classes ::: Agenda Vol 04, The Mother, Satprem, Integral Yoga, chapter,
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object:1963-09-07
book class:Agenda Vol 04
author class:The Mother
author class:Satprem
subject class:Integral Yoga
class:chapter


1963 Sat 7 September
September 7, 1963

(The beginning of this conversation was to disappear, but Satprem chanced on it on a second track of the tape-recording. He found it charming and inserted it back here. Quite often he deleted these beginnings of conversations.... Here the subject was his health, Sujata having written to Mother that it was deteriorating" and proposed that a supplementary diet be given him.)

So, let me contemplate you! (laughter)

How are you, mon petit?

There is some improvement.

A little better. And that food, is it all right?

Yes, it seems to be helping.

Here (Mother gives a white hibiscus): its the will one with the Divine Willwhen theyre merged like that and you can no longer tell one from the other.

Petit
***

(Mother comments on an old experience of June 29: the boat of pink clay.)

Things are moving much faster than I thought because this experience seems to me far, far, far behind [it dates back two months], so many things have happened sincethere are so many things I dont mention.
***

Soon afterwards:

The other day, for some question of work, I was led to explain my position from the standpoint of the materialist conviction (I dont know what their position is today, because thats something I am not concerned with generally), but anyway I was led to do it because of a certain work.1

For them, all the experiences men have are the result of a mental phenomenon: we have reached a progressive mental development (they are at a loss to explain why or how!), anyhow it was Matter that developed Life, Life that developed Mind, and all of mens so-called spiritual experiences are mental constructions (they use other words, but I believe thats their idea). It is, at any rate, a denial of all spiritual existence in itself and of a Being or Force or Something superior which governs everything.

As I said, I dont know what their position is today, what point they have reached, but I was in the presence of a conviction of that type.

Then I said, But its very simple! I accept your point of view, there is nothing other than what we see, than mankind as it is; all the so-called inner phenomena are due to a mental, cerebral action; and when you die, you diein other words, the phenomenon of agglomeration comes to the end of its existence, and it dissolves, everything dissolves. Thats all very well.

(Quite likely, had things been that way, I would have found life so disgusting that I would have left it long ago. But I must add right away that its not for any moral or even spiritual reason that I disapprove of suicide, its because to me its an act of cowardice and something in me doesnt like cowardice, so I did not I would never have fled from the problem.)

Thats one point.

But then, once you are here on this earth and you have to go to the end, even if the end is nothingness, you go to the end and its just as well to do so as best you can, that is to say, to your fullest satisfaction. I happened to have some philosophical curiosity and to study all kinds of problems, and I came upon Sri Aurobindos teaching, and what he taught (I would say revealed, but not to a materialist) is by far, among the systems men have formulated, the most satisfying FOR ME, the most complete, and what answers the most satisfactorily all the questions that can be asked; it is the one that helps me the most in life to have the feeling that life is worth living. Consequently, I try to conform entirely to his teaching and to live it integrally in order to live as best I can for me. I dont mind at all if others dont believe in itwhether they believe in it or not is all the same to me; I dont need the support of others conviction, its enough if I am myself satisfied.

Well, theres no reply to that.

The experience lasted a long time for all details, to all problems, thats what I answered. And when I came to the end, I said to myself, But thats a wonderful argument! Because all the elements of doubt, ignorance, incomprehension, bad will, negation, with that argument they were all muzzledannulled, they had no effect.

That work, I think, must have had worldwide repercussions. I was in it, in that state (with the sense of a very great power and a wonderful freedom) for certainly at least six or eight hours. (The work had started long before, but it became rather acutely present these last few days.)

And afterwards, everything was held in a solid gripwhat do you have to say?

(silence)

Its much easier to answer out-and-out materialists who are convinced and sincere (sincere within the limit of their consciousness, that is) than to answer people who have a religion! Much easier.

With Indians, its very easytheyre heaven-blessed, these people, because it takes very little for them to be oriented in the right way.2 But there are two types of difficult religion, the Christian religion (especially in the form of Protestantism), and the Jewish religion.

The Jews are also out-and-out materialists: you die, well, you die, its over. Though I havent quite understood how they reconcile that with their God, who moreover is Unthinkable and must not be named but who, seen from the standpoint of a vaster truth, seems (I am not sure), seems to be an Asura. Because its an almighty and UNIQUE God, foreign to the world the world (as far as I know) and he are two completely different things.

Its the same with Catholicism. Yet, if I remember correctly, their God created the world with a part of himself, no?

No, no!

No? Is it only man that he pulled out of his rib?

No! Its out of Adams rib that he pulled man, not out of his own rib!

Aah!

Its out of Adams rib

that he pulled woman. Aah!

No, no, he created the world.

Out of nothingness he made the world?

Thats right.

Then its the same problem, the same difficulty.

Its quite simply an incomprehension.

And in fact he sent his son to save the world.

Then his son doesnt belong to the creation?

He is the son of Godnot so the others.

He is the ONLY son of God?

Yes, of course!

Theyve twisted everything.

But Adam belonged to the creation, didnt he?

Yes, while Christ isnt human, he is the son.

But he took on a human body.

Yes, but hes the son of God. He isnt a human being become divine, he is a divine being the son of Godwho took on a human body.

But thats understood! All Avatars are like that.

Yes, but hes the only one.

Its all twisted.

But the Virgin, in that affair? What happened to her? Because she was a woman, wasnt she?

She was human.

Yes because in the story, theres even a moment when Christ says, What do I have to do with that woman!

But then, the Assumption?

(silence)

Of course, those who know understand very wellits all symbolic.

But for instance, I told you I spoke with the Pope for quite a long time the day of his election, and the conversation was abruptly interrupted by a reaction he had. (It was really a mental conversation we were having: I spoke, he replied, I heard his reply I dont know whether he was conscious of something probably not, but anyway; it wasnt at all a formation of my own mind because I received quite unexpected replies.) But the conversation was interrupted abruptly by a reaction he had when I told him that God is everywhere and in all things; that everything is He; and then a great Force came down into me and I added, Even when you descend into Hell, He is there too.

Then everything stopped dead.

Since then Ive learned that its part of their teaching: that what is terrible in Hell isnt so much the suffering, but that there is no God there; that its the only part of the creation in which there is no Godthere is no God in Hell. And I asserted that He is there too.

But naturally, from an intellectual point of view, all those things are explained and find their placeman has never thought anything that wasnt the distortion of a truth. Thats not the difficulty, its that for religious people there are certain things they have a DUTY to believe, and to allow the mind to discuss them is a sinso naturally they close themselves and will never be able to make any progress. Whereas the materialists, on the other hand, are on the contrary supposed to know and explain everything they explain everything rationally. So (Mother laughs), precisely because they explain everything, you can lead them where you want to.

There.

Theres nothing to be done with religious people.

No. And its not good to try either. If they cling to a religion, it means that that religion has helped them somehow or other, has helped something in them which in fact wanted to have a certitude without having to seek for itto lean on something solid without being responsible for its solidity (someone else is responsible! [Mother laughs]), and to leave their bodies in that way. So to want to pull them out of it shows a lack of compassion they should just be left where they are. Never do I argue with someone who has a faithlet him keep his faith! And I take great care not to say anything that might shake his faith because its not goodsuch people are unable to have another faith.

But with a materialist I dont argue, I accept your point of view; only, you have nothing to say Ive taken my position, take yours. If you are satisfied with what you know, keep it. If it helps you to live, very good.

But you have no right to blame or criticize me, because I am taking my position on your own basis. Even if all that I imagine is mere imagination, I prefer that imagination to yours. Thats all.

An occult work, obviously.

Later Mother added: "This isn't quite correct because I am in contact with the best among Indians, but those who are materialists are very darkly and brutishly so."

***
September 4, 1963


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