object:2.07 - On Congress and Politics
book class:Evening Talks With Sri Aurobindo
author class:A B Purani
subject class:Integral Yoga
class:chapter
ON CONGRESS AND POLITICS
ON CONGRESS AND POLITICS
7 MARCH 1924
The Khilafat had ended two days back, on the 5th.
Disciple: The Khilafat is steam-rollered.
Sri Aurobindo: It is quite right that it should be gone; the new republic seems thorough and solid in its working.
Disciple: I doubt if the Turks were right in taking the step because now the opinion of other Muslim countries would go against them.
Sri Aurobindo: Opinion can go to the dogs! It was not by opinion that Kamal defeated the Greeks!
Disciple: But would he be now popular in Turkey?
Sri Aurobindo: He does not care for popularity.
Disciple: The allegiance of other Muslims to the Khilafat had all along been theoretical and the tie of sympathy very weak and had no hold on life. As a matter of fact, it was the Indian Muslims who fought against the Turks in Mesopotamia during the First World War.
Sri Aurobindo: The Emir of Afghanistan is the only external power to whom the Indian Muslims can look up to.
Disciple: There are tendencies among the Muslims showing that fanaticism may disintegrate.
Sri Aurobindo: That is not sufficient because it would not change their whole outlook. What is wanted is some new religious movement among the Mahomedans which would remodel their religion and change the stamp of their temperament. For instance, Bahaism in Persia which has given quite a different stamp to their temperament.
On the 6th it was announced that the Khalifa had to leave Turkey within ten days. Reuter had cabled: "The chief wife of the Khalifa was prostrate and the chief eunuch has been fasting for the last three days." Sri Aurobindo laughed loudly saying "How funny this Reuters correspondent seems to be!"
Ismet Pasha had remarked: "We are in Constantinople because we fought the Greeks and the Khalifa. The sympathy of the people was due to our being strong and not to the presence of the Khalifa."
Sri Aurobindo: The first four were real Khalifas. Afterwards it became a political institution.
Disciple: The fasting of the chief eunuch is a form of Satyagraha! But the deposition of the Khalifa is dramatic.
Sri Aurobindo: It is rather comic than dramatic.
The Pondicherry politics came in for discussion. Monin Naik from Chandernagore arrived today (7th).
Sri Aurobindo: Our people have not yet got the political sense. If they can once break the hegemony of the white clique here then they can attempt anything afterwards.
Disciple: I tried to explain to our Chandernagore friends that all the Indians in the Council must join and shake off the white people. Then they can do anything. But somehow they did not take it well. Our people lack backbone.
Sri Aurobindo: Not only backbone but common sense.
8 MARCH 1924
Disciple: The Servant has written a long leader on the Khilafat.
Sri Aurobindo: What does it say?
Disciple: That it is a momentous thing.
Disciple: What is momentous — the Khilafat or its abolition?
Disciple: The Servant's writing about it is a momentous thing.(Laughter)
Disciple: Abul Kalam and Yakub Husain are satisfied with Kamal's action, while Pickthall and Fazlul Huque have found fault with Kamal; they have even abused and accused him.
Disciple: There is a proposal to have a Khalifa who would be only the religious head.
Sri Aurobindo: Nobody will acknowledge the Khalifa unless he has power. Did you read Gandhi's letter to Mahomed Ali? He almost congratulates him on having his daughter sick! He does not mean it evidently, but a very strange way of writing.
And what is this new paper, the Voice of India?
Disciple: It is edited by Natarajan who is also conducting theSocial Reformer in Bombay.
Disciple: When he first started the Social Reformer he was called Nitrogen and therefore an inert, odourless and colourless gas!
Sri Aurobindo: Perhaps a very good description of him.
Disciple: It seems that the Independents and the Swarajists may join in the obstruction against Government.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. There seems to be a chance. Olivier's salt-tax speech has something to do with it.
11 MARCH 1924
Disciple: Did you read Mahomed Ali's statement about the Khilafat?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, Isaw it, but Idid not go through the whole statement.
Disciple: He says that the new assembly at Angora [now Ankara] has no right to depose the Khalifa and that now there is even more need of the Khilafat agitation in India!
Disciple: But what does he propose to do over and above writing and speaking?
Sri Aurobindo: He says that the lion of Islam is not dead though the jackals are shouting around it.
Disciple: It would be interesting now to watch the development since Yakub Husain and others have favoured the Angora decision and Mahomed Ali opposes it. There may be two parties among the Muslims. The Servant points out that the new republic is secular and not religious.
Sri Aurobindo: In the first four Khalifas there was the reality of the Khilafat. They were the centres of Islamic culture and had some spirituality. After that the Umayad and other dynasties came and it became more and more religious and external. When it passed into the hands of the Turks it became a mere political institution without the fact of it.
Disciple: The nationalists seem to be in the majority in the Indian Central Assembly.
Sri Aurobindo: It does not seem to be certain yet; there is every chance that the budget would be thrown out.
Disciple: At last Dr. Gaur has fallen off (fromthe nationalist group).
Sri Aurobindo: I knew that he would. He has nothing very deep in him, only a gift of speech and sometimes he tries to show himself more intelligent than he is. He was with me at Cambridge and I have heard him speak at the College Union. He repeated during one speech three times: "The Egyptians rose up to a man!"
Disciple: In Nagpur they have granted Rs. 2/- per month for a minister's pay!
Sri Aurobindo: At last the Government has come out and the Governor is taking over the 'transferred' subjects.
Disciple: In Bengal also the Governor has vetoed the resolution of the Assembly.
Sri Aurobindo: The veto is with regard to the transferred subjects. This concerns the 'reserved' subjects. The Government has simply to ignore the resolution and the budget is to be passed. By the way, what is the average income of an Indian?
Disciple: Rs. 30/- per annum.
Disciple: Rs. 2 ½ per month.
Sri Aurobindo: The New India is particular about giving the average income to the ministers! If the average income increases then his pay also increases. Very fair proposal!
Disciple: So, now there is notification and taking over the transferred departments also. These Reforms are very funny! They can allow and withdraw whatever they like from the transferred subjects. It means they can do anything they like. Wonderful Reforms, while the whole power is in the hands of the Englishmen! (Turning to Sri Aurobindo) Do you remember what you said when the Reforms were proposed? You said: Everything given by the British up till now is a shadow and these Reforms are a huge shadow!
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, I remember. [1]
14 MARCH 1924
Today Sri Aurobindo expressed disgust at the lukewarm attitude of Pandit Malaviya: "The whole affair is disgusting; it is characteristic of our country. They may wreck the party."
Someone raised the topic of sanitation in Calcutta.
Disciple: Every city deserves to be burnt down after an interval of 300 years according to Charaka. Calcutta is due to be burnt.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, after some years it becomes physically and morally unfit to live in.
Disciple: Mrs. Besant is bringing up each and every problem of India in her papers and at the end always insists on her idea of calling a National Convention. That seems her panacea for everything! And the non-cooperators have been doing nothing but opposing the Swarajists.
Sri Aurobindo: What the non-cooperators are doing is simply absurd.
Disciple: Some Congressmen in the Godavari District have left their propaganda of non-cooperation and taken to village reconstruction because enthusiasm has waned among the people. No one comes to attend meetings, no money is subscribed to the Tilak Swaraj Fund. Khadi does not evoke response.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, I had that experience in 1909 when I was in Bengal. That gave me an insight into my countrymen. After the arrests and deportations we used to hold meetings in the College Square and some sixty or seventy persons used to attend, mostly passers-by; and I had the honour to preside over several of those meetings!
Disciple: In Gujarat we had the same experience in the National Educational programme. The public would not support an independent national school or college.
A disciple reported the arrival of a Bengali teacher at Pondicherry to see Sri Aurobindo. He had joined the non-cooperation movement and stayed in the Sabarmati Ashram for seven months and learnt spinning and weaving. He was going to Rajkot as the headmaster of the national school there.
Disciple: He is very solicitous about humanity and wants your Yoga to help humanity.
Sri Aurobindo: Humanity has, fortunately, a sound head, and so it is safe from its saviours.
Disciple: There are so many of them; and yet the wonder is that humanity is still living!
Sri Aurobindo: Quite so; it is living in spite of them!
In the afternoon a Pondicherrian who had returned from Saigon came and wanted that Sri Aurobindo should cure his wife by his yogic power.
Disciple: I told him that it was not possible. Then he said "What is the use of his Yoga if he does not help humanity?"
Sri Aurobindo: Humanity means his wife or what?
8 APRIL 1924
Disciple: Did you read Gandhiji's opposition to Council entry?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, he is opposed to it because it is against Ahimsa! It is negative and not constructive. The same was said by Tagore about non-cooperation!
Disciple: Rajagopalachari says one yard of Khaddar means one step towards Swaraj.
Sri Aurobindo: It will be a very long way in that case.
Disciple: I hear that Gandhiji is getting text-books prepared for schools.
Sri Aurobindo: One book will begin with how to grow cotton and end with lessons on weaving, another on cooking and another on how to clean latrines.
Disciple: The last would be in the higher standards! (Laughter)In his commentary on the Gita he tries to show that the war is between good and evil tendencies in man, — it is only a figure of speech.
Sri Aurobindo: So, Sri Krishna says to Arjuna: "You may kill the bad passions or evil tendencies but do not be sorry, really they are not going to be killed!" Who kills whom? Thus the whole thing is an allegory. But is it?
9 APRIL 1924
Disciple: Did you see Gandhiji's reply to the sub-assistant surgeons letter requesting him to give up the field of action because of his ill-health? It also says that he should retire because of his need of spirituality and also because of his use of medical aid against his own declared opinions.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, I read it. There is the same mixture of which I have already spoken, only by his reading of books, I am afraid, he has made it worse. There was a mixture of Tolstoy, Christianity and Jainism. Now he has added the Veda, Koran and Gita to it.
Disciple: Did he not see that Ahimsa applied that way would not succeed?
Sri Aurobindo: Why? That is his gospel. People have to see if they want to accept. It may fail in the collectivity but he may and can follow it individually.
But, as I say, the whole turn of his mind is like that of the Europeans. I doubt if he ever had the grasp of the ideas of Indian philosophy. Besides, the whole trend of his being is vital, he always tries to put things into life and make a rule of it. That again is the European tendency — everything to be turned into a code, a rule. Only, he puts it in Indian terms.
I don't see any use of his saying: "So long as others have not got good Khaddar I will not use fine Khaddar." It may come to saying: "So long as others are not educated I shall not learn, or for that matter, so long as others do not get food I will starve."
Disciple: There are disparaging reports about the political situation in Maharashtra and Andhra. People's enthusiasm has ebbed and it is hard to find office-bearers for the Congress.
Sri Aurobindo: Our people are wonderful — they always want some excitement. They have not yet realised that politics is a serious affair and of long breath. They say: "Give us Swaraj in one year or sensation!"
Disciple: I have been in the non-cooperation movement and worked in it for some time. My own feeling is that Gandhiji would look up to St. Francis, who licked the wounds of the lepers, as his ideal.
Sri Aurobindo: Licking the leper would do the leper no good and may do harm to St. Francis.
Even in these days, apart from what our people did in the past, the Indian way is to do things but not to make it a rule of life. They do certain things to get rid of the obstructing Sanskara.
Disciple: That is what Ramakrishna did — going and sweeping the quarters of the untouchables — to get rid of the Sanskara of the Brahmin and his feeling of superiority. He did it as a part and process of Sadhana.
Sri Aurobindo: That is what I mean by the Indian way — I said that once before.
31 MAY 1924
The topic was Gandhiji's statement that the Swarajists must walk out of the Congress. For being a Congressman one has to believe in the five-fold boycott, then one has to spin, and stop drinking if he is doing it and unite with the Muslims.
Disciple: You saw the statement of Mahatmaji?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. He says in effect: "First, you have to believe in the five boycotts; I tell you it is hard and not an easy thing to do."
Disciple: Then to spin is harder still.
Sri Aurobindo: If you comply with the requirements he says Swaraj can be easily attained, though he does not give the timelimit.
Disciple: The argument he gives is that two parties cannot carry on the Government.
Sri Aurobindo: In modern times, many European governments are carried on by coalitions.
Disciple: He seems to be trying some kind of yoga also.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. Do you know anything about it? Isaw his article on Brahmacharya but it did not contain consistent thought. Once he says that a strong mind has a strong body and then he says that as one progresses in mental development the body must get weak. He also finds a connection between lust and taste.
Disciple: He wants to stick to the mental consciousness and to the ordinary nature and tries to master the movements of nature from the mental consciousness helped, if possible, by prayer. He has hardly even a cursory acquaintance with the division of Purusha and Prakriti, so necessary to establish the basis of the spiritual life.
Disciple: The prayers in the Ashram are a fixed routine.
Disciple: You know, I once conducted a prayer in Nava Vidhan Brahmo Samaj! It was greatly appreciated while I uttered absolute platitudes, I believe.
Sri Aurobindo: They only appreciated it, that's all?
Disciple: No, they said: "It was poetic and very fine!"
Sri Aurobindo: This kind of prayer is current in England. It is very external and mechanical.
7 JUNE 1924
Rasputin, the Court mystic of Russia was the subject of the talk for some time. This Rasputin had suddenly become a spiritual man. He was a villager and suddenly got some power of the vital plane. He influenced people with his eyes. He had used his power for lower ends.
Disciple: There is a pronouncement today about the eligibility to the A.I.C.C. (All India Congress Committee).
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it makes very strange reading! This method of purification which is proposed seems absurd. One can follow up this kind of proposal by saying, "All the members must produce a certificate that they have cooked their own food, cleaned their own latrine etc."
Disciple: Sir Sankaran Nair has lost his case against O'Dwyer.
Sri Aurobindo: It was a foregone conclusion.
17 JUNE 1924
Disciple: Tagore's internationalism seems to have received a rude shock in China at the passing of the Japanese Exclusion Bill.
Disciple: It seems from his writing that he is an internationalist first and looks on nationalism as something dispensable.
Sri Aurobindo: But you must have nations before you can have 'inter' between them.
Disciple: He seems to argue the other way round: if you work for internationalism then nationalism will take care of itself.
Disciple: It does not take care of itself — others take care of it; that is the difficulty.
Sri Aurobindo: Internationalism is all right, we accept it on its own plane. But we must have nations first.
Disciple: When he finds people do not accept his idea he says: "Great ideals can afford to wait — their failure in such matters means nothing."
Sri Aurobindo: It seems only a mental construction without any idea of the reality. In this way sometimes people injure the very cause for which they stand. I should be on good terms with my neighbour, but that does not mean that I should allow him to come into my house and occupy it.
Disciple: He advises the Indians to extend the hand of friendship and help Europe in its forlorn condition.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, it will take the hand and give a kick in return.
Disciple: Or perhaps it will take the hand and search our pockets.
Sri Aurobindo: There is nothing left in the pockets now.
Disciple: It is like some people who say we must help the poor; therefore, let us become poor ourselves.
19 JUNE 1924
Disciple: The Swarajists have a difficult task.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. The resolution which Gandhi proposes amounts to an ultimatum to the Swarajists.
By the way, what is the meaning of Satyagraha?
Disciple: Mahatmaji differentiates between passive resistance and Satyagraha.
Sri Aurobindo: Ido not see much in it. Passive resistance also is resorted to because one is convinced of the Truth of ones side.
Disciple: Mahatmaji's definition differs. According to him Satyagraha is not merely a political weapon; and secondly, it conveys the idea of Truth with non-violence as its necessary corollary.
Sri Aurobindo: But passive resistance can be done in all the fields of life; he himself did it. Perhaps passive resistance is a plain and unpretentious expression while Satyagraha is high-sounding. It conveys to others the idea that what one stands for is the Truth. Some may find an air of moral superiority in it.
Disciple: But about the spinning clause I know that even in the heyday of non-cooperation no one spun. There is also a resolution that the provinces should carry out the orders of the A.I.C.C. I wonder why that is brought forward.
Sri Aurobindo: It is to bring Bengal under the No-changers.
Disciple: But formerly he talked of provincial autonomy in the Congress organisation.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. But now it does not suit him, then it was suitable. One accepts the truth that suits one at the time. He may be wanting to keep the whole organisation in his hands.
Disciple: Formerly he said that if the Congress did not agree with him he would work separately.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. That was suitable at that time. He is perfectly justified in imposing all conditions on his own organisation; but to do it on the Congress is hardly justifiable.
Disciple: The leaders, I believe, have a conspiracy for supplying the ten tolas of cotton spun.
Sri Aurobindo: You mean with their wives! (.)
22 JUNE 1924
There was talk about the Gopinath Saha resolution in the Congress. The Forward came out with Dhingra's statement.
Disciple: Mahatmaji says that his faith in the programme is daily increasing. Only, the difficulty is that others seem to be losing faith in it in the same proportion.
Sri Aurobindo: Probably it is rolling back to its own source!
Disciple: Khadi now has become a fashion, so much so that one can't attend a public meeting without Khadi on his person.
Disciple: The logic is something like this: The capacity to depend upon ourselves in the matter of clothing would give us economic independence.
Sri Aurobindo: If all began to spin and weave there would be no time left to produce other things. We might have to import them from outside. One may put on hand-spun and hand-woven cloth and the Charkha also may be used; there is absolutely no objection to these things. But everything taken out of its proper place becomes ridiculous.
Disciple: I was instructed to take a particular kind of bath as a treatment by Mahatmaji. He was against using medicine.
Disciple: What would happen in case of appendicitis? A British surgeon, medical science, etc. may be necessary.
30 JUNE 1924
Sri Aurobindo: What became of the resolution in the A.I.C.C.?
Disciple: It seems Mahatmaji has climbed down.
Sri Aurobindo: It is surprising because he had declared that he was 'unmoved'.
Disciple: The Swarajists had only to go to him and he seemed ready to climb down.
Sri Aurobindo: They probably went to him seeing the penalty clause, and also to ascertain how far he would climb down.
Disciple: The last resolution — about litigants being allowed to appear in law-courts — was ruled out of order. But in actual practice all these resolutions are shelved.
Sri Aurobindo: You do, and can do, all these things as 'practical' men; but how can you be a conscientious non-cooperator at the same time?
Disciple: Hanumanth Rao drew attention to the pleaders' plight and sought permission for them to continue legal practice.
Sri Aurobindo: So, there will be litigants and no pleader!
3 JULY 1924
There was talk about the resolution of the A.I.C.C. concerning litigants. T. Prakasham's case of donation of Rs. 25,000/- came up also. He was not able to sell his bungalow and wants "somebody to buy it". He had to defend himself in court. His two sons are light-fingered according to report.
Sri Aurobindo: What is their age?
Disciple: One is twelve and the other fifteen.
Disciple: Then it is the age for stealing. I stole up to my fortieth year and even this morning I stole a chrysanthemum from the Telegraph Office garden. X wanted to pluck more flowers. But I hurried him away.
Disciple: What a situation! From planning political dacoities to pilfering flowers!
Sri Aurobindo: Why? It is not a fall. It is an ascent, — that was Rajasic, this is Sattwic. If you steal, you must do it in the proper way and in the right spirit. All property is theft and so when you steal you steal from a thief! (Laughter)
Disciple: When I came out of the compound I was thinking that this was the only way to equalise property. Mr. A has one plant, now I will have one and so each of us will have one!
Disciple: But do you want everyone to steal from the Telegraph Office garden?
Disciple: I do not mind if someone stole from here; only, he must not tell me, because if he asks I wont give. (Laughter)
Disciple: The first condition is that you must not be found out!
4 JULY 1924
The subject was Gandhi's article "Defeated and Humbled" in which he bemoans the situation in the Congress and says that it was a clear victory for Mr. C. R. Das.
Sri Aurobindo attended to the correspondence and then began: "Did you read Gandhi's article?"
Disciple: I heard about it, it is a long wail.
Sri Aurobindo:'Wail' is not the word. He could not restrain his tears, though he says it is hard to make him shed tears. He also says that the whole sitting was frivolous.
Disciple: Even in the heyday of non-cooperation the A.I.C.C. people voted in the same fashion as they did now. Then they voted for him; now they voted against him.
Disciple: That makes the whole difference: that makes it unreal and frivolous etc.
Sri Aurobindo: Generally, in such moments people do not speak; they keep it to themselves but he comes out with it. It is all about how it affected the 'I' and how he felt and how it all touched him!
Disciple: He becomes so much identified with the work in hand that he can hardly have that detached self-view which is necessary to detect the central mistake.
Sri Aurobindo: If the resolutions he has brought forward are defeated, or if a certain resolution is ruled out of order, there is no reason why he should feel hurt, and that has nothing to do with the work for the country. He objects to Dr. Choithram's resolution and he is very much hurt at that shielding (Deshpande) resolution. About the Serajgunj resolution also Gandhi has felt much.
15 JULY 1924
The Gujarat Provincial Congress Committee passed the compulsory spinning resolution with the penalty clause.
Sri Aurobindo (turning to a disciple) : Gujarat is outdoing itself.
Disciple: First month three thousand yards and then five thousand yards.
Sri Aurobindo: Who will spin for V. J. Patel?
Disciple: His daughter may do it for him.
Sri Aurobindo: If spinning by proxy is allowed, then it is easy.
Disciple: Mr. C. M. Desai opposed the motion.
Sri Aurobindo: Who will spin for him?
Disciple: He has lost his wife many years ago, and has no child.
Sri Aurobindo: Then his opposition is very much self-interested.
Disciple: Who will supply them with cotton?
Disciple: Bajaj.
Disciple: But each one must grow his own cotton!
2 AUGUST 1924
Today Motilal Nehru's letter to Sri Aurobindo was received.
The talk turned first to the explanation given by a French scientist about the twinkling of stars. He says that the azote particles come across the atmosphere and that is why the planets being near do not twinkle, while the stars being far do.
Disciple: It is just an intellectual way of believing, I am afraid.
Sri Aurobindo: It is not at all an intelligent explanation.
Disciple: Apart from theories, why do the stars twinkle?
Sri Aurobindo: You must ask them! When we were young we were told that the planets reflect the light of the Sun while the stars emit it and therefore they twinkle.
(Turning to a disciple) Did you read Motilal's letter asking for contribution to his paper?
Disciple: Yes, I did.
Sri Aurobindo: Evidently the Swarajists are very much afraid of the Mahatma.
Disciple: But they have "love and esteem"!
Sri Aurobindo: It is dread and fear — more than anything else.
13 SEPTEMBER 1924
The Tarakeshwar affair was being settled. The first terms that were proposed did not meet with Sri Aurobindo's approval. But next day an open letter from Swami Vishwananda appeared agreeing with C. R. Das: The Mahant abdicates in favour of Prabhat Giri and the power of management of the temple rests with a committee that can, if necessary, dismiss the Mahant and the committee would appoint a separate Manager of Estates.
Sri Aurobindo: If we have our own Government we could throw out the Mahant and settle the affair once for all; but under a foreign rule if Das can establish the authority of the committee legally, it would be the cleverest thing to do, so that in case of emergency the committee can enforce its mandate by law. As it is, the whole law is against the public. After all Das is a man who 'muddles through' — he acts on his intuitions and impulses and somehow muddles through a difficulty.
Disciple: He is very impulsive.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, impulses are vital intuitions. Not that he commits no mistakes. He goes on committing mistakes and tries to rectify them and somehow comes to something.
Disciple: He may bungle into Swaraj.
Sri Aurobindo: If not Swaraj, he may stumble into some way towards it. There are some people like Mustafa Kamal who never commit a mistake and everything about them is organised. Das is not that type.
Disciple: Kamal lords it over everyone and I am afraid that makes him unpopular.
Sri Aurobindo: That, every strong man does.
Disciple: Even his lieutenants try to follow him in that respect and people find it difficult to get on with them.
Sri Aurobindo (after a time) : That is perhaps inevitable when you require people who will take the extreme step. Such men can hardly remain calm and yet be extremists. Few can be extremists while retaining their calmness.
An article in Young India gave the list of books Mahatmaji read in jail.
Disciple: It contains at the end Gandhiji's estimate of Christianity. He differs, he says, from orthodox Christianity. He believes in the symbolic interpretation of Christ, Mary and the Holy Ghost.
Sri Aurobindo: A lot of Christians also believe the same.
Disciple: He also believes that everyone must be crucified in order to attain Christhood; he would not, he says, put a limited interpretation on the Sermon on the Mount. But he finds Hinduism quite sufficient for his spiritual development. He has read the Upanishads and finds them very grand, but he cannot agree with some of their ideas; he finds them difficult to understand even.
Sri Aurobindo: All that could hardly prove that he is not a Christian in his make-up.
Disciple: He has written a long paragraph on the Mahabharata. He finds it a great poem, and he is especially charmed by the poet's consistently working out the law of Karma. The mighty Krishna dies like an ordinary man; the great Arjuna is robbed by the Kabas — his Gandiva, the famous bow, notwithstanding; and even Dharmaraja is made to feel the unpleasant odour of hell for having lowered the ideal of Truth.
Sri Aurobindo: What is there the cause and what is the effect? One man strikes the blow and the other dies, so one is the cause and the other is the effect!
Disciple: He has also read Goethe's Faust and finds that the heroine (Henrietta) could not find peace until she took to the spinning-wheel.
Sri Aurobindo: My God! (Turning to a disciple) Do you know Mrs. Besant, Jaykar and Natarajan have decided to spin?
Disciple: It is a fine trio! I do not know how long their enthusiasm is going to last.
Disciple: Now the proposal made by the Mahatma is very simple.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. Instead of four annas you have to give two thousand yards per month.
Disciple: Those who do not will cease to be members of the Congress.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, that is the penalty.
Disciple: Penalty for whom? the man or the Congress?
Disciple: Have you not used the word 'wheel' in your writings in the Arya? We may send the cutting to the Mahatma!
Sri Aurobindo: Imay have used 'Brahman's wheel' or some such expression.
Disciple: Does it not turn?
Sri Aurobindo: It turns out men and also Gandhis.
10 OCTOBER 1925
Sri Aurobindo referred to Sir Moropant Joshi of Nagpur. He asked a disciple: "Do you remember him?"
Disciple: I have forgotten him altogether.
Sri Aurobindo: I met him in Bombay when we took the vow with Dr. Deshmukh to secure the independence of India. He was also one of those who took the oath and soon afterwards turned round. When I was going to Surat to attend the Congress I got down at Nagpur and had to give a lecture in the theatre there and I saw Moropant sitting there on one of the front benches gaping at me!
23 OCTOBER 1925
There was a report in the press about Mahatma Gandhi's going to Cutch. He seemed to believe that he was approaching his death. There was a statement that he was going to Cutch to take rest and also to attend to the grievances of the Cutch people.
Disciple: His idea is that he would like to do 'spiritual' work for the country.
Disciple: Nowadays 'spiritual' is a word of which the meaning is known to very few people.
Sri Aurobindo: In ancient India they knew the meaning. But now obviously the Indians have got the European idea of spirituality. It is not a very deep idea. If you have strong emotion, or strong passion, or a particular type of thought — that is what they call spirituality. Or it is something bound up with ethics, morality and philanthropy.
In Europe they use the word 'spirit' in contrast to 'matter'. Whatever is not matter is spirit; and so if any man has high mental ideals and an aesthetic turn of mind or some ideas of social service they call him 'spiritual'.
Disciple: When I first came across the use of the word femme spirituelle in France during the First World War, I took it in the Indian sense and it was later on that I came to know that it only meant any witty or vivacious girl.
Sri Aurobindo: Because in French esprit means 'mind', 'wit' and such other things.
Disciple: During the war a doctor — probably Dr. Lebon — of France took photographs of departed spirits and immediately after the war there was a mania in France for consulting 'spiritualists', to get messages from the departed souls.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, that is another definition of spirituality or rather spiritualism, in Europe.
Disciple: The one thing they accept is the physical body and in France they have come to accept vital force or 'living matter'.
Sri Aurobindo: The French find it difficult to go beyond the intellect. Other European nations are no better. They are satisfied if they get a 'proof'. Newman saw that evidence does not prove anything and that you can prove what you want by using the same evidence. They can't understand that the laws governing the planes behind the physical plane may be quite different from those that obtain here.
For instance, Oliver Lodge is a great scientist and he asserts that the voice which came to him was that of Raymond, his son, who had died in the war. He says that it is proved beyond doubt because it spoke in the way in which his son used to speak and recounted things which only Raymond knew and also spoke about certain family matters.
Now, if a voice, or a spirit, comes to you and says that it is so and so, it does not, in the least, mean that it is that man. Any spirit from that plane can come and appear as that man. Europeans can't believe that a being on the subtle planes can have knowledge of things by means which are quite different from those we have to use. It can know many things. Not only that, it can catch hold of the astral body and the nervous form of the individual and appear before you. But that would not prove that it is that man. You can even take its photograph perhaps. But that is not the astral or the subtle body. It is the body just behind the physical that you see.
But Europeans are mere children in these things. They take the laws of this plane and try to apply them to the subtle planes. Col. Wedgewood, when he came here, could not understand anything when someone told him that I was doing spiritual work. He asked: "What is spirituality?" But in spite of an explanation he could not understand what spirituality is. If Europeans had to pass through the experience of the stone-throwing incident which occurred in 41 Rue François Martin [the Guest House], they would at once take the incident as a proof of some spirit throwing it. In fact, it only proves that "stones fell" and that "they were thrown by some agency without the use of physical means". That is all you can say. It is a matter of experience; one has oneself to enter into these planes and find out the laws obtaining there. There are so many possibilities and you have yet to find out which is the fact in a particular case.
24 OCTOBER 1925
There was talk about the Franco-Riff war, — about the retreat of the French and Spanish armies from Morocco.
Disciple: Reuter's agency has given the message.
Sri Aurobindo: Do you believe Reuter's is an infallible agency? Then Lenin must have died seven or eight times, and Anvar Pasha more than six times! (Laughter)
Very often it serves the interests of one or the other of the big powers. Do you know how they supplied information during the war to the outer world? There was a German air-raid — probably at Scarborough. The news given out was that a few buildings were destroyed, some few men wounded. Whereas as a matter of fact, after the truth was found: 800 men were killed, many more wounded and three streets destroyed!
Disciple: In the army in France we used our wireless apparatus for getting news from all the fronts; even there, it was lying pure and simple.
Disciple: The agency quotes official figures.
Sri Aurobindo: Do you think that official figures are all quite correct? It is a huge machine for manufacturing lies!
Disciple: They must manipulate their information!
Disciple: That is part of the game.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they must give out authentic lies! All the news that was given out officially about Riga was, as everybody knows, a lie from top to bottom.
The talk turned to an organisation in Bengal in which the organiser made a declaration that it would use hand-made yarn for its looms, without really intending to do so, or with a view to set up one or two such looms and take monetary help from the Khadi Board, keeping the rest of the looms running with machine-made yam.
Sri Aurobindo: We, in India, lack character; it will take us long to have character.
Disciple: Then, where is the hope for India? The other day you said that India was suffering from vital depression and was afraid of new thought.
Sri Aurobindo: I did not say we have no minds or brains. I said we have no character; character has nothing to do with the intellect.
Disciple: But then these nations that are free, have they all got the best virtues in them?
Sri Aurobindo: I did not say that. But they work, they act; we can't, we begin one thing today and leave it tomorrow.
Disciple: Then where is any hope?
Disciple: I think freedom will come when it can no longer be prevented. At present much of what we do is speech. Pramatha Nath Chowdhury in an article says "Nowadays it has become a fashion to say in speeches — these times are not for speech but for action." And on that there is a speech! (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: We also remember to have done something like that in the past.
Disciple: Why, all the leaders today are only speaking; and devajāti, the divine race, was born after speaking and satyayuga began by speech!
Sri Aurobindo: Sometimes people get freedom by bluffing and we know bluffing well by this time; or maybe, God's Grace can give freedom to India!
Disciple: We know at least bluffing well.
Sri Aurobindo: That, too, the English taught us! (Laughter)
7 APRIL 1926
There was a reference to a letter of Lord Reading to the Nizam of Hyderabad in which he says: "No Indian State can deal with the British on terms of political equality" and that "the British are the Paramount Power in India."
Disciple: This time the Indian Government has been outspoken to the Indian princes probably because other princes also have begun to insist on the terms of their treaties being observed. The Gaekwad, for instance, asked back Kathiawad the other day. The Indian Government wants to prevent such a movement among the princes.
Sri Aurobindo: The Indian princes may be anything personally, but as a class they lack courage and political wisdom.
Disciple: Taraknath Das in his book points out that the Indian princes could help in the work of national regeneration. They could even take part in international politics.
Sri Aurobindo: Many things are desirable, but they do not always come true. No doubt, if the princes were politicians they could hasten the march of freedom to a very great extent. They could create real centres of power within their dominions which would serve when the time for revolution came. That was the idea in the Gaekwad's mind when he began but it was not carried through.
Disciple: There was a Praja Mandal which recently protested against the increase of taxes.
Sri Aurobindo: I do not mean that the Indian States must adopt parliamentary institutions, or even that India must copy them from Europe. You think that the opposition between the State and the popular party must always be there. That is the European idea. It is not necessary to have that kind of opposition at all.
Disciple: Was there no such thing in ancient India?
Sri Aurobindo: There was; you need not have the same thing today. In India the communal freedom was very great. The communities had great powers and the State had no autocratic authority. The State was a kind of general supervising agency of all the communities. What these modern princes can do is to create great centres of life amongst their subjects, so that they may be the seats of real power and life of the nation. The princes need not take part as leaders; but they can help the growth of the nation.
Disciple: In olden times, had the villages also such great powers?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, they had. It is the European idea that makes you think that the parliamentary form or constitution is the best. We had great communal liberty and the communities were the centres of power and of national life. The king could not infringe on the right of the commune.
Disciple: The communities must be strong and living enough not to allow their rights to be snatched away.
Sri Aurobindo: It was so; the king had a continuity of policy from father to son and he could not infringe on the rights of the communes; and if these rights were interfered with the people at once made themselves felt. That was the form which the genius of the race had evolved. You think that this parliamentary government is the best form of government. In fact, that form has been a success nowhere except in England. In France, it is worse, in America, in spite of their being an Anglo-Saxon race, it has not succeeded.
Disciple: In Japan, is it the European form?
Sri Aurobindo: I don't think so. In Italy and in South Europe the parliamentary form is there but they all copied the German constitution and there is no reality behind the form.
I don't understand why everything should be centralised as in the parliamentary constitution. We must have different, numerous centres of culture and power, full of national life, spread all over the country and they must have political freedom to develop themselves.
Disciple: Village organisation can also help in the creation of such centres.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. But it is not by lectures and sermonising to the village people, as we are trying to do now.
Disciple: I have letters from a friend informing me that the organisation of co-operative societies has succeeded in Gujarat.
Sri Aurobindo: If you want to work in the village, you must take to a natural profession, go and settle down among the village people and be one of them. When they see that you are a practical man they will begin to trust you. If you go there and work hard for ten or fifteen years you will gain your status and you will be able to do something because they will be prepared to listen to you.
The parliamentary form would be hardly suitable for our people. Of course, it is not necessary that you should have today the same old forms. But you can take the line of evolution and follow the bent of the genius of the race.
29 JUNE 1926
Disciple: What is the difference between European and Indian politics?
Sri Aurobindo: If you mean the politics of India today then there is absolutely no difference. It is a bad copy of Western politics, taking any catchwords, often even without any reference to realities. For instance, you introduce parliamentarian liberalism or the labour movement because Europe has got them. But there it is very real while here it is merely an idea and a name. Parliamentarianism is based upon educating public opinion and there the agitation has a direct bearing on their government and they have got to do it to take the masses with them at the polls. In India while we take up this form of agitation, of making a big noise, we forget that they have their own government while here it is not ours and therefore the agitation is futile.
There are three elements in European politics:
Mental idea or ideal of political and social life.
Interest of the communities or classes.
Machinery of Government.
Now, in Europe people believe and think that if they succeed in bringing about a definite form of government on the lines of certain ideals such as democracy, monarchy, socialism, communism etc., then all the problems of humanity will be solved. They follow a mental ideal which they think to be the only truth and they create public opinion and try to catch, or get hold of, the machinery of the State. Among all the conflicting ideals none has yet proved successful. It was thought that democracy would be the most successful form but after experience it is proved that it is far from being a success.
Next comes the 'interests' of individuals and classes: It is really these interests which get the better of the mental ideal and succeed in getting hold of the 'Machinery of the State', i.e., power.
In the beginning it was the priest and the monarch with his aristocracy who ruled. Then the aristocracy, the fighting class, with the common man under it, and then came the middle class, the merchant class, which is now having the machinery of power under what is called democracy. And now there is the effort in countries like Russia where the proletariat is trying to rule.
Now for Machinery of the State: It is a rigid and hard centralization and mechanization of the life of the nation perfectly organised in all details to meet an aggression, to defend and to expand.
In the old Indian collective life there were three things:
Spontaneously growing free communal units.
The Dharma-idea.
Harmonising of national life by a central agency.
We had nothing of the mental ideal in politics. We had a spontaneous and a free growth of communities developing on their own lines. It was not so much a mental idea as an inner impulse or feeling, to express life in a particular form. Each such communal form of life — the village, the town, etc., which formed the unit of national life, was left free in its own internal management. The central authority never interfered with it.
There was not the idea of 'interests' in India as in Europe, i.e., each community was not fighting for its own interests; but there was rather the idea of Dharma — the function which the individual and the community have to fulfil in the larger national life. There were caste organisations not based upon a religio-social basis as we find nowadays; they were more or less groups organised for a communal life. There were also religious communities like the Buddhists, Jains, etc. Each followed its own law — Swadharma — unhampered by the State. The State recognised the necessity of allowing such various forms of life to develop freely in order to give to the national spirit a richer expression.
Then over the two there was the central authority, whose function was not so much to legislate as to harmonise and see that everything was going on all right. It was administered by a Raja, in some cases, also, by an elected head of the clan, as in the instance of Gautama Buddha. Each ruled over either a small State or a group of small States or republics. One was not at the head to put his hands over all organisations and keep them down. If he interfered with them he was deposed because each of these organisations had its own laws which had been established for long ages. The machinery of the State also was not so mechanical as in the West — it was plastic and elastic.
This organisation we find in history perfected in the reign of Chandragupta and the Maurya dynasty. The period preceding this must have been one of great political development in India. Every department of national life, we can see, was in charge of a board or a committee with a minister at the head and each board looked after what we now would call its own department and was left free from undue interference of the central authority. The change of kings left these boards untouched and unaffected in their work. An organisation similar to that was found in the town and in the village and it was this organisation that was taken up by the Mahomedans when they came and it is that which the English also have taken up. The king as the absolute monarch was never an Indian idea. It was brought from Central Asia by the Mahomedans.
The English in accepting this system have disfigured it considerably. They have found ways to put their hands on and grasp all the old organisations, using them merely as channels to establish more thoroughly the authority of the central power. They discourage every free organisation and every attempt at the manifestation of the free life of the community. Now attempts are being made to have co-operative societies in villages; there is also an effort at reviving the Panchayats. But these organisations cannot be revived once they have been crushed and even if they revived they would not be the same.
If the old organisation had lasted it would have been a successful rival of the modern form of government.
Disciple: Is it posssible to come back to old forms in modern times?
Sri Aurobindo: You need not come back to the old forms but you can retain the spirit which might create its own new forms. They could not last, firstly, because there was the flagging of national energy owing to various causes. Secondly, the country was too vast and the means of communication not efficient enough to permit all national forces being concentrated on a particular point. Chandragupta could not have very easily reached the farthest end of his dominion so as to put all available national strength to a single purpose. If India had been a small country it would have been much more easy and with the modern means of communication I am sure it would have succeeded.
It has been a special feature of India that she has to contain in her life all the most diverse elements and assimilate them. This renders her problem most intricate.
Disciple: If it is India's destiny to assimilate all the conflicting elements, is it possible to assimilate the Mahomedan element also?
Sri Aurobindo: Why not? India has assimilated elements from the Greeks, the Persians and other nations. But she assimilates only when her Central Truth is recognised by the other party, and even while assimilating she does it in such a way that the elements absorbed are no longer recognisable as foreign but become part of herself. For instance, we took from the Greek architecture, from the Persian painting, etc.
The assimilation of the Mahomedan culture also was done in the mind to a great extent and it would have perhaps gone further. But in order that the process may be complete it is necessary that a change in the Mahomedan mentality should come. The conflict is in the outer life and unless the Mahomedans learn tolerance I do not think the assimilation is possible.
The Hindu is ready to tolerate. He is open to new ideas and his culture has got a wonderful capacity for assimilation, but always provided that her Central Truth is recognised.
Disciple: Did India have the national idea in the modern sense ?
Sri Aurobindo: The nation idea India never had. By that I mean the political idea of the nation. It is a modern growth. But we had in India the cultural and spiritual idea of the nation.
Disciple: Is it possible to continue the modern idea of the nation with the spontaneously growing institutions of the olden times?
Sri Aurobindo: The modern political consciousness of the national idea has come to Europe recently. It arose either by a slow growth as in England and Japan on account of their insular position more or less, or in response to outside pressure as with the French who got it after their conquest by the Britons. Practically, the French began to be a nation after the appearance of Joan of Arc. Up to that time England found always some allies among the French nobles. Italy got it not more than a century ago, and the Germans as late as the time of Bismarck.
This consciousness is more political than anything else and it aims at the organisation of the national forces for offence and defence. If you accept the idea of nations going on fighting and destroying for ever, then you have to give up the cultural and spiritual free growth of the nation and follow in the footsteps of Eurpean nations.
Disciple: In America (U.S.A.) each state makes its own laws — there the central authority is not oppressive.
Disciple: But the state legislates about everything. America, in fact, is a country of laws and regulations and not free growth.
Sri Aurobindo: The present-day national spirit and the centralised mechanical organisation of the State are logical conclusions or consequences of 'nations' — of 'armed nations'; you feel more and more justified in centralising everything once you have begun.
But there is no reason to suppose that the present-day ideal of nationhood which is only aggressive and defensive would last for ever. If this state of affairs is to last for ever then you can give up all hope for humanity. Only a cataclysm, in that case, can save humanity.
Disciple: If the spirit of nationalism is given up by the European nations, what will they follow?
Sri Aurobindo: Do you want me to prophesy? But the modern tendency seems to be towards some kind of internationalism.
Disciple: What do you think of Tagore's idea of India becoming the meeting-ground of the West and the East?
Sri Aurobindo: What do you mean by the meeting of the West and the East? You mean like the meeting of the tiger and the lamb?
Disciple: Meeting like brothers and equals.
Disciple: Why meet in India? We can meet in London, as their brother! (Laughter)
Sri Aurobindo: We in India take time to assimilate and put into life this new national idea of the West. Other Asiatic nations like the Japanese and the Turks have been able to catch it. There is a great difference between the Indian and the Japanese mind. The Japanese have got the mental discipline and capacity to organise. We in India have not that sort of ordered and practical mind. In Japan everyone lives for the Mikado and the Mikado is the symbol of the nation — he embodies the spirit of the nation. Everyone is prepared to die for him. This we could never have in India; Japan was more feudal in its past than any other Asiatic nation.
Disciple: Is there no similarity between the political institutions of the Middle Ages and the organisations of Chandragupta in India?
Sri Aurobindo: There is only a superficial resemblance. We had no feudalism as it was practised in Europe.
Disciple: Was there no penal system in ancient India?
Sri Aurobindo: There were no jails as we have them now.
Disciple: No jails!
Disciple: What will non-cooperators do?
Disciple: The laws of Manu — do they represent the ancient penal code of the past?
Sri Aurobindo: Manusmriti is a compilation made by the Brahmins and it is not very old. It was, I believe, somewhere about the first century that the laws were compiled. They must be embodying, of course, the former laws. There were punishments in those days, fines, corporeal punishments, mutilation and even capital punishment.
Disciple: If we had all these things, why have we Indians come to our present condition?
Sri Aurobindo: Present-day Indians have got nothing to boast of from their past. Indian culture today is in the most abject condition, like the fort of Gingee — one pillar standing here, and another ceiling there and some hall out of recognition somewhere!
4 AUGUST 1926
Disciple: The word Dharma has come to mean religion, though the original sense is not that. It is the law of being — social or moral — which sustains the being. Is the old classification of men in four orders, according to the peculiar Dharma of each, tenable now? Can each human being have the characteristics of the four orders?
Sri Aurobindo: There is infinite possibility. So the potentiality of all the four castes is in every man, but that does not exist as a fact. No classification can be perfect so long as man is living in the mental consciousness. It is not possible to classify all natures into those four orders. So we have come to the present confusion because it is regulated by birth. Of course, there are tradition, training, culture and atmosphere too which tend to give their stamp to ones nature.
But then the economic classification set aside the one according to inherent inborn nature. Profession then became the mark of the caste. Now, even this has broken down, what continues as caste is meaningless. Many meaningless things continue in humanity.
Before Buddha there were Kshatriyas in Bengal. When Buddhism collapsed there remained two castes, Brahmins and Shudras, other castes rightly resented being called 'Shudras'. In ancient times the agriculturist, the trader and the craftsman were all Vaishyas.
Disciple: Nowadays there is the democratic ideal.
Sri Aurobindo: Yes. In the democratic ideal all are inherently equal. Now they say we must give equal opportunity to all — that is possible. There was a hierarchy in India and in feudal Europe. But where is democracy even today? It is a name which simply covers up the inequalities. All human ideals move round in a vicious circle. First, a hierarchy starts the culture — the start, generally, is with knowledge and spiritual experience. Then the culture spreads down to the people and in so doing it depreciates. Then a general levelling down takes place and there comes democracy. Then a hierarchy comes in and the circle starts again.
Disciple: But is there a goal for humanity?
Sri Aurobindo: Yes, there is a goal, and humanity is not going towards it but round and round in a circle below, while the goal is high up.
Disciple: What can man do to get out of the circle?
Sri Aurobindo: To escape he must go beyond humanity. In the case of individuals, attempts up till now have succeeded. But no effort has succeeded in making it a part of the earth-nature.
8 SEPTEMBER 1926
Disciple: What are the possibilities of industrialism in India?
Sri Aurobindo: About that you can say as much as I. What do you mean by 'industrialism'?
Disciple: I mean the system of large-scale production through big machines.
Sri Aurobindo: Big machines are bound to come. The poverty of the people can only be removed by large-scale production.
Disciple: The real question is: How to prevent life from being mechanised?
Sri Aurobindo: That is a different question. But big machinery does not necessarily imply all the evils of industrialism.
Disciple: Even in cottage-industries men are mechanised to a certain extent.
Disciple: Yes, but cottage-industries leave the social life intact.
Sri Aurobindo: Why should the present form of social life remain intact? New forms of social organisation will rise with the advent of large-scale production. It is the tendency of Indians towards poverty which is really responsible for their cry against machinery.
Disciple: The problem is: How to introduce big machinery and yet avoid all the evils arising out of it?
Sri Aurobindo: The evils are bound to disappear. The different ideas and schemes suggested in Europe show that those people are trying to correct the defects. Unless one enters into industrialism how can the evils be overcome?
Disciple: Will India have to pass through all the evils of industrialism?
Sri Aurobindo: But why should India wait till other countries solve the problem, so that it may imitate them afterwards?
Disciple: How will India avoid the evils?
Sri Aurobindo: Let her first acquire wealth. Without wealth they cannot expect to make any progress.
[1] Sri Aurobindo was pressed by Mrs. Besant to give his opinion on the Montague-Chelmsford Reforms. For a long time he avoided making any pronouncement. At last, when pressed again, he wrote an article for her paper New India on condition that his name should not be published. So the article appeared on 10 August 1918 under the name of "An Indian Nationalist".
In that article he said in effect: The Reforms are like a Chinese-puzzle. Even a Chinese-puzzle can be solved but this one cannot be solved. Everything given by the Government till now was a mere shadow and these Reforms are a huge shadow.
***
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