object:2.15 - On the Gods and Asuras
book class:Evening Talks With Sri Aurobindo
author class:A B Purani
subject class:Integral Yoga
class:chapter
ON THE GODS AND ASURAS
ON THE GODS AND ASURAS
4 APRIL 1924
Disciple: In the Bhāgawata there are descriptions of beings on the mental and other subtle planes. What influence is the Supramental Yoga likely to exert on them when it is perfected?
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean? Do you refer to the mental in men or to beings who have no bodies but are living on the mental plane? If you say that a plane is supramentalised then all the beings on that plane also must be supramentalised. Then by that dme the Pushwala[1] also may have his mind transformed. You can't expect the Universal Law to change like that. These planes and the beings on them change in relation to you or in so far as they come in contact with you. But they cannot change by your doing Sadhana.
Disciple: How do the beings on the mental plane come in contact with us and how do they undergo change or do Sadhana?
Sri Aurobindo: These distinctions between the various grades of being are bound to remain; otherwise there would be only a Supramental universe. For the Lila to go on these distinctions are necessary. Besides, among these beings, each has his own destiny to fulfil. They must go by their own way.
Disciple: How would the Supramental Yoga affect the earth-plane and the laws of this universe?
Sri Aurobindo: If the Supramental Truth were made a fact on this earth, then surely, you do not think that the Pushwala also would immediately change. It would be more easily possible for other human beings to embody that Truth. It would create an atmosphere in the world. But in the general humanity it would not introduce a sudden break. It would make it more easy for a larger number of men to attain to the Intuitive plane — at present there are very few who can do it.
The influence of the man who brings down the Supramental Truth would be more effective on those who came in contact with him and that would be in proportion to each ones opening to the Higher Power. It would not mean that the trees would begin to speak or that the animal mind would suddenly change.
Disciple: Can it be that no influence would be produced on the earth-plane?
Sri Aurobindo: The Power is there that was not there before. The atmosphere is also there that was not there before; and so it is bound to bring about a certain change. But it would not radically alter the laws of the universe.
MAY 1924
Disciple: Is there any instance of an Asura Siddha on the Supramental plane?
Sri Aurobindo: No.
Disciple: You had indicated in a list of classified beings the Asura as one type.
Sri Aurobindo: I meant there 'Asura' in the Vedic sense. The mental Asura is a mistranslation of something in the Supermind and in the original Puissance. Pure Power is called Asura. It is the Vedic Asura and not the Puranic Asura. In the Veda 'Asura' is a title applied to all the gods — in many places Indra is called Asura. It was later that the derivation from Sura was found and A-sura became the titan. Originally, 'Asura' indicates the highest Puissance. It is perhaps in the tenth Mandala that it is used in the Puranic sense.
9 DECEMBER 1925
Talk turned to X's demand on Y that he should acknowledge him as God. This was in Bengal.
Disciple: How did you escape from the god?
Disciple: X used to come to me in what he called the ''divine mood", which I found to be an abnormal mood. And then he used to tell me that he was God. I used to remain silent. Then when he pressed me too much I asked him to uproot the tree in the compound if he was God.
Disciple: Very hard test for God to pass!
Disciple: You wanted God to be Kikarsingh! A very athletic God! (Laughter)
There was then talk about another spiritual figure in Bengal. A disciple of this Guru, A, argued with a Pandit trying to prove the Avatarhood of the Guru. But the Pandit would not accept it. So when he slept at night on an iron bed-stead they applied an electric current and gave him shocks, to make him accept the Guru's Avatarhood!
Sri Aurobindo: But Ithought A always denied that he was an Avatar.
Disciple: I also thought so. But after a famous leader became his disciple there has been a change in him.
Sri Aurobindo: That is likely. Success may have turned his head. But I don't understand why people demand external signs of an Avatar. What has it to do with the external life?
Disciple: The idea is that there must be Aishwarya, divine Powers, in an Avatar.
Sri Aurobindo: Aishwarya is all right. But it is essentially a consciousness. What external sign can there be of an inner spiritual consciousness?
Disciple: But I suppose these two things, the inner spiritual consciousness of the Divine and the Aishwarya, are not incompatible.
Sri Aurobindo: Not at all. But there are lots of people who have powers, whatever their nature, but may not have any spiritual consciousness. For instance, Coué has a certain power, and so have some occultists in Europe. But they are far from any spiritual consciousness. Generally the man who has some such power is very ordinary and turned downwards in his ordinary vital movements.
(After a long pause) It is not essential that the Higher Consciousness must manifest itself in life and in action upon large masses of men. It is not merely a question of power. The question is what power is manifested, from where does one bring it? For instance, Napoleon had a certain power but that does not mean that he had a spiritual consciousness. So there may be power or powers but no spiritual consciousness. The higher up one goes one finds that the ordinary men are left far behind and cannot reach him, and so his power cannot work upon them.
Again, you cannot expect work from the Avatar in the same way as from ordinary men. He can work directly upon universal forces and thus work on humanity without seemingly doing anything and nobody can know what work he has done. It would look ridiculous and also arrogant if I were to say that I worked for the success of the Russian Revolution for three years. Yet I was one of the influences that worked to make it a success. I also worked for Turkey.
Disciple: What about India?
Sri Aurobindo: It takes time. I worked through some people, but the Power stops when people become intoxicated with success.
12 JANUARY 1926
Sri Aurobindo: Temporary occupation by the Higher Consciousness is quite possible. But I do not see the use if the Avatar has to make himself recognised like this by declarations or self-advertisements. Ramakrishna said this and I think everybody who had a great spiritual Power has also said it sometime or other. There is nothing impossible in it. Such temporary occupation Chaitanya also had and in that state he used to speak as the Lord.
1 JUNE 1926
Disciple: These newspapers print anything they like. Can they print the talk that takes place in one's house?
Sri Aurobindo: If you expect manners from modern newspapers you will be sorely disappointeded in these democratic days. It is one of the blessings of modern democracy! If you were in America and did not give any interview even then they would invent one! The press is a public institution. Formerly, it was something dignified, but now the newspapers are the correct measures of the futility of human life.
Disciple: The Princess of Baroda was married to the Prince of Wales of England in an American paper — with photographs and all!
Sri Aurobindo: They are a faithful mirror of the common mind.
Disciple: They are moving pictures of humanity.
Disciple: But formerly they were not like that.
Sri Aurobindo: Formerly there was no common mind and then it was not organised. It is the same with all other modern things — the press, the theatre, the radio; they drag down everything to the level of the crowd.
Disciple: But the radio and telephone are a great success in Japan and in Europe; one can listen to the best musicians for four to six hours.
Sri Aurobindo: But in America they do not know whether it is cinema that is helping crime. Of course, they want to use it for an educative purpose. They may relay good music but the question is whether people appreciate and understand it.
Disciple: Radios are better than gramophones.
Sri Aurobindo: Gramophones were murderers of music. But unfortunately, it is the same with all things that require popular support, — the theatre, cinema, etc.; they succeed only if they can pamper the common man's tastes. The impact of the vital on the physical plane increases vital desires.
Disciple: Where do the best people go?
Sri Aurobindo: They have to compromise if they care to be heard. But in that compromise all that is best gets so much mixed with evil. I do not mean evil in the moral sense, but what is inartistic and bad. It is the same old question of the mass being pulled up by something higher. But, as it always happens, instead of being pulled up, it is the mass that pulls everything down to its level.
Take, for instance, poetry. There is more poetry written now than ever before; there are some products of a certain type of brilliancy more common. Perhaps the number of people who read poetry is larger. But if you take poetry in the mass you will find that it is going down. Everything that depends upon the common man for its support has to come down to his level.
Disciple: Are things worse or becoming better?
Sri Aurobindo: To me the condition of Europe, after the war especially, seems almost to be the same as that at the break-up and disintegration of the Roman Empire. There is the same tendency to plunge the world into barbarism again.
Disciple: Is there no hope?
Sri Aurobindo: There is always a hope. At the time of the Roman Empire also there was a hope, but it did not materialise.
Disciple: Can one say there is greater hope this time?
Sri Aurobindo: The struggle has become worse, more acute.
Disciple: Men are beings on the physical plane, but they have vital and mental and psychic parts. Do the beings of the vital plane possess also mental and psychic parts?
Sri Aurobindo: The vital and physical planes are different. On the physical plane there is evolution through different grades of the being; ours is a plane of evolution. On the vital plane there is no evolution. It is a plane of typal beings; there the conciousness does not evolve from one plane to another.
The animal has its consciousness held and imprisoned by the vital; and when it is ready, the consciousness changes to the mental and the animal reincarnates as the human being. Some of our cats are ready for the human birth.
In man that transition has taken place, he has crossed the border. But the ordinary man can hardly be said to have a soul or the psychic being. The soul is there but it is covered up and very much behind.
Disciple: Do the Asuras have also the possibilities of man?
Sri Aurobindo: No.
Disciple: Is there no progress for the Asura?
Sri Aurobindo: Not in the sense of evolution of consciousness.
Disciple: But you said that the Asura can be transformed or converted?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. They can change their working and open to something higher.
Disciple: Is that what you meant by their being converted? Then can they help evolution?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they can manifest something higher than their vital nature and become instruments of the Divine. But generally they do not change.
Disciple: What becomes of the Asuras if they are not converted?
Sri Aurobindo: They can be annihilated; but if you ask what would happen at the end of the kalpa, well, it is difficult to answer. If they change, then they can open themselves to something higher and try to manifest it.
Disciple: Some of the Asuras are said to have practised Sadhana. What is their kind of Sadhana? You also said that they are very intelligent beings.
Sri Aurobindo: I never said that they have true ideas and great ideals and that they are great mental beings. What I said was that they are clever in carrying out their purpose; they know how to work out results.
Disciple: What is their place in evolution? Could it go on without them?
Sri Aurobindo: There is the old idea of Devas and Asuras struggling to control human evolution. The Asuras are responsible for the great complexity of the world, but in my opinion they are not a necessity. They realise themselves through revolt, suffering, struggle, and difficulty. But the world could have evolved differently — more like a flower blooming from within outwards. But the forces of the Asura-type entered the universal play of forces and perverted it. This is the truth known to almost all the religions: for instance, the snake, the Evil, tempting Eve — Prakriti. Eve deceiving Adam — Purusha. Adam consenting and their fall: this they speak of as the fall of the cosmic man.
In India this struggle as to who should control the course of human evolution, between the Devas and the Asuras, expresses the same truth.
Disciple: What is then the truth in the Puranic idea of worshipping God through vaira bhāva — feeling of opposition and hostility?
Sri Aurobindo: In the case of Havana and Hiranyakashipu, they were human beings who became Asuras and chose the path of opposition to the Divine. It is really a fall and it shows that the course of evolution for man is not to become an Asura. That is to say, the course of human evolution is not from the animal to the vital being and then to the Asura. Asuric life is regarded as a fall for man. If you get converted to the Asuric nature then you lose the chance of your evolution.
Disciple: How should one protect oneself against the attacks and influence of the Asuras?
Sri Aurobindo: Through purity and sincerity one is secure from the Asuras. They might give you blows, they might deceive and befog the mind, they might retard and make you commit mistakes, but if you have the white light of purity and sincerity they cannot harm you. There is no definitive fall, you will go through.
15 JUNE 1926
Disciple: If the Asuras represent the dark side of God on the vital plane, does this dark side exist on every plane? If so, are there beings on the mental plane who correspond to the dark side?
Sri Aurobindo: The Asura is really the dark side of God on the mental plane. Mind is the very field of the Asura. His characteristic is egoistic strength which refuses the Higher Law. The Asura has got self-control, Tapas, intelligence — only, all that is for his ego.
On the vital plane the corresponding forces are called the Rakshasas who represent violent passions and impulses. There are other beings on the vital plane whom we call pramatta and piśāca and they manifest, more or less, on the physico-vital plane.
Disciple: What is the corresponding being on the higher plane?
Sri Aurobindo: On the higher plane there are no Asuras — there the Truth prevails. There are 'Asuras' there in the Vedic sense, — beings with divine powers. The mental Asura is only a deviation of that power.
The work of the Asuras has all the characteristics of mind in it. It is mind refusing to submit to the Higher Law; it is the mind in revolt. It works on the basis of ego and ignorance.
Disciple: What are the forces that correspond to the dark side of God on the physical plane?
Sri Aurobindo: They are what may be called the elemental beings, or rather, obscure elemental forces — they are 'forces' more than 'beings'. It is these that the Theosophists call the Elementals. They are not individualised beings like the Asura and the Rakshasa, they are ignorant forces working on the subtle-physical plane.
Disciple: What is the word for them in Sanskrit?
Sri Aurobindo: What are called bhūtas seem most nearly to correspond to them.
Disciple: The term 'elemental' means that they work through the elements?
Sri Aurobindo: There are two kinds of elementals: one mischievous and the other innocent. What Europeans call gnomes come under this category.
Disciple: You said some time back that some forces of diseases are individualised while others are not.
Sri Aurobindo: I did not say so; what Imight have said is that there are conscious forces behind the diseases. Diseases are movements of forces.
Disciple: You said that some diseases feed on the vitality of man.
Sri Aurobindo: It is not diseases that feed on man's vitality. It may be a vital being sucking up man's vitality and the result may be a disease.
Disciple: What is the relation between these forces: the rākśasa, the piśācha and the pramatta?
Sri Aurobindo: The Rakshasa makes use of them for his purpose.
Disciple: Does not a disease originate from our breaking the laws of nature?
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean by the laws of nature? What are these laws?
Disciple: When a man acts from desire he may do things which he is not compelled to do by need: e.g., overeating, lust, etc.
Sri Aurobindo: There are no such universal laws of nature. If you ask people who have lived a long life you will find one saying that he lives long because he has kept to what you would call the laws of nature, that he is not smoking or taking wine, etc. While another will say that he has been able to live long because he had always had a peg! And so on. So there are no such universal laws.
Disciple: But it is a fact that observance of hygienic laws diminishes mortality.
Sri Aurobindo: What you can at the most say is that if one keeps what you call the hygienic laws — one has a chance, a better chance, of escape from diseases. We set up these hygienic laws because people do not know the needs of the physical being. If you allow the physical being to be unhampered by vital desires, or mental ideas, it would choose the thing it needs.
Disciple: It is a sort of instinct.
Disciple: The animals have it in a greater degree than man.
Sri Aurobindo: You may call it an instinct but when you become conscious, it is more than an instinct; it is the true consciousness in the physical being. The animals may have it more than man, but it is not complete because the animal has to rely on food which is not secure and so when it finds it is hungry, it does not always make a correct selection though it is more correct than in the case of man.
What you call 'laws' are mere habits. I have seen people who used to keep to all the so-called hygienic laws and yet they did not escape disease. They used to eat out of pure need for the body without any desire and yet they were always sick.
Disciple: A Sannyasi who used to eat only plantain and milk was always sick.
Disciple: Why do Sannyasis and Yogis pay so much attention to their food?
Sri Aurobindo: It is not for observing the hygienic laws. Their aim is to reduce the needs of the body and the Rajasic tendencies and so they want to minimise the needs of the physical body. They try to take Sattwic food.
Disciple: Many things that are considered hygienic would berejected by the Sannyasis as non-Sattwic.
Sri Aurobindo: They take vegetarian food. But all vegetables are not Sattwic.
Disciple: I took, in France, the food most forbidden for the Hindus and I found that it was not more Rajasic than the vegetarian food I had taken in India.
Sri Aurobindo: That is also my experience. Ithink it is more or less a psychological factor.
Disciple: The Gita has given a classification of what is Sattwic, Rajasic and Tamasic food.
Sri Aurobindo: But the Gita's classification is with regard more to the character of the food than to the food taken.
But about diseases there is, really speaking, a vital balance which each one has to find out for himself, as it is not the same for all; and even when one has secured the vital balance, provided there is no bad heredity, then one can say that one has the greatest chance of escaping diseases. But even that does not give man absolute immunity. Even people who somehow stumble into this vital balance, once they are attacked by a disease, due even to heredity, then they get ill most suddenly and succumb easily.
Disciple: Will it be possible to live only on a diet of mineral and synthesised food developed by science?
Disciple: No, it will not. Science always goes forward and finds that it has to go further. When they found protein they thought that all proteins had equal value in food; now they find that each protein has a different food-value. So it will always be.
Disciple: In the war we were given a soup-powder which was very nourishing and good.
Disciple: When gelatine was found it was thought that the problem of cheap and substantial food was solved because gelatine contains nitrogen. It was given to the patients in the hospitals with the result that some of them died. They have found that gelatine does not contain vitamins.
One of the latest ideas is that man can live on sunlight.
Disciple: And when you get a sun-stroke it means indigestion! (Laughter)
Disciple: Because science has not yet succeeded in preparing artificial food it does not mean that it will not succeed.
Disciple: Is it possible to live without food?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is. When I did my fast of about 23 days, while living in Chettiar's house, I very nearly solved the problem.
I could walk eight hours a day as usual. I continued my mental work and Sadhana also as usual and I found that I was not in the least weak at the end of the fast. But the flesh began to grow less and I did not find a clue to replacing the very material part that was reduced in the body.
When I broke the fast, then also I did not observe the usual rule of people who go on long fasts, of beginning with little food and so on. I began again with the same quantity as I used to take before.
Gandhi's method of fasting seems to me to be the most unsuitable, — of announcing beforehand and allowing all sorts of people to put in their counter-suggestions to him. I tried fasting once in jail, but that was when I used to sleep once in three nights. I lost ten pounds in weight, but I felt stronger at the end of ten days than I was before the fast. I could lift up a weight, which I could not before.
It was not for conquering sleep that I began the waking experiment, but because there was a pressure of Sadhana and I liked to do Sadhana rather than sleep.
Disciple: Do you think it is possible to do without food?
Sri Aurobindo: I believe it is perfectly possible. Only, I did not get the clue. But because I did not succeed, there is no reason why somebody else should not succeed. It is possible to supply the vital energy to the body to a very great extent. Only, the vital material part of the body seems to need to draw the vital energy from food. There must be some clue and I had solved the problem almost nine-tenths.
Disciple: Is it possible for man to draw the vital energy from animals? My grandfather used to say that he got vital energy from the horse he used to ride every day.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is possible. You can even draw it from man without riding him. But the easier process is to draw the vital energy from the universal vital plane. It is there all around you. There are two methods of drawing it: one is you exert your force and draw the vital energy from the universal, the other is to be passive and to allow it to flow into you. Formerly, I used to draw it. But nowadays I merely allow it to flow, remaining open to it.
Disciple: Is it easier to draw vital energy from man than from the universal?
Sri Aurobindo: It is not so easy as you think. There are conditions for drawing it from a man or supplying it to another man. But it is much more easy to draw it from the universal. The one fact is that in man the vital energy is limited, while the universal is inexhaustible. If you supply your vital force to another man you would be exhausted if you don't draw it from the universal.
Disciple: There are many stories about Tlbbati Baba's age and powers.
Sri Aurobindo: How old is he?
Disciple: One can't say; but Bibhuti Bhushan asked him and he said he was young at the time when the battle of Plassy was fought. It is said that he changed his Bengali body and took up that of a Tibetan.
Sri Aurobindo: But that is not physical immortality.
Disciple: He looks very old, his skin is dark and wrinkled. When I went to him it seemed as if he would not be able to get up — he was lying down — but he jumped up, quite like a healthy man.
Sri Aurobindo: That means he is keeping up his body with his vital force; one can always do that.
Disciple: But it is said that he acquired longevity by using certain drugs which are known among the Tibetans.
Sri Aurobindo: That is also possible. In the Himalayas there are herbs, I believe, which can give longevity and which are known by tradition to Sadhus and others living there.
But even supplying vital force to the body does not give one absolute immunity from diseases. If you are not on your guard, or if there is an accident, which you could not foresee, you may get a disease.
26 JUNE 1926
Disciple: You spoke yesterday about the lesser and the greater Gods.
Sri Aurobindo: I meant to imply a distinction, otherwise I would have used a different word.
Disciple: What is the distinction between them?
Sri Aurobindo: When I spoke of the lesser gods I meant the smaller gods who represent the principle of harmony in nature. In them you find not the straight, but the free movement towards the Light. They go from Light to Light. It is like the Asura, only the Asuras movement is perverse and violent, trying to take the kingdom of God by violence.
By the greater Gods I meant the Gods who preside over the universal manifestation. They are, really speaking, what the Veda calls "powers of the One". They are different.
Disciple: Take, for instance, Indra.
Sri Aurobindo: I was not thinking of any names when I spoke about them and they have nothing to do with the Puranic Devatas.
Disciple: Can we take the Vedic gods?
Sri Aurobindo: I was not even thinking of the Vedic gods. These smaller gods and Asuras are not the powers of the Supreme, the Divine; they are powers of the soul and formations on the Nature-plane of the universal vital.
Disciple: Is not the heaven in which man's soul is supposed to enjoy itself after death different from this plane of the smaller gods?
Sri Aurobindo: The 'heaven' of the religions is quite a different thing. It is the heaven of the vital plane. But apart from this religious heaven, the plane of the vital is full of charm and splendour of its own, and the beings of this plane have a splendour and greatness and knowledge of their own. Much of the poetry and art comes from that plane. I am not speaking of the perverse hostile vital world which generally comes in contact with our physical plane.
Disciple: If they are not hostile beings, as you say, then they can manifest grand things here.
Sri Aurobindo: But generally they are too arrogant to do that, they are too self-centred.
Disciple: But some of them do manifest themselves through men.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, some of them. But mostly when you are doing Sadhana you come across those that are hostile.
Disciple: What is the difference between their law of evolution and ours?
Sri Aurobindo: There is no law of evolution in them as in the human world. For instance, they are not limited by the physical consciousness as man is. There is more of the universal movement in them than in man. Their only evolution can be in two ways. I think they also want to change themselves into some higher beings. They can do it by a sort of Tapas of their own and arrive at a higher consciousness or they can do it by service; i.e., they can put their power at the service of the Truth and thus change.
Disciple: Why do they try to take hold of men?
Sri Aurobindo: First of all, they influence and dominate men in order to manifest their power and take possession of the physical plane. Secondly, they do so in order to get worship of men by curing diseases and posing as God. Thirdly, they do not merely dominate but take possession of men in order to take Bhoga of the physical plane.
Disciple: Why are these forces specially attracted to places where people are making a spiritual endeavour?
Sri Aurobindo: First of all, when you open yourself to some Truth which is Above, by that very effort you open yourself to the worlds that are behind in a much more powerful way than an ordinary man. That gives these forces a chance. Secondly, they want to frustrate any such effort. Thirdly, there are some forces among them in whom you find a mixture of two tendencies, something in them wants to get into the spiritual atmosphere and likes it, while another part of their being is opposed to it.
Disciple: How does a man open himself to these forces?
Sri Aurobindo: There are various ways: for instance, ambition, or lust, greed, vanity, arrogance, any number of these things through which these forces can influence man.
Théon believed that the vital world has precipitated down on the earth and there is bound to be struggle between the Truth and these forces. Either the Truth wins or they. After giving the fight — the last struggle — one of them would retire. At present the human being is more or less a field of this struggle; he is not a power of the soul. There are cases where a man actually incarnates these forces.
13 JULY 1926
Disciple: You said about Tirupati when he went wrong that a great and powerful vital being came for manifestation and it was necessary for the organisation of his vital plane. What is meant by organisation of the vital plane?
Sri Aurobindo: To bring about a harmony on that plane for effectuation. The vital being is for effective realisation.
Disciple: What would have been the nature of its manifestation if it had organised his vital life?
Sri Aurobindo: It brings in a greater power of realisation: a power of bringing about an inner change and then a change in your surroundings and then a power to change events. If these beings could realise themselves on the physical plane, then all the difficulties in the Sadhana would disappear.
Disciple: Is the coming down of such beings on every plane a necessity for the manifestation of the Supermind?
Sri Aurobindo: No, it is not a necessity.
Disciple: Do these kinds of beings know the Supermind?
Sri Aurobindo: These beings have no knowledge of the Supermind. But as they have a free intelligence they can be brought within the influence of the Supermind, and if they can surrender themselves to the Supermind, then they can help as instruments.
Disciple: This force was trying to come down into Tirupati with a great power and was insisting on the laws of its own plane and he was allowing the expression without any regard to the laws of the physical plane — is this true?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, these beings, as I have said, have got a free intelligence and they are not limited by the laws of the physical plane, — they have not what we call physical prudence; they have an objective in view and a great force to carry it out. They simply press down for their own realisation. It is these kinds of forces that are behind revolutions and great movements; they do not care how much is broken in the process. We see in history some men of genius who have been able to hold these beings in themselves. Sometimes when everything is broken and destroyed, the mind comes and presses down and tries to put things together and organise some kind of harmony.
Therefore the man who wants to hold them ought to have a sound physical mind which knows the contingencies of the physical plane and also has got the light of the Supermind. If the Supermind itself came, it would be a different thing, because it knows everything, and if you put the force under the light of the Supermind you can use it as an instrument.
Disciple: Where is that force gone now?
Sri Aurobindo: I don't know. It was there when he left Pondicherry; it did not leave its address with me! You can write to the Post Office of the vital plane! (Laughter)
Disciple: Why? Someone else can try to bring it down and break down in the effort? (Laughter)
Disciple: Can one know and see these forces?
Sri Aurobindo: Of course, you can. If something in you can put itself in touch with these planes you can know them and see them. I hope you don't believe that your physical self is the only being in you. These forces have their own plane and they are not all the time busy with your earth-plane. You must not exaggerate the importance of the earth-plane.
Even for us the external, physical life of man does not matter much. Not that the earth-plane is not important. It is important, according to what you can put into it. Otherwise, how is the physical life of man better than that of an ant? In order to bring down any higher spiritual force into the earth-plane you require to sit down to it, you have to call down and hold the Power in you. You have to allow it to organise your being and transform it. Then you can think of action.
Therefore I say, it would be foolish to expect me to go to the Bengal Council and work there. But perhaps your physical mind thinks that going and working in the Council is, perhaps, more important than anything else! But your inmost being may have much more important work to do than that.
Disciple: You said that man's life on the physical plane is not so important. But there are so many good things in man; how can we compare him to an ant?
Sri Aurobindo: In what way is the physical man superior to an ant?
Disciple: There is art, there is literature.
Sri Aurobindo: Humanity is not organised for art!
Disciple: And even art does not come from the physical plane!
Disciple: You spoke of the vital beings living on their own plane. Do they also fight each other on their own plane?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. That is what is meant by the struggle between the angels and the devils in the Bible. The being I spoke of with regard to T was not from the hostile vital world, — it was from the higher level of the vital plane.
Disciple: What is meant by the Supermind? Is it what is called parā śakti?
Sri Aurobindo: Para Shakti is not Supermind. There are above the Supramental Power other ranges like the Ananda Consciousness. You can say that the Supermind is the organising power of the Divine which is behind all this manifestation. It is the Supermind which supports the whole universal movement.
Disciple: Can one say that the Supramental Power is also "one's own" power in essence — as we say of mind "my mind"? Can I speak of "my supermind"?
Sri Aurobindo: What is your mind? It is merely an organisation, for a particular purpose, of the universal mind. So long as you are in the Ignorance you go on saying I, I, My, My — and nothing interests you more than that. But when you get to the Supermind you know that it is all false. Then you know your Self; the Jiva knows itself and also sees the mould of Prakriti. You also know the Higher Power above and so you don't commit the mistake which the mind does. Even when the yogi speaks of "my power" or "my work" it is for mere convenience. All the time he is conscious of the Divine Power that is working through him. It looks more pretentious to say "the Divine Power that is working through me".
Disciple: Without using I and My one cannot even speak.
Disciple: Can we not say that the Supramental is already working in everything, because it is behind all?
Sri Aurobindo: It is not the Supramental Power that is working at present in the universe; it supports this universal movement, but it is not working directly. If the Supramental Power were not there you could not deal with the material forces with exactness as you do at present. You can do so because the Supermind is there in Matter.
Disciple: Is the Supermind an instrument?
Sri Aurobindo: It is a consciousness and if you can bring that consciousness into mind, life and body, you can perfect the instruments.
Disciple: Is it not possible for man to manifest the whole of Para Shakti? What is the Ananda plane in life?
Sri Aurobindo: He may be able to manifest it in the future, when the Supermind has become a stable achievement. But the present organisation of human nature is quite unable to bear it. It is too infinite for man. I am not speaking of the mental infinite. I am speaking of the Sachchidananda on its own highest level. You can imagine what would happen to man if the whole of the infinite Ananda came down upon him, — when you know that even a drop of it coming to the mind sends him flying and dancing and crying! When only a particle of Ananda descends you get the paramahaṁsa, jaḍa, bāla, unmatta or piśāca types, i.e., the inert, the childlike, the mad or perverse, and the devilish.
Disciple: It is, perhaps, because a fragment comes that man is upset — all the impurities in his nature are thrown up with the Ananda.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. If the highest Supermind came it would know everything; it knows the gradations, the stages, that are necessary, the time and the conditions.
17 AUGUST 1926
Disciple: What is the akṣara consciousness of which the Gita speaks?
Sri Aurobindo: It is the immutable, impersonal Brahmic Consciousness — it is the basis of calm and equality and universal passivity. It is an aspect of the Transcendent, the Puruṣottama.
Disciple: What is the gain in attaining this consciousness in Sadhana?
Sri Aurobindo: An impersonal attitude, calm and equality — it can give you complete freedom from nature, from all bondage.
Disciple: Why does the Supreme take up the impersonal status or attitude?
Sri Aurobindo: Because it is necessary for creation, as a support for the universal nature, to maintain all the play of the universal forces. He supports all equally as the akṣara.
Disciple: You spoke about the plane of the Gods. How can one reach that plane?
Sri Aurobindo: The key for it lies in a certain knack. One has to ascend to it.
Disciple: What are the conditions of attaining to it?
Sri Aurobindo: Conditions? There are no conditions. I don't see in what way it would help you even if I said anything. Well, the first condition is that you can't approach the true Gods with your ego.
Disciple: And the vital gods?
Sri Aurobindo: Gods are on every plane: 'Gods' is a very wide term. It has no fixed meaning, it is rather loose. The vital gods can give you power, remove your economic and other difficulties — of course, conditionally.
Disciple: Conditionally in what sense?
Sri Aurobindo: For instance, they can give you power, but you have to satisfy their conditions and worship them.
Disciple: The Asura also gives power.
Sri Aurobindo: The Asura gives you nothing. He only uses you for his purpose and, when your use is over, throws you aside. But the vital gods are sometimes helpful in spiritual life. One must be able to go beyond them. But they oppose you if you try to overpass them; they put obstacles in your way and try to keep you to them. It was the purpose of Indra sending apsarās to entice the Rishis, the great seers and yogins.
Disciple: I thought it was only a fable.
Sri Aurobindo: That is the European mentality in you that says so. The form is that of a fable, but there is a truth behind it. For instance, the Vishwamitra-and-Indra story contains a spiritual truth. If you come out successful in their hard test then the gods approve of your going beyond them.
Disciple: The Asuras are also of divine origin?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes; and they serve the divine purpose in their own way.
Disciple: Can one say that the true Gods are the powers of the Divine?
Sri Aurobindo: They are the personalities of the Divine.
Disciple: On what plane are they?
Sri Aurobindo: They are on the Supramental plane and above.
Disciple: Above the Supramental?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. Do you think that Supermind is the highest plane?
Disciple: The highest consciousness is said to be that of the Supreme Sachchidananda.
Sri Aurobindo: The highest is what we call Purushottama, but man can get to the Ananda plane only.
Disciple: To what plane does Krishna of the Vaishnavites belong?
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean by Krishna?
Disciple: According to the Vaishnavas, Krishna belongs to the Ananda plane; they indicate it by saying that it is far beyond the akṣara.
Disciple: Is it true that if one wants to attain to the Gods he must do it through the psychic?
Sri Aurobindo: There! You have got another clue.
Disciple: I want to know more about it so as to have another clue. I don't want to knock at the wrong door.
Sri Aurobindo: There is another way, if you want to try. Find your own highest self, which is not your ego and is not at the same time the Atman. Then you get to the plane of the Gods.
Disciple: Some believe that the true self is the Jiva and if one is on that plane then he is helped by the Gods.
Disciple: Is the highest personal self of man a god?
Sri Aurobindo: Man is not a god. But he can attain to the plane of the Gods and there he has his divine Self — the Jiva — which is a portion of the Divine. If you knock at their gates with desire, they show you on to the vital gods.
Disciple: There is a belief in the Trinity among the Christians. There are said to be seven Gods and each soul is an emanation of one of the seven Gods. I wonder why seven only?
Sri Aurobindo: Perhaps because we can see seven, the rest we can't.
Disciple: Sri Krishna is described as having a blue light with lightning flashing behind it.
Sri Aurobindo: Blue is the characteristic colour of the spiritual plane and it is special to Krishna. Krishna belongs in the fullness of his divine Personality to the Ananda plane and it is there that you get the fullness.
Disciple: To what plane do the Gods worshipped by the Hindus belong?
Disciple: Do they belong to the vital plane?
Sri Aurobindo: No; they are worshipped in the vital way, but their conception is much larger than that and they generally go up to the higher mental plane.
When the European mind leaves materialism, it takes the vital gods as the true gods.
Disciple: Do the laws of Matter change?
Sri Aurobindo: Physical cells change and the same thing that gives pain gives Ananda.
Disciple: That may be possible in Life manifested in Matter, but in the pure Matter, in the domain of chemistry and physics?
Sri Aurobindo: Why not ? We are speaking of the material part of the human consciousness. What is a law? It means a certain balance among universal forces under certain conditions. If you change the conditions you get a different result. It is not by a miracle that you change what you call a law.
Disciple: The disintegration of radium is unaffected by anything we know of.
Sri Aurobindo: That means you have not got to the thing behind the electron; the electron is not the last word.
Disciple: It seems the electrons have life but no age and we can't separate the old from the young.
Sri Aurobindo: Do you believe that there can be life in a watch?
Disciple: Children believe that!
Sri Aurobindo: And I agree with children. The watches behave differently with different men. It is also certain they answer to man's thought and will.
Disciple: So watches have life!
Sri Aurobindo: You are getting surprises one by one.
Disciple: Flowers have souls, watches have life! It is baffling. I have heard that motor cars have also life.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes — engines and tools also.
Disciple: What is called 'fatigue' in metals, may it not be a sign of life?
Sri Aurobindo: Fatigue is a sign of life. There is a consciousness also in metals, as well as mind. Life is everywhere.
22 AUGUST 1926
Sri Aurobindo (turning to a disciple) : You asked yesterday about the forms of the Gods and whether they have fixed forms on their own plane. I was thinking it over and I am inclined to believe that they have fixed forms.
Disciple: It is said that each God has his nitya-rūpa — eternal form.
Sri Aurobindo: I think so. One cannot see that unless one passes entirely out of the human consciousness. They have forms by which they distinguish themselves from other Gods and also through which they express what they are. It seems there are three elements that enter into this question: first, the form we see may be the reflection of the true or nitya form — which may not be entire and which may not be the sarfie for all the planes. It may vary according to the plane on which it is reflected. Secondly, the mind or consciousness of the Bhakta may contribute something to it. Thirdly, it may be a mixture of the two.
Disciple: Have the forms of the Gods any resemblance to the human form?
Sri Aurobindo: Not necessarily. But those who approach the plane of the Gods through the impersonal attitude without stopping at Sachchidananda-consciousness arrive, when they have passed beyond the mental consciousness, to a plane where they see the Gods in forms which resemble the human form. That is, perhaps, the reason why in the Veda we find the name puruṣa given to the Gods.
24 AUGUST 1926
Disciple: The world of the true Gods, you said, is the Supramental.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it is somewhere there.
Disciple: Is it in the Supermind or does it go even beyond it?
Sri Aurobindo: It begins in the Supermind and goes further. We need not concern ourselves with it. It is trouble enough getting there.
Disciple: Who created them?
Sri Aurobindo: What is the meaning of putting such silly questions? They are from the beginning of history.
Disciple: What is the difference between the personality of a God and that of a man?
Sri Aurobindo: The same as between your personality and that of a lizard.
Disciple: Personality means being and nature.
Sri Aurobindo: It means various beings and various natures. Different personalities may combine and form one personality.
Disciple: Has the collective personality of India been always there?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, as far as history goes. Idon't know what must have been in the Simian period.
Disciple: What is the nature of this collective, or if Imay say so, super-personality?
Sri Aurobindo: You have to look at the characteristics of the Indian people to understand that super-personality must be something that represents them. When you are on the other side of mind you can look at it from beyond and see how this works below here; but so long as we are here, in the mind, we have to proceed from the law of our present nature.
Disciple: I wanted to ask whether the nation that would emerge in India today would have the same characteristics as the nations in Europe or would it have something different?
Sri Aurobindo: It can't be the same. Evidently it would be something more.
Disciple: I had a discussion with X; he argued that we had no such national consciousness as in Europe and I maintained that we had something more.
Sri Aurobindo: Perhaps Europe has no such well-defined collective personality as India has. But in Europe you do have several clearly defined national personalities. For instance, England has a definite national personality; so also has France. They are trying to create some sort of collective personality, but they have not yet succeeded in giving form to it.
While in India it is quite different. It is a well-defined collective personality which is already there and all these various personalities and types of the Indian nation are its formations, so to say. It is that which expresses itself in them.
Disciple: The differences between different parts of India are variations of the same collective personality?
Sri Aurobindo: It is the same as with the Welsh, the Scots and the English, or the Bavarian and the Prussian, in the same nationality. If there were not this clear collective personality it would have been difficult to create a political nation in India.
But take the case of Asia. There is an attempt at the formation of a collective Asiatic personality. But if anyone made just now an effort to unite them under a political unity, the result would be a disaster, a ghastly failure.
Disciple: Is it not a fact that the national consciousness evolves in the face of common danger, and so there is an idea that Asia would unite when it has to fight against Europe, and humanity would unite when mankind will have to fight against the people of another planet? (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: That is a vital way of creating unity. Even in Europe, though there is no collective personality, yet there is a common mentality, a common culture and a common attitude against Asiatics and Africans.
Disciple: Plato says that each form has its own Idea — that is, behind the form is a fixed Idea of the type and it is that which persists while it is the individual that varies. The genus remains the same on the plane of Idea.
Sri Aurobindo: But where is the Idea?
Disciple: In Plato. (Laughter)
Disciple: I do not suppose Plato meant a mental abstraction by his Idea. It may mean "creative conception".
Sri Aurobindo: Plato had very mathematical ideas about these things. If he meant by it the creative conception then there are several things in it. First of all, it is not a mental idea but what I call the Real-Idea: that is, Idea with a Reality and a Power. Now, corresponding to every form there is what may be called the archetype, the type-form, and it already exists in the Real-Idea before it exists in matter. Everything exists first in consciousness and then in matter.
Disciple: Could that be the Mahat-Brahma of which the Gita speaks?
Sri Aurobindo: I do not know if Plato had some dim intimation of the Supramental; but as his mind was mathematical he cast it into rigid rational and mental forms. That was the Greek mind.
Disciple: The Buddhists have an idea that there are Gods without form — there are Rupa Devas and Arupa Devas. What could that mean?
Sri Aurobindo: I do not know Buddhist mythology. But what do you mean by Arupa Loka?
Disciple: A plane of consciousness where the Gods have no forms, perhaps. Or they have forms which are so different from man's, that for man they are no forms at all.
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean by the Gods having no forms?
Disciple: On the plane of the Gods there are no forms, perhaps.
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean? The origin of all the forms is there. Even if you call it Arupa Loka still there must be some form. The Gods there must be distinguishing themselves from one another and that means they must have forms. If you say they have no 'human' form it is understandable. All forms need not be human.
Disciple: They say that all abstractions belong to the Arupa Loka. For instance, the idea of beauty.
Sri Aurobindo: Beauty is not an abstraction. It is a power of the Supreme on the plane above the Mind. On the mental plane you have abstractions. It is the mind's way of representing realities of planes higher than its own, but behind these abstractions there is a reality. On the plane above the mind there are no abstractions; there are realities and powers. For instance, you form an abstract idea in the mind about the Supermind. When you get to the Supermind you find it is not an abstraction at all. It is more intensely concrete than Matter, something quite overwhelming in its concreteness. That is why I called it the Real-Idea and not an abstract idea. In that sense there is nothing more concrete than God. If we were on the pure mental plane we would find Mind quite concrete and real. But as we are on the physical plane we always think that mind is abstract.
Before the Supermind Matter dwindles into a shadow!
Disciple: What is that concreteness like?
Sri Aurobindo: The sense of solidity, mass. That is perhaps what the Veda meant when it said, "Agni is wider of light, and concrete of body." You can say that the Supermind is harder than diamond and yet more fluid than gas.
Disciple: This super-personality or collective personality that presides over India.
Sri Aurobindo: I thought that was finished — you wheel round to that suddenly?
Disciple: Can it be called a god?
Disciple: Better, a goddess?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. Why not? But she may not be a supramental goddess.
Disciple: Then what else can she be?
Sri Aurobindo: She may be an emanation from God.
Disciple: What kind of God?
Sri Aurobindo: Driving me into a tight corner? It depends upon the national characteristics and so many other things. When you go beyond Mind then you can speak from outside how the whole thing here looks. So long as we speak from the lower triplicity [Mind, Life, Body], we can only say this much.
Disciple: Can individuals by uniting themselves evolve a collective personality?
Sri Aurobindo: That is like the question which someone put the other day: whether the egg is first or the hen, and I had to say: "Both together and the cock." (Laughter) There must be the collective personality for the individual to be and vice versa!
6 NOVEMBER 1926
Disciple: It is reported that Ramakrishna used to say about VIvekananda that he was an aṁśa — portion — of Shiva. What is the truth in that?
Sri Aurobindo: There is some truth in it. Each of these Gods has, so to say, his own group — what they call gaṇas or partial powers, — each member of which represents something of the God. For example, Tirupati, who could not succeed in his Sadhana here at Pondicherry, would have embodied one of the four bodyguards of the Higher Power.[2]
It is possible that there may be a great complexity in manifestation — one can manifest different godheads in different pans of the being. It is necessary to take these inner truths simply and in a straightforward manner without making any fuss. The external, human personality must not be disturbed; it often tries to cinematograph the thing like some modern organisations. That is exactly the way to frustrate it. Making noise is another thing one must avoid. The vital desire for name and fame, the cinematographic tendency, all should be washed away clean. There should be no ego if there is to be a divine manifestation. All noise should only be incidental. I spoke about the world of the Gods because not to speak of it would be dangerous. I spoke of it so that the mind may understand the thing if it comes down. I am trying to bring it down into the physical as it can no longer be delayed and then things may happen. Formerly, to speak of it would have been undesirable, but now not to speak might be dangerous.
Disciple: Can it, in any way, be retarded by us?
Sri Aurobindo: From the very highest standpoint it is all settled and your 'yes' or 'no' matters little. From another standpoint you have to see all the obstacles and take proper account of them in yourself. There is a middle standpoint — the mean, so to say — in which you can take it like this: the Higher Power is coming down and you have to receive it and, as I said, you can make it easy or difficult for it to come down.
Disciple: How can we do that?
Sri Aurobindo: By aspiration, and then by an opening which allows it in you. Also by keeping yourself aware of the obstacles in your own nature and asking the Power to remove them. You must be wide awake to these things.
9 NOVEMBER 1926
Disciple: Do you promise that the world of the Gods will descend?
Sri Aurobindo: I don't promise anything. "If the Supramental comes down," that is what I say.
Disciple: Can it be obstructed by us?
Sri Aurobindo: No. Yet you can help it.
Disciple: Would it not create a noise in the world?
Sri Aurobindo: You must not expect to make noise. It is a silent work. Publicity would attract hostile forces. You can take up external work only when it is in you: when you are doing the Sadhana in the mind then outer activities like the Arya and writing, etc., can go on. But when I came down to the vital I stopped all that.
Disciple: Is it true that the Higher Power has no human considerations for the Adhar in which it descends, because for the Power it does not seem to matter if the Adhar breaks?
Sri Aurobindo: The best is to have the Mahasaraswati and Maheshwari aspects working. Formerly I used to work in that way. Many would not be able to bear Mahakali — only a few can pull with impunity. All the four aspects have to be harmonised in us. The ideal condition is to have in front any one aspect of the Power that is necessary for action, with the three others behind it.
Disciple: What would be the significance of the Supermind to humanity?
Sri Aurobindo: What it will mean to mankind may be known later on, not now.
NOVEMBER 1926
Summary based on some talks before 24th November about the descent of the Gods.
Sri Aurobindo: There is the Supreme beyond description, who manifests himself as Sat, Chit, Ananda; in this Sat is the universal individuality of beings. Then comes the Supermind with its four Maha Shaktis, great powers. In the Supermind unity is the governing principle.
Then comes the world of the Gods, below the Supermind and behind the manifestation. The Gods of the Hindu culture — Shiva, Vishnu, etc. — are names and representations in the mind, but they point to the Gods who represent the Divine Principles governing the manifestation of the universe. There is a hierarchy of these beings.
Below this is the manifested universe. The purpose of this manifestation is to go back to the Ananda.
The Devas and the Asuras — the Gods and the Titans — manifest in man to lead this world or creation to the goal. The Devas manifest to effect a new principle or bring about a change.
The Avatar does not come to do that kind of work, i.e., the work of the Gods. He comes to uphold the Dharma. Some beings also come with him for the purpose.
In T s case the higher being marked him out as a possible instrument, but his own conditions were not ready. The internal being must be awake and conscious of the connection and the surface-being should not stand in the way — then everything is all right. But if the surface-being is egoistic then there is a crash.
The world of the Gods is above the psychic world. When one says an arhsa — portion — of a God manifests in a certain man, it is the man who develops into that God. The Gods do not evolve; they are principles or powers of the Divine. The Gods preside over the universe, they bring their qualities and powers to change the world.
In T's case there was a grand, magnificent being. It brought a change even in the physical for a moment. It came and went.
The Asura suggests pride and ruin at any cost.
A Supramental being comes down to bring a change, not to make noise.
I am trying to bring down the Supramental; things will happen, conditions for its descent will be created. Then there will be no obscurity in the vital or the physical. From the highest standpoint the coming of the Supramental is decided, you can't stand in the way. From the standpoint where we are working, it is an advantage to be aware of the difficulties and to take account of them, and deal with them. The middle path is to know that it is coming and you can make the process more or less smooth.
The Supramental is coming into the world and is bringing on a provisional order — not yet the true order. It rushes where there is an opening. If the opening closes and the hostile forces arise, it may utilise the hostile forces in spite of themselves. There are disturbances in the atmosphere due to wrong ways. Some can pull the Power with impunity.
There will be some effect on humanity, but humanity is not the only consideration in creation. Supermind is not yet a part of manifestation. Its effect on man will depend upon what is thrown away and what is retained when it is established in our midst. Above the movement of forces it is already intended, but is not evident. In the movement of forces the decision to accept the Supermind is not yet there.
[1] The rickshawala. Pousse-pousse, the vehicle then in use, was pushed by the man from behind while the passenger steered it.
[2] In those days the Mother was trying to manifest four overmental Godheads: Aspiration, Adoration, Faith and Purity. Tirupati was to embody Faith.
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