Napolean and Caesar had no fear. Once when Caesar was fighting the forces of Pompey in Albania, Caesars army was faring badly. Caesar was at that time in Italy. He jumped into a fisherman's boat and asked him to carry him across the sea to Albania. On the way a storm arose and the fisherman was mortally afraid. Then Caesar said "Why do you fear? You are carrying the fortunes of Caesar."

I remember a sadhak under an attack of hiccup saying, "If it goes on I will die." I told him, "What does it matter if you die?" and the hiccup stopped! Very often, these fears and suggestions bring in the adverse forces which then catch hold of the person. By my blunt statement the sadhak realised his folly and did not allow any more suggestions.

Disciple: Is Barin still doing Yoga?

Sri Aurobindo: I don't know. He used to do some sort of Yoga even before I began. In the Andamans also he was practising it. My Yoga he took up only after coming to Pondicherry.

You know he was Lele's disciple. Once he took Lele to Calcutta among the young people of the secret society. Lele did not know that they were revolutionaries. One day Barin took him into the garden where they were practising shooting. As soon as Lele saw it he understood the nature of the movement and asked Barin to give it up. If Barin did not listen to him, Lele said, he would fall into a ditch — and he did fall.

Disciple: Barin, I heard, had a lot of experiences.

Sri Aurobindo: They were merely mental and he gathered some knowledge, much information or understanding out of them. I heard that when he had begun yoga he had an experience of kāmānanda. Lele was surprised to hear about it. For he said that experience comes usually at the end. It is a descent like any other experience but unless one's sex centre is sufficiently controlled it may produce bad results such as emission and other disturbances.

Disciple: Yes. He had brilliance.

Sri Aurobindo: But he was always narrow and limited. He would not widen himself (Sri Aurobindo showed it by the movement of hands above the head)I that is why his things won't last. He was a brilliant writer and he also wrote devotional poetry, but nothing of that will last because of this limitation. He was an amazing amateur in many things, e.g. music, revolutionary activity, etc. He was also a painter, though it did not come to much in spite of his exhibitions. He did well in all these but nothing more.

Disciple: Barin in his paper Dawn began to write your biography.

Sri Aurobindo: I don't know that. Did he publish a paper? I would be interested to see what he wrote about me.

Disciple: It ceased after a short time.

Disciple: It was in that paper that he said you were the leader of the revolutionary movement. I asked you whether it was true.

Sri Aurobindo: And what did I say?

Disciple: You wrote back exclaiming with great surprise that what everyone knows you did not know.

Sri Aurobindo: In fact it is not true. That is what it is. Barin does not give the true state of things. I was neither the founder nor the leader. It was P. Mitra and Miss Ghosal who started it at the inspiration of Baron Okakura. They had already started when I visited Bengal, and I came to know about it. I simply kept myself informed of their work. My idea was an open, armed revolution in the whole of India. What they did at that time was very childish, e.g., beating magistrates and so on. Later it turned into terrorism and dacoities etc. which were not at all my idea or intention. Bengal is too emotional, wants quick results and can't prepare through a long course of years. We wanted to give battle by creating a spirit in the race through guerilla warfare. But at the present stage of warfare such things are impossible and bound to fail.

Disciple: Then why did you not check it?

Sri Aurobindo: It is not good to check such things that press for strong expression when they have taken a strong step, for something good may come out of it.

Disciple: You did not appear in the riding test in your I.C.S.?

Sri Aurobindo: No, they gave me another chance. But again I did not appear and finally they rejected me.

Disciple: But why then did you appear in the I.C.S.? Was it by some intuition that you did not go for the riding test?

Sri Aurobindo: Not at all. I knew nothing of Yoga at that time. I appeared for I.C.S. because my father wanted it and I was too young to understand. Later I found out what sort of work it is and I had a disgust for administrative life and I had no interest in administrative work. My interest was in poetry and literature and study of languages and patriotic action.

Disciple: We heard that you and C. R. Das used to make plans for revolution in India while in England.

Sri Aurobindo: Not only C. R. Das but many others. Deshpande was one.

Disciple: You used to write very strong memoranda for the Gaekwad; you once asked him to go and give it to the Resident personally.

Sri Aurobindo: That is legend. I could not have said so. Of course, I wrote many memoranda for the Maharaja. Generally he used to indicate the lines and I used to follow them. But I myself was not much interested in administration. My interest lay outside, in Sanskrit literature and in the national movement.

When I came to Baroda from England I found out what the Congress was at that time and formed a contempt for it. Then I came in touch with Deshpande, Tilak, Madhav Rao and others. Deshpande got me to write a series in the Indu Prakash (of which he was an editor). There I strongly criticised the Congress for its moderate policy. The articles were so fiery that M. G. Ranade, the great Maharashtrian leader, asked the proprietor of the paper (through Deshpande) not to allow such seditious things to appear in the paper, otherwise he might be arrested and imprisoned. Deshpande approached me with the news and requested me to write something less violent. I then began to write about the philosophy of politics, leaving aside the practical part of politics. But I soon got disgusted with it.

Along with Tilak, Madhav Rao, Deshmukh and Joshi (who became a moderate later) we were planning to work on more extreme lines than the Congress. We brought Jatin Banerji from Bengal and put him in the Baroda army. Our idea was to drive moderates from the Congress and capture it.

As soon as I heard that the National College had been started in Bengal, I found my opportunity, threw off the Baroda job and went to Calcutta as the Principal. There I came in contact with Bipin Chandra Pal who was editing the Bande Mataram. But its financial condition was precarious and when Pal was going on a tour he asked me to take up the paper. I asked Subodh Mullick and others to finance the paper and went on editing it. Then some people wanted to oust Pal from the Bande Mataram. When I was lying ill in Deoghar, they removed his name and put mine as the editor. I called the sub-editor and gave him a severe thrashing, of course metaphorically. But the mischief was done.

Bipin Pal was a great orator, and at that time his speeches were highly inspired, a sort of a descent. Later on his power of oration also got diminished. I remember he never used the word independence but always said "Autonomy without British control". Later on, when after the Barisal Conference we brought the peasants into the movement, forty to fifty thousand of them used to gather to hear Pal. Suren Banerjee cannot stand comparison with Pal — he has never done anything like it; but he also lost his power later on. Pal was more of an orator, he had not the qualities of a leader. Then Shyamsundar and some other people joined the Bande Mataram staff, and the paper soon drew the attention of a large number of people and became an all-India paper.

One day I called the Bengal leaders and said, "It is no use simply going on like this. We must capture the Congress and throw out the moderate leaders from it." Then I proposed we follow Tilak as the all-India leader. They at once jumped at the idea. Tilak who was not then well-known in the Northern parts accepted the leadership. He was a really great man; a rare disinterested one.

Disciple: What do you think of his Gita? Was it inspired?

Sri Aurobindo: I must say I have not read it.

Disciple: But you have reviewed it!

Sri Aurobindo: Then I have reviewed it without having read it. (Loud laughter) Of course, I might have glanced through it. I don't think it is inspired. It is more a mental interpretation, for he had a brilliant mind.

Disciple: When someone asked Tilak what he would do when India got Swaraj, he said he would again become a professor of Mathematics.

Disciple: What about Amrita Bazar Patrika? It was also an extremist paper?

Sri Aurobindo: Never. It was impossible for it to write openly like the Bande Mataram and Yugantar about independence, guerilla warfare, day after day. It wanted safety first. At that time three extremist papers were running in Bengal: Yugantar, Bande Mataram and Sandhya. Brahma Bandhava Upadhyaya, editor of Sandhya, was another great man. He used to write so cleverly that the Government could not charge him. Bande Mataram's financial condition was bad and yet we carried on for two years.

Disciple: But did the Government not try to arrest you?

Sri Aurobindo: It could not. There was no such law and the Press had more liberty. Besides, there was nothing in these papers that could be directly charged against us. The Statesman used to complain that Bande Mataram was full of sedition from end to end and yet was so cleverly written that the editor couldn't be arrested. Moreover, the name of the editor was never published, so they could only arrest the printer. But when one was arrested another took his place. When Upen Banerji, a sub-editor, published some correspondence, I was arrested on charge of sedition, but as nothing could be proved I was acquitted. Later, when I was detained in the Alipore Jail, as the paper was disastrously up against financial difficulties, they wrote something very strong and Bande Mataram was suppressed. After being acquitted, I started the Karmayogin. Once, when Sister Nivedita told me that the Government wanted to deport me, I published "An Open Letter to My Countrymen" and it prevented that prosecution. Later, when I heard the Government planned to arrest me, I went away secretly to Chandernagore. There some friends were thinking of sending me to France. I was thinking what to do next. Then I heard the adesh to go to Pondicherry.

Disciple: Why to Pondicherry?

Sri Aurobindo: I could not question. It was Sri Krishna's Adesh. I had to obey. Later on I found it was for the Ashram and for the Work.

I had to apply for a passport under a false name. The shipping company required a medical certificate by an English doctor. After a great deal of trouble I found out one and went to his house. He told me that I could speak English remarkably well. I replied that I had been to England.

Disciple: You took the certificate under a false name?

( I was a little surprised to hear he had disguised himself under a false name. So the question.)

Sri Aurobindo: Of course. If I had given my real name, I would have been at once arrested. With due respect to Gandhis truth, I could not be exacdy precise about my name, otherwise you can't be a revolutionary.

Accompanied by Bijoy and preceded by Moni and followed by Saurin, I arrived in Pondicherry but we had to assume false names for some time.
22 DECEMBER 1938

All of us assembled in the hope of hearing something from Sri Aurobindo. I was actually praying for it. But he did not seem to be in a talking mood. So we were forced to keep quiet, at the same time thinking how to draw him into conversation and by what question. Suddenly we find X beaming and looking at Sri Aurobindo. Then he takes a few steps nearer to Sri Aurobindo and we automatically follow him. He still nears and then bursts out with a question: "To attain the right attitude what principles should we follow in our dealing and behaviour with others?" Sri Aurobindo could not quite catch the question so it was repeated.

Sri Aurobindo: It seems to me the other way about. If we have the right attitude other things come by themselves. Right attitude is necessary, but what is important is the inner state. Spiritual and ethical principles are quite different, for everything depends on whether it is done for the sake of the Spirit or for ethical reasons. One may observe mental control in his dealings but the inner state may be quite different. For instance, he may not show anger, may be humble externally, but internally he may be proud and full of anger. For example A, when he came here, was full of humility outside. It is the psychic control that is required and when that is there right attitude follows in ones external behaviour. Conduct must flow from within outwards and the more one opens to the psychic influence the more it gains over the outer nature. Mental control may or may not lead to the spiritual. In people of a certain type it may be the first step towards psychic control.

Disciple: How to get psychic control?

Sri Aurobindo: By constant remembrance, consecration of ourselves to the Divine, rejection of all that stands in the way of the psychic influence. Generally, it is the vital that stands in the way with its desires and demands. And once the psychic opens it shows at every step what is to be done.

At the later stage of the conversation Mother came and soon after we all went into meditation with her. After her departure at about 7 p.m. Sri Aurobindo resumed.

Sri Aurobindo (to X) : What is the idea behind your question? Something personal or a general question?

Disciple: I meant, for instance, how to see God in everybody, how to love all and have goodwill for all.

Sri Aurobindo: One has to start with the idea of goodwill for all. To consecrate oneself to the Divine, try to see God in others, have a psychic goodwill and in oneself reject all vital and mental impulses, and on that basis proceed towards the realization. The idea must pass into experience. Once the realization is there, it becomes easy. Even then, it is easy in the static aspect, but when it comes to the dynamic experience it becomes difficult. For example, when one finds a man behaving like a brute it is very difficult to see God in him unless one separates him from his outer nature and sees the Divine behind. One can repeat the Name of the Divine and come to a divine consciousness.

Disciple: How does Name do it?

Sri Aurobindo: Name is a power, like a Mantra. Everything in the world is power. There are some who do Pranayama along with the Name. After a time the repetition behind the Pranayama becomes automatic and one feels the Divine Presence. Here people once began to feel tremendous force in their work. They could work without fatigue for hours and hours, but they began to overdo it. One has to be reasonable even in spirituality. That was when the Sadhana was in the vital. But when it began in the physical then things were different. The physical is like a stone, full of inertia and resistance.

Disciple: Sometimes one feels a sort of love for everybody; though the feeling lasts for a few seconds it gives a great joy.

Sri Aurobindo: That is a wave from the psychic. But what is your attitude towards it? Do you take it as a passing mood or does it stimulate you to have further experiences of that sort?

Disciple: It stimulates but sometimes vital mixture tries to come in. Fortunately I could drive it out recently.

Sri Aurobindo: That is the risk. The fact that the mixture tried to come in means that the wave came through the inner vital and thus took something from the vital. In the vital one has to be very careful in order to avoid sex impurities. In spite of his occasional outburst of violence, B was a very nice and affectionate man; but he used to get his psychic experiences mixed up with the sex-impulse and the experiences were spoiled. This happens because sometimes one gives a semi-justification to sex-impulses. But sex is absolutely out of place in Yoga. In ordinary life it has a certain place for a certain purpose. Of course, if you adopt the Sahaja Marga, it is different.

While I was in jail, I knew a man who had a power of concentration by which he tried to make everyone love him, and he succeeded. The warders and others around him were drawn towards him. Of course, one must know the process of concentration.

Disciple: That is just what we don't know! (Laughter)

Sri Aurobindo: The mind must be made quiet and the consciousness turned — not only mentally — towards the aim. It no doubt takes time but that is the way. There are no devices for these things.

Disciple: What difference is there between modification of nature and its transformation?

Sri Aurobindo: Transformation is the casting of the whole nature in the mould of your realisation. What you realise you project out in your nature. Christian saints speak of the presence in the heart. That presence can change the nature.

I speak of three transformations: psychic, spiritual, and supramental. Psychic transformation many have had; the spiritual is the realisation of the Self, the Infinite above, with its dynamic and static sides of peace, knowledge, Ananda, etc. And above that is the Supramental transformation. It is the Truth-Consciousness working for a Divine aim or purpose.

Disciple: If one has the inner realisation, does transformation follow in the light of that realisation?

Sri Aurobindo: Not necessarily. There may be some modification in the nature-part but the transformation is not automatic. It is not so easy as all that. My experience of peace and calm in the first contact with Lele has never left me, but in my outer nature there were many agitations and every time I had to make an effort to establish peace there. From that time onwards the whole object of my Yoga was to change the nature into the mould of the inner realisation. I had to try to transform it by the influence of my realisation.

Disciple: Could a man with true realisation — I don't mean experience — have grave difficulties such as the sex-impulse in his nature?

Sri Aurobindo: Why not? There can be anger, like Durvasa's, or sex. You have not heard of the fall of Rishis through anger or through sex? The Yogis pass beyond the stage of good and evil. Ordinary questions of morality don't arise in them. They may look upon outer nature as a child behaving according to its wants. I think Z's fall came in that way. He had gone into the higher mind, perhaps, not even to the overmind state; he used to be guided by an inner voice which he accepted as the voice of the Divine and did everything in the light of that voice. When people were asking him about his conduct, I am told, he replied that it was by the voice of God and that every Siddha had done that. You have heard of Agamyananda Swami who went to London? He was arrested in England for making advances to women in public places.

Disciple: Would not the inner realisation stop because of these outer indulgences?

Sri Aurobindo: It depends on how far one has gone on the path of spiritual realisation. There are any number of passages, crossways and paths; one may be at liberty to follow whatever yoga one likes. But in our Yoga we insist on the transformation of the outer nature as well. And when I say something is necessary in Yoga, it means in "our Yoga"; it does not apply to yoga with other aims.

There was a lull for some time after this. Then Sri Aurobindo asked: Do you know anything about M?

Disciple: My impression was not favourable. I was not personally attracted by him.

Sri Aurobindo: When I saw his photo I had an impression that he is a man with strong vital power. When I saw that he was advertising about himself as a Messiah I began to doubt his genuineness. His sadhana seems to be in the vital and it is in such cases that the power descends and unfortunately people are attracted by these powers. In the spiritual and psychic, even in the mental sadhana, power can come, but it comes automatically without ones asking for it.

Y was another M, with a powerful vital being. At one time I had strong hopes about him. But people whose sadhana is on a vital basis pass into what I have called the Intermediate Zone and hardly go beyond. The vital is like a jungle and it is extremely difficult to rescue one with such a vital power. It is comparatively much easier to help people who are weak and have no such power. Y used to think that he had put himself in the Divine's hand and the Divine was in him. We had to be severe with him to disillusion him of his idea. That is why he could not remain here. He went back and became a guru with about thirty or forty disciples round him. Gurugiri comes very easily to these people. He did all that in my name which I heartily disliked. Unfortunately his mind was not equally powerfully developed as his vital. He had the fighter's mind, not the thinker's. We often put a strong force on him and as a result he used to become very lucid for a time and he could see his wrong movements. But immediately his vital rushed back and took control of his mind and it all used to be wiped out. If his mind had been as developed perhaps he would have been able to retain the clarity. The intellect helps one to separate oneself from the vital and look at it dispassionately. The mind also can deceive but not so much.

M is another of this type.

Disciple: Why did he go away from here?

Sri Aurobindo: Because he wanted to be an Avatar and because he could not get rid of the attachment to his work. He is very unscrupulous.

Disciple: Has he some power?

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. But not an occult power like the other. Before that he was quite an ordinary man with some possibilities. When I came out of the jail, you know, I was staying in his house and I was full of a certain force. He got a share of it.

Disciple: How?

Sri Aurobindo: He was doing some kind of yoga. I gave him some instructions. From them he got his power.

Disciple: Was he working on your idea?

Sri Aurobindo: When I was leaving Bengal I thought it might be possible to work through him on condition that he remained faithful to me. That he could never be. His own self came to the front though the original push was from me, now it is not my force that is working there. These things become easily unspiritualised.

Disciple: In his Jīvan Saṇgini he makes a lot of fuss over his wife.

Sri Aurobindo: She struck me as a commonplace woman though a good woman. She was a better woman than he was a man. I saw her only once by chance as she was not used to coming out before men.

Disciple: He has developed a powerful Bengali style.

Sri Aurobindo: Is that so? He was once translating the Veda into Bengali.

Disciple: His Bengali, you know, was like a Christian missionary's Bengali. You know what it is like.
23 DECEMBER 1938

We assembled as usual, and were eager to resume the talk. But nobody could begin without some hint or gesture from Sri Aurobindo. He was lying calmly in his bed. One of us approached him half hesitatingly. This made X roar with laughter. Sri Aurobindo heard the laughter and asked: "Whats the matter?"

Disciple: X is roaring with laughter.

Sri Aurobindo: Descent of Ananda?

( This preliminary breaking of the ice made the atmosphere a little encouraging. So, catching the chance, I shot the following question with a beaming face.)

Disciple: Because the hostile forces offer resistance to the Divine manifestation in the world and some of them become sometimes victorious (at least for the time being) can one logically say that the Divine lacks Omnipotence? It is not my question but somebody else's.

Sri Aurobindo: It depends on what you mean by Omnipotence. If the idea is that God must always succeed then we must conclude that he is not Omnipotent. Do you mean to say that he must always succeed against the resistance and then only he may be called Omnipotent? People have very queer ideas of Omnipotence. Resistance is the law of evolution. Resistance comes from ignorance and ignorance is a part of inconscience: the whole thing starts from inconscience. At the very beginning when the opposition between Ignorance and Knowledge was created, there was the very denial of the Divine. It is his Lila that the manifestation shall proceed through resistance and struggle. What kind of Lila is it in which one side goes on winning? Divine Omnipotence generally works through the universal law. There are forces of Light and forces of Darkness. To say that the forces of Light shall always succeed is the same as saying that truth and good shall always succeed, though there is no such thing as unmixed truth and unmixed good. Divine Omnipotence intervenes only at critical or decisive moments.

Every time the Light has tried to descend it has met with resistance and opposition. Christ was crucified. You may say, "Why should it be like that when he was innocent?" and yet that was the Divine dispensation. Buddha was denied. Sons of Light come, the earth denies and rejects them; afterwards, accepts them in name to reject them in substance. Only a small minority grows towards a spiritual birth, and it is through them that the Divine manifestation takes place. What remains of Buddhism today except a few decrees of Asoka and a few hundred thousand Buddhists?

Disciple: Asoka helped in propagating Buddhism.

Sri Aurobindo: Anybody could have done that.

Disciple: But it is through his aid that it became all-powerful.

Sri Aurobindo: If kings and emperors had left Buddhism to those people who were really spiritual it would have been much better for real Buddhism. It was after Constantine embraced Christianity that it began to decline. The King of Norway, on whom Longfellow wrote a poem, killed all who were not Christians and thus succeeded in establishing Christianity! The same happened to Mohammedanism. When it succeeded, the followers of the Prophet became Khalifas; after them the religion declined. It is not kings and emperors that keep alive spirituality but people who are really spiritual that do so.

Disciple: Asoka sacrificed everything for Buddhism.

Sri Aurobindo: But he remained emperor till the end. When kings and emperors try to spread religion they become like Asoka, i.e., make the whole thing mechanical, and the inner truth is lost.

Disciple: Ramana Maharshi was known to no one. It was Brunton who made him widely known.

Sri Aurobindo: It is a strange measure of success people adopt in judging a Yogi by the number of disciples. Who was greater — Ramana Maharshi who did his Sadhana in seclusion for years or Ramana Maharshi surrounded by all sorts of disciples? Success, to be real, must be spiritual. At times, when some spiritual movement begins to succeed then the real thing begins to be lost.

Once, one Mrs. K went to see Maharshi and was seen fidgeting due to mosquitoes at the time of meditation. Later she complained to him of mosquito bites. Maharshi told her that if she couldn't bear mosquito bites she couldn't do Yoga. Mrs. K could not understand the significance of the statement. She wanted spirituality without mosquitoes!

There are reports that those who stay there permanently are not all in agreement with each other.

Do you know that famous story about Maharshi? Once, disgusted with the Ashram and the disciples, he was going away into the mountains. While passing through a narrow path flanked by the hills, he came upon an old woman sitting with her legs across the path. Maharshi begged her to draw aside her legs but she would not. When Maharshi crossed over them, she became very angry and said, "Why are you so restless? Why can't you sit in one place at Arunachala instead of moving about? Go back to your place and worship Shiva there." Her remarks struck him and he retraced his steps. After going some distance he looked back and found that there was nobody there. Suddenly it struck him that it was the Divine Mother herself who wanted him to remain at Arunachala.

Of course it was the Divine Mother who asked him to go back. Maharshi is intended to lead this sort of life. He has nothing to do with what happens around him. He remains calm and detached. The man is what he was.

By the way, I am glad to hear about the Maharshi shouting at some Indian Christians. It means he can also become dynamic.

The only Ashram in which there was great unity, I heard, was Thakur Dayanand's. There was a strong sense of unity among them. I wrote an article on the Avatar in Karmayogin. Mahendra Dey, a disciple of Dayanand's, seeing the article wrote to me, "He is the Avatar." He was very enthusiastic about it.

Disciple: Why are Gurus obliged to work with imperfect and defective people like us? Here the difficulty seems to be more keen.

Sri Anrobindo: That has been a puzzle to me also. But it is so. Our case is a little different. Our aim is to change the world — not universally, of course. Hence every one here represents human nature with all its difficulties and capacities. (Looking at the disciple) That's how your difficulties are explained.
26 DECEMBER 1938

At about 5.30 p.m., four of us were seated on the carpet beside Sri Aurobindo's cot, talking in low whispers. X broke into suppressed laughter in the course of the talk and ran out. Later, at about 6.30 p.m., we all assembled by the side of Sri Aurobindo. He looked round and referring to the laughter asked: "What was the divine descent about?"

Disciple: X had his usual outburst of laughter.

Sri Aurobindo: Oh, it was the descent of Vishnu's Ananda!

Disciple: It is very peculiar how I break out into uncontrolled laughter so easily. Formerly, I used to weep at the slightest provocation. I think it is because I live in the external consciousness only that I laugh so easily. Is it not?

Sri Aurobindo: It is the reaction of the superficial vital which is touched easily by simple, outward things; there is a child in the nature that bursts out like that. It is the same as the bālabhāva — the child-like nature. The deeper vital being does not get so easily touched.

Disciple: What is meant by self-offering? How to do it?

Sri Aurobindo: How to do it? One offers ones vital, mind and heart, rejecting the attachments, passions, etc., and grows into the Divine consciousness.

Disciple: What time is more propitious for meditation — daytime or night-time? I get more concentrated at night.

Sri Aurobindo: It may be due to the calm and quiet atmosphere, and also because you are accustomed to it. Nights and early mornings are supposed to be the best for meditation.

We ask people to have a fixed time for meditation, for, if they are habituated to it then the response comes at that time due to abhyāsa. Lele had asked me to meditate twice but when he came to Calcutta he heard that I did not do it. He did not give me time to explain that my meditation was going on all the time. He simply said: "The Devil has caught you."

Disciple: Sometimes meditation is automatic.

Sri Aurobindo: At that time you must sit, otherwise you feel uneasy.

Disciple: The other day I was having peace and Ananda, and I saw two visions. But I had to go to sleep, for I thought, if I kept it up at night I might fall ill. I saw the flower signifying sincerity in one vision.

Sri Aurobindo: Sincerity means to lift all our movements towards the Divine.

Disciple: The fear of falling ill by keeping awake, is it not a mental fear?

Sri Aurobindo: The thing is, the physical being has got a limit. The vital being can feel the energy, peace, etc., but the physical cannot be taxed beyond its capacity. That is what happened to many sadhaks here. They overworked till a reaction took place. The force comes for your particular work, not to increase the work or use it for other purposes. If you go on overdoing it then the natural reaction will come. There is a certain amount of reasonableness even in spirituality.

Disciple: At one time I also used to feel a lot of energy while I was working with the Mother and I was never fatigued even with working day and night. Only one or two hours of sleep was sufficient and I would feel as fresh as ever.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. That is because you opened yourself to the Energy. About sleep, even ten minutes of sleep may be enough, but of course, it is not ordinary sleep but going within. If you can draw the Force with equanimity and conserve it, these things can be done. As I said, many sadhaks felt that sort of thing when we were dealing with the Vital. But when the Sadhana came into the Physical there was not that push any more and people began to feel easily fatigued, lazy, and unwilling to work. They began to complain about ill-health due to overwork and were supported by the doctor. Do you know H's idea? He says people have come here not for work but for meditation!

I dare say if we had not come down into the Physical and remained in the Vital and Mental like other Yogis without trying to transform them, then things would have been different.

At this point Mother came in and we meditated for some time. After she went away, our talk was resumed.

Disciple: N had a good meditation. He did not know that Mother had gone.

Disciple: How do you know I had a good meditation?

Sri Aurobindo: By the inclination of your head, perhaps.

Disciple: I cant say. I was having many incoherent dreams and visions — that is all I can say; perhaps it was in the surface consciousness.

Sri Aurobindo: Surface consciousness of the inner vital being. Such things are very common; of course, when one goes still deeper one does not see them. There is a point between the surface consciousness and the deeper vital which is full of fantasies and dreams. They are apparently incoherent. But when one gets the clue one finds that everything is a linked whole. That I have seen many times in my own case. In the physical a mouse turning into an elephant may have no meaning but it is not so in the vital. They have no coherence on the physical plane but they have their own coherence on the vital plane. It is this world from which Tagore's painting came — what Europeans call the goblin world.

Disciple: Does Tagore see them before drawing them?

Sri Aurobindo: I do not think so. Some see them but do not draw them. But they come to him. Anybody who has the least experience of these planes can at once say from where they come.

Disciple: But how is it that people think of them as — and he himself calls them — great paintings?

Sri Aurobindo: Everybody calls them "great and wonderful", so he himself comes to believe it so.

( Then we began to talk about headaches, either due to physical cause or resistance.)

Disciple: I have seen many times my headache start after Mother's touch at Pranam.

Sri Aurobindo: That may be because you passed from one state of consciousness to another.

Disciple: Unconsciously?

Sri Aurobindo: Why not? When from a state of concentration you mix with others just after the Pranam you can easily pass to another state. That is why Mother advises people to remain calm and quiet for some time after Pranam or meditation.

Disciple: I felt once as if my head were suspended in the air and the other parts of the body did not exist.

Sri Aurobindo: That is separation of the mental consciousness.

Disciple: Are you able to know what experiences sadhaks are having, especially if they are decisive ones?

Sri Aurobindo: Idon't. But Mother knows. Whenever it is a question of consciousness she can see in the sadhak whatever changes are taking place. When she meditates with him she can know what line he is following — the line she indicates or his own — and afterwards what changes have been brought about in the consciousness.

Disciple: And when the sadhak experiences something, is it imparted by you?

Sri Aurobindo: What is the use of giving our own things to them? Let them have their own growth. I may put in a force for people who are in a bad condition, people who are always going wrong, and try to work it out so that the condition might improve. If the sadhak co-operates then it is comparatively easy. Otherwise, if the sadhak is passive then the result takes a long time; it comes, goes again, returns, like that, and ultimately the force prevails. In the case of B, we used to put in a strong force and he would become lucid and then the whole vital used to rush up and catch hold of him. Whereas if the sadhak actively participates then it takes only one-tenth of the time.
27 DECEMBER 1938

Sri Aurobindo himself opened the talk today by addressing X and said, "I hear D is going about in his car with a guard by his side and two cyclist policemen in front and back." Then the talk continued regarding Pondicherry politics, most of it by us.

Sri Aurobindo: When Isee Pondicherry and Calcutta Corporation Ibegin to wonder why I was so eager for democracy. They are two object-lessons which can take away all enthusiasm for self-government.

Disciple: Was the Calcutta Corporation so bad before the Congress came there?

Sri Aurobindo: No. There was not so much scope for corruption — at least we didn't know of such scandals. It is the same thing with other municipal administrations. In New York and Chicago the whole machinery is corrupt. Sometimes the head of the institution is like that. Sometimes a mayor comes up with the intention of cleaning out the whole, but one does not know after the cleansing which one was better. One of the mayors of Chicago was a great criminal but all judges and police-officers were in his pay. In France also it is the same thing. It is not surprising that people get disgusted with Democracy.

England is comparatively less corrupt. The English are the only people who know how to work the parliamentary system. Parliamentary government is in their blood.

Disciple: It seems that our old Indian system was the best for us. How could it succeed so well?

Sri Aurobindo: The old Indian system grew out of life, it had room for everything and every interest. There were monarchy, aristocracy, democracy. Every interest was represented in the government, while the Western system grew out of the mind. In Europe they are led by reason and want to make everything cut and dry without any chance of freedom or variation. If it is democracy, then democracy only and no room for anything else. They cannot be plastic.

India is now trying to imitate the West. Parliamentary government is not suited to India. But we always take up what the West has thrown off. Sir Akbar wanted to try a new sort of government with an impartial authority at the head. There, in Hyderabad, the Hindu majority complains that though Mahommedans are in minority they occupy most of the offices in the state. By Sir Akbar's method almost every interest would have been represented in the Government and automatically the Hindus would have come in, but because of their cry of responsible government the scheme failed. They have a fixed idea in the mind and want to fit everything into it. They can't think for themselves and so take up what the others are throwing off.

Disciple: It is possible in Hyderabad which has a Nizam, but how to do the same in an Indian Constitution? What is your idea of an ideal Government for India?

Sri Aurobindo: Sir Akbar's is as good as any. My idea is like what Tagore once wrote. There may be one Rashtrapati at the top with considerable powers so as to secure a continuity of policy and an assembly representative of the nation. The provinces will combine into a federation, united at the top, leaving ample scope to local bodies to make laws according to their local problems. Mussolini started with the fundamentals of the Indian system but afterwards began bullying and bluffing other nations for the sake of imperialism. If he had persisted in his original idea, he would have been a great creator.

Disciple: Dr. Bhagwandas suggested that there should be legislators above the age of forty, completely disinterested like the Rishis.

Sri Aurobindo: A Chamber of Rishis! That would not be very promising. They will at once begin to quarrel — nānā munir nānā mat, as they say. Rishis in ancient times could guide kings because they were distributed over various places.

Disciple: His idea is of gathering all great men together.

Sri Aurobindo (laughing) : And let them quarrel like Kilkenny cats, I suppose.

The Congress at the present stage — what is it but a Fascist organisation? Gandhi is the dictator, like Stalin — I wont say like Hitler. What Gandhi says they accept and even the Working Committee follows him. Then it goes to A.I.C.C. which adopts it and then the Congress. There is no opportunity for any difference of opinion except for Socialists who are allowed to differ. Whatever resolutions the Congress passes are obligatory on all the provinces whether the resolutions suit them or not. There is no room for any other independent opinion. Everything is fixed up before and the people are only allowed to talk over it — like in Stalin's Duma. When we started the movement, we began with the idea of throwing out the Congress oligarchy and opening the whole organisation to the general mass.

Disciple: Srinivas Aiyangar retired from Congress because of his differences with Gandhi. He objected to Gandhi's giving the movement a religious turn and bringing religion into politics.

Sri Aurobindo: He made Charkha an article of religious faith and excluded all people from Congress membership who could not spin. How many believe in his gospel of Charkha? Such a tremendous waste of energy, just for the sake of a few annas is most unreasonable.

Disciple: He made that rule perhaps to enforce discipline?

Sri Aurobindo: Discipline is all right but once you centralise, you go on centralising.

Disciple: It failed in agricultural provinces and seems to have succeeded in other places, especially where people had no occupation.

Disciple: In Bengal it didn't succeed.

Sri Aurobindo: In Bengal it did not. It may be all right as a famine-relief measure, but when it takes the form of an all-India programme it looks absurd. If you form a programme that is suited to the condition of the agricultural people it sounds somewhat reasonable. Give them education, technical training and give them the fundamentals or principles of organisation, not on political but on business lines. But Gandhi does not want any such industrial organisation and so he comes in with his magical formula "Spin, spin, spin." C. R. Das and others could act as a balance against him. It is all a fetish.

Denmark and Ireland organised their agriculture in the same way. Only now they are going to suffer because other nations are trying to be self-sufficient. I don't believe in that sort of self-sufficiency. For that is against the principles of life. It is not possible for nations to be self-sufficient like that.

Disciple: What do you think of Hindi being the common language? It seems to me English has occupied so much place that it will be unwise and difficult to replace it.

Sri Aurobindo: English will be all right and even necessary if India is to be an international State. In that case English has to be the medium of expression, especially as English is now replacing French as a world-language. But the national spirit won't allow it and also it is a foreign language. At the same time Hindi can't replace English in the universities nor the provincial languages. When the national spirit grows it is difficult to say what will happen. In Ireland before the revolution they wanted to abolish English and adopt Gaelic but as time went on and things settled themselves their enthusiasm waned and English came back.

Disciple: I do not understand why the Jews are being so much persecuted by Hitler.

Disciple: I understand that the Jews betrayed Germany during the war.

Sri Aurobindo: Nonsense! On the contrary they helped Germany a great deal. It is because they are a clever race that others are jealous of them. For anything that is wrong they point to the Jews — it is so much more easy than finding the real cause. Or because people want something or somebody to blame and so the popular cry, "The Jews, the Jews." You remember I told you about the prophecy regarding the Jews that when they will be persecuted and driven to Jerusalem that the Golden Age shall come? It is the Jews that have built Germany's commercial fleet and her navy. The contribution of the Jews towards the world's progress in every branch is remarkable.

But this sort of dislike exists among other nations also, e.g., the English do not like the Scots, because the Scots have beaten the English in commercial affairs. There was a famous story in Punch:Two people were talking. One asked, "Bill, who is that man?" and Bill answered, "Let us strike at him, he is a stranger."

And then in Bengal the West Bengal people used to call East Bengal people Bāngāl and composed a satire, Bāngāl mānūsh noye, oi ekta jontu. At one time I used to wear socks at all times of the year. The West Bengalis used to sneer at that, saying, "You are a Bāngāl" They thought that they were the most civilised people on earth. It is a legacy from the animal world, just as dogs of one street do not like dogs of another.

Disciple: But things will improve, I hope?

Sri Aurobindo: If this goes, you may be sure that the Golden Age is coming! All my opinions are of course on the basis of the present conditions. But the things would be quite different if the Supermind came down.

Disciple: You are tempting us too much with your Supermind. But will it really benefit the whole of mankind?

Sri Aurobindo: It will exert a certain upward pull but in order that it may bring about a considerable change, that it may be efficient, two hundred sadhaks of the Ashram can't be enough. It must be thousands whose influence can spread all over the world, who by actual test can prove that it is something superior to the means hitherto employed.

Disciple: Will it have a power over humanity?

Sri Aurobindo: We shall leave it to the Supermind to answer that question when it comes.

Disciple: The materialist and scientist say that Yogis have done nothing for human happiness. Buddhas and Avatars have come and gone but the sufferings of humanity are just the same.

Sri Aurobindo: Did Avatars come to relieve the sufferings of humanity? It was only Buddha who showed the way of release from suffering. But his path was to get away from the world and enter into Nirvana. Does mankind follow him? And if they do not and cannot get rid of their suffering, it is not Buddha's fault!

Disciple: They say that by scientific discoveries and medical inventions they have been able to improve the condition of the world, e.g., by cholera injections, smallpox vaccinations, the death rate is reduced.

Sri Aurobindo: And are they happy? Vaccination! Knowledgeable people say that vaccinations have done more harm than good.

Disciple: But that is the opinion of intellectuals and not of doctors.

Sri Aurobindo: Why, they have surely studied the subject before they gave their opinion? Doctors may have reduced cholera, etc., but what about the other things that they have brought in? Suffering cannot go as long as ignorance remains. Even after the Supermind descends the suffering will remain. If you choose to remain in suffering, how can it go?

Disciple: Doctors can compel people to take injections even against their will, and thus benefit them. Can spiritual Force do that? The Yogis have been busy with their own salvation while the world has remained just the same.

Sri Aurobindo: Evolution has proceeded from matter through animal to physical man, vital man, mental man and spiritual man. When mental man, or spiritual man, appears the others do not disappear. So, the tiger and serpent do not become man. In this upward growth of the human consciousness you cannot say that Buddha, Christ, and others, have played no part.

I consider the Supramental the culmination of the spiritual man. When the Supramental becomes established I expect that one will not be required to flee from life. It is something dynamic that changes life and nature. It will open the vital, mental and even the physical to the intuitive and overmental planes.

You want comfort and happiness: in that case, Truth and Knowledge are of no value.

The discoveries of modern science have outrun the human capacity to use them. The scientists don't know what to do with these discoveries and they have been used for the purposes of destruction. Now they are trying to kill men by throwing germs from aeroplanes; smallpox and cholera at least end the suffering by death, but by bombing, etc., you mutilate for life.

Politics, science, even socialism, have not succeeded in finding a way out of suffering. They rally people to kill each other and involve the state into a peril — unless you say that murders and massacres are necessary. From this state of chaos and suffering people have been shown ways of escape, but those who have shown these ways, you say, are not useful!

No, no, all that is a superficial view of things. One has to consider the whole civilisation before one can pass an opinion.

It is because Western civilisation is failing that people like Aldous Huxley are drawn to Yoga.
28 DECEMBER 1938

At about 5.30 p.m. X burst into a peal of laughter to which Sri Aurobindo reacted by asking: "What is that dynamic explosion?" There was no reply, only a silence of suppression. But around 6:30 p.m. the joke was repeated and X complained to Sri Aurobindo that Y was making him laugh. The reply was: "Take care that he does not make you go off like a firework!" Then all assembled by the side of the cot and there was complete quiet. Y yawned and X started mocking him. The result was a subdued bubble of laughter. Sri Aurobindo could hardly fail to notice it. He asked: "What is the joke?"

Disciple: X is mocking at my yawning.

Sri Aurobindo: He does not know that yawning may be a fatal symptom?

( There was reference to a letter from another sadhak relating his symptom of yawning at night)

Disciple: What medicine has been given to him for his perennial sickness?

Disciple: That is a secret.

Sri Aurobindo: That reminds me of the science of Augury in Greece. There used to be government augurs who used to be called in to interpret omens and signs; and from that a College of Augury came into existence. There, in the college, the professors used to be quite grave and serious — they gave lectures on Augury with grave faces; but when afterwards they met together they used to laugh among themselves.

By the way, we have got mutilated radio news today. They have dropped two important words. Instead of saying the Italians are "planning to march" into Djibouti, they have said the Italians are "marching" into it. If the Italians march into Djibouti, the French can march into Tripoli as counter-attack.

Disciple: The French can also organise the Abyssinians against Italy.

Sri Aurobindo: There wont be time for that.

Disciple: The Italians don't seem to be good soldiers.

Sri Aurobindo: No. I will be greatly surprised if they can defeat the French. In that case Mussolini must have changed the Italian character tremendously.

Disciple: They had a hard time in Abyssinia.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. It was by their air-bombs and mustard-gas poisoning that they succeeded.

Disciple: But they will be aided by the Germans.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, Italy can't do without Germany.

Disciple: Fisher, the historian, says that the German army in the last war was the greatest and the best army ever organised in the world.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. They are the most organised and able soldiers in the world excepting the Japanese. But the Japanese are numerically less and financially poorer.

Even so during the last war the Germans could not throw up any remarkable military genius like the French General Foch. If Foch had been made the Commander-in-Chief of the Allies sooner, the war would have ended much earlier.

The Balkan people and the Turks are also good fighters.

Disciple: What about the Sikhs and the Gurkhas?

Sri Aurobindo: They are unsurpassed. But a war depends not on fighters but on generals.

Disciple: The British consul here says that the Chinese are no good as soldiers and the Russians are good only in defensive warfare. The Germans are trying to advance into the Ukraine. After that Hitler might come to central Europe.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes. But that will at once combine Russia, Poland, Rumania and Yugoslavia. These small powers will be afraid for their own safety.

Disciple: I don't understand why Germany joins Italy in attacking France. According to European astrology Hitler's stars are with him till December 1938.

Sri Aurobindo: Why, Hitler himself has said in his Mein Kampf that Germany is not safe without the destruction of France. And France says the same thing about Germany.

Disciple: I read in the paper today that a group of people in England are shouting that America belongs to them, as a counter move to Italian claims.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they can claim Germany, and also Denmark and Italy too for that matter.

Disciple: The way these people are preparing seems that war is inevitable.

Sri Aurobindo: But we thought that they would not do anything till early next year. They have chosen this time, perhaps, because they think that France has been divided by the general strike. But war will bring the whole nation together at once. In any case, we find that the Germans are busy enjoying their Christmas.

Disciple: England, most probably, will have to ally herself with France.

Sri Aurobindo: You have seen what Chamberlain has said? "England is not obliged to help France in case of war with Italy." But if Italy combines with Germany one can't say what England will do.

Disciple: In case there is a general war India will have an opportunity for independence.

Sri Aurobindo: How?

Disciple: She will refuse to co-operate. I think the formation of the Congress Ministries were due to the threat of war in Europe.

Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it was in order to conciliate the Indians.
29 DECEMBER 1938

A question of Dr. Savour was conveyed by one of the disciples.

Disciple: What is the connection between the causal body and the psychic being?

Sri Aurobindo: The psychic being is what is called Chaitya Purusha in the heart, while the causal body is part of the Superconscious. They are not the same.

Disciple: It is the Superconscious existence that later on is called "Self" in Vedanta. According to some people Ramana Maharshi has realised the Self.

Sri Aurobindo: From what Brunton has written it does not seem so. He speaks of the "voice in the heart", that would mean the psychic being.

At this point Mother came and asked: "What have you been speaking about?"

Sri Aurobindo: X has asked a question which does not hang together. (Then he repeated the question.)

Disciple: I have heard about Ramana Maharshi's experience from a direct disciple of his: "One day the heart centre opened and I began to hear 'I, I', and everywhere I saw this 'I'."

Disciple: Different spiritual persons say different things. How to find out which is the highest? Our own choice is not necessarily that of the highest.

Mother: Each one goes to the limit of his consciousness. I have met many persons in Europe, India and Japan practising Yoga under different masters. Each claimed that his realisation was the highest; he was quite sure about it and also quite satisfied with his condition, and yet each one was standing at a different place in consciousness and saying that he had attained the highest.

Disciple: But one can know what they mean by some criterion?

Mother: By what criterion? If you ask them they say, "It is something wonderful but can't be described by the mind." I was with Tagore in Japan. He claimed to have reached the peace of Nirvana and he was beaming with joy. I thought: "Here is a man who claims to have got the peace and reached Nirvana. Let us see." I asked him to meditate with me and I followed him in meditation and found that he had reached just behind the mind into a sort of emptiness. I waited and waited to see if he would go further; I wanted to follow him, but he would not go any further. I found that he was supremely satisfied and believed that he had entered Nirvana!

Disciple: But there is a fundamental realisation of some kind?

Mother: That is to say, there is a fundamental truth of consciousness. But that is not so easy to reach.

Disciple: How to choose a master, then? We must know whom to choose.

Disciple: How are you going to know with your mind where he has reached?

Disciple: Is not our choice decided by the psychic being in us?

Mother: That is another question. First you must realise about the limit of consciousness and the difference of the place where people stand.

The choice is mostly in answer to your need and it is governed by your inner necessity. Sometimes, the choice is made by the sort of instinct by which animals find the right place for their food. Only, in human beings it acts from within. If you allow your mind to discuss and argue then the instinct becomes veiled. When you have made the choice the mind naturally wants to believe that it is the highest you have chosen. But that is subjective.

Disciple: If the choice is right one feels happiness and satisfaction.

Mother: Satisfaction? One can't depend upon feelings and sensations, for, very often they misguide. Satisfaction is quite a different thing. There are people who are not satisfied in the best conditions, while in the worst conditions some are quite satisfied.

Look at the people in the world around: some are very happy with their conditions; and there are some whose satisfaction depends upon their liver — a brutally materialistic state. Also there are people who suffer extremely and yet their inmost being knows that that is their path for reaching the goal.

Disciple: There are certain lakshanas — signs — given by the Shastras by which one can judge.

Sri Aurobindo: What Shastras? One can't believe in all that is said in the Shastras.

Mother: Besides, that may be all right for Indians; what about the Europeans? You can't say that they have not realised any truth.

Then the Mother took her leave and went for meditation. There was a pause of silence for some time. Then Sri Aurobindo asked: "What are the lakshanas you spoke of ?"

Disciple: They arc common and found everywhere. They are given in the Gita: equality, love for others, even-mindedness, etc.

Sri Aurobindo: These are, rather, conditions for realisation. All experiences are true and have their place. But because one is true one can't say that the other is false. Truth is infinite. There are so many ways to come to the Truth. The wider you become, the higher you go, the more you find that there is still more and more. For instance, the Maharshi has his experience of 'I'. But when I had the Nirvana experience I could not think of an 'I' — however much I tried I could not think of any 'I'. It simply got displaced. One can't speak of it as 'I'. It is either 'He' or 'That' — I call it Laya. Realisation of the Self is all right; Laya is a part of a realisation which is much more comprehensive. When I do not accept Mayavada it is not that I have not realised the Truth behind it or that I don't know "the One in All" and "All in the One", — but because I have other realisations which are equally strong and which cannot be shut out. The Maharshi is right and everybody else is also right.

When the mind tries to understand these things, it takes up fragments and treats them as wholes and makes unreal distinctions. They speak of Nirguna as the fundamental experience and Saguna as derivative or secondary. But what does the Upanishad mean by Ananta Nirguna and Ananta Saguna? They can't be thought of as different. When you think of Impersonality as the fundamental Truth and Personality as something imposed upon it and therefore secondary, you cut across with your mind something which is beyond both. Or, is it not that Personality is the chief thing and Impersonality is only one side, or one condition of Personality? No. Personality and Impersonality are aspects of a thing which is indivisible. Shankara is right and so are Nimbarka and Madhava. Only, when they state their Truth in mental terms there is a tremendous confusion. Shankara says "It is anirvacanīya — indescribable by speech" and "All is One." Nimbarka says: "There is Duality and Unity"; while Madhava says: "Duality is true."

The Upanishads speak of "Him by knowing whom all is known." What does it mean? That vijñāna is not merely the fundamental realisation of the One. It means the knowledge of the principles of the Divine Being, what Krishna speaks of as tattvataḥ. One cannot know the complete Divine except in the Supermind. That is why Krishna said that one who knows him in the "true principles of his being" is rare, kaścit. The Upanishads also speak of the Brahman as catuṣpada — having four feet or aspects. They do not merely state "All is the Brahman" and it is over. The realisation of the Self is not all. There are many things beyond that. The Divine Guide within me urged me to proceed, adding experience after experience, reaching higher and higher, stopping at none as final, till I arrived at a glimpse of the Supermind. There I found the Truth indivisible and there everything takes its proper place. There, Nirguna and Saguna — Impersonality and Personality — don't exist. They are all aspects of One Truth which is indivisible.

At the Overmind stage knowledge begins to rush in upon you from all sides and you see the objects and situations from all points of view. All of them tend to get related to each other; and there the Cosmic Consciousness is not merely in its static aspect but also in its dynamic reality: it is the expression of something Above. When you become cosmic even though you speak of yourself as 'I' it is not the ego — that 'I-ness' disappears, and the mental, vital and the physical appear as representatives of that Consciousness. Ramakrishna speaks of that state as the form of ego left for action. When you reach the Supermind you become not only cosmic but something beyond the universe — transcendental, and there is indivisibility of unity and individuality. There, the cosmic and the individual all co-exist.

The same principle works out in science. The scientists at one time reduced all multiplicity of elements to Ether and described it in the most contradictory terms. Now they have found the electron as the basis of Matter. By the difference of position and number of electrons you get the whole multiplicity of objects. There also you find the One that is Many, and yet they are not two different things. Both the One and the Many are true and through both you have to go to the Truth.

When you come to politics, democracy, plutocracy, monarchy, etc., all have some truth — even Hitler and Mussolini stand for some truth.

Ours is a very big Yoga, one has to travail. I think X is not prepared to take all that trouble.

Disciple: Never, Sir! I have come here because I can't take so much trouble.

Sri Aurobindo: You are not called upon to do it. Even for me it would have been impossible if I had to do it all myself. At a certain stage the Heavens opened and the thing was done for me.

Disciple: My friend K asked Maharshi if attainment of immortality was possible. The Maharshi would not say anything by way of reply. But as K persisted, he said: "It is possible by Divine Grace."

Sri Aurobindo: That is hardly an answer. Everything is possible by Divine Grace. There are two things about immortality: one, the conquest of death. It does not however mean that one would never die. It means leaving the body at will. Second, it includes the power to change or renew the body. There is no sense in keeping the same body for years; that would be a terrible bondage. That is why death is necessary in order that one can take another body and have a fresh growth. You said Dasharath lived for sixty thousand years. I do not know what he did with such a long life — except that at the end he began producing children!

Have you read Shaw's Back to Methuselah? It shows how silly an intellectual can become. And what a ridiculous farce he has made of Joan of Arc! When he speaks of her visions they are projections of his own mental ideas and decisions. Shaw is all right when he speaks of England, Ireland and Society; but he can't do anything constructive. There he fails miserably. Intellectuals like Russell, when they talk of something beyond their scope cut such a poor figure: you can see what he writes about the "introvert". They cant tolerate emptiness or cessation of thought and breaking away from outside interests! If you ask them to stop their thoughts they refuse to accept it and at once come back from emptiness. And yet it is through emptiness one has to pass beyond.

[1] Shankara's followers disagree. According to Sri Aurobindo, God is one and many at the same time — they may say, "a logical contradiction". So is Maya — true and false at the same time. That also is a logical contradiction.

[2] The sannyasi was one of the three whom Vivekananda had driven out of the Math. They had then become 'avatars' in one day!
***
THE 15TH OF AUGUST JANUARY 1939
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