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object:1963-07-03
book class:Agenda Vol 04
author class:The Mother
author class:Satprem
subject class:Integral Yoga
class:chapter


1963 Wed 3 July
July 3, 1963

(This conversation took place a few days after the new Pope, Paul VI, was enthroned. Mother had asked Satprem to erase the recording, except for a few fragments, but he thought it fit to retain at least its integral transcription.)

Here, your flowers [roses]. A magnificent color.

Then I have another photo of the Pope (Mother shows Time magazine).

It seems its the photo he chose himself for the press, to announce his election.

Its better than the last one.

(Mother hands the photo to Satprem) So, what do you have to say?

You should be the one to say!

I have to say.

I have to say that I know this man. I have met him several times. I dont know whether he is conscious, I mean I dont think he remembers when he returns to his body. But for a long time (not recently, certainly at least for a year, maybe two), the man has been involving himself in world affairs, which means he takes interest in global movements.1 I met him in this connection. I cannot say weve had interesting conversations or anything of that sort, but he is part of the organizations.

I hadnt seen that at all in the other photo [published by the daily newspapers] its his eyes. The mouth is bad as in the other photo, but bad in another way: he looks almost malicious. But the man has powerreal power; not a Popes power, I mean: real power, inside him.

Vital power, you mean, or spiritual?

Not spiritual! Not spiritual: power. Powerwhich means a somewhat higher mental capacity along with a vital realization. Hes a man who, were he not the Pope, would have no scruples. But he happens (laughing) to be obliged at least to appear good!

I get a sense of hardness.

Very hard. Just the opposite of the other one [John XXIII].

But he has publicly pledged to continue what the other one had begun. Only, the other one had no power whatsoever: he was simply a good man on earth. This one isnt a good man! Hes an effective power in the terrestrial organizations.

And now he has a position.

Its a bit outdated [the papacy]. But not so much as one may think. I saw that when the other one died, oh, how it stirred the earths mental atmosphere, it was considerable. Which means that many, many human beings are still governed by that.

But I never concerned myself with that domain. Even when I saw the Pope, the one before the last one [Pius XII], who came to offer me the Keys (I told you the story, didnt I?), even with him, who had a SPIRITUAL rapport with the universal Mother, I never concerned myself. I never did anything for him, I never concerned myself with him. This time, for whatever reason, there is something that keeps pulling and pulling me in that direction.

I dont know, maybe something decisive is going to be achieved? I dont know.

But is his power of organization a power for the good, if I may say so, or what?

I tell you, its a power of domination. But now he is the Pope, so his domination will have to be at the service of his position, you understand.

But maybe The very fact that I met him (he may have been already thinking of becoming Pope, I dont know), but anyway, long before anyone except him thought of it, the fact that I met him while seeing to certain terrestrial arrangements shows that, probably unconsciously (I told you right away: I dont think he is conscious in his body), he is nevertheless under the influence, if not the control, of the higher forces.

Why is my attention drawn all of a sudden in that direction? Generally, I am not interested in all those things. For the action, I am concerned only with the little field of experience I have been given, and my terrestrial action is of quite another nature; its on a higher plane, very independent of individuals.

I find there are three noteworthy points: First, this man was already concerning himself with terrestrial affairs when he was a mere cardinal in Milan (in Milan he was very involved in labor problems there are many workers in Milan and that interested him, he liked to solve workers problems). Then there is the continuation of the other ones work: the rapprochement, so to say, with Russia, which is truly interesting. Last, there is the fact that Kennedy is Catholic. And also, that all this is happening just now, I mean when AT LEAST (I dont say at best, I say at least) the foundation of the new world is being prepared.

The foundations are being prepared.

We shall see.

(Mother looks at the Time magazine photo again:) With these photos its very interesting, I have intriguing experiences: all at once Ill see crystal clear (much clearer than I see physically), Ill see the individual very clearlyhe comes alive, the eyes speak to meand Ill say, Oh, hes like this and like that. Everybody brings me photos, because I am used to reading peoples characters in their photos, thats very easy for me, elementary; but sometimes when I am given a photo, suddenly I see somebody and I say, Oh, but its such and such person, hes like this and like that. But if I am shown the SAME photo a few days afterwards, its just a photo and I see nothing. Its a method thats used to let me know certain things, and once I know them, its finished. For instance, the first time I saw this photo of the Pope, when they brought it to me, I saw the man (I know him, you see) JUST AS I see him over there. But if I look at it nowit doesnt evoke anything in me any more, only the kind of things you see in a photo: a mouth thats not good, far from it. Certainly, that he chose this photo means he LIKES authorityhe wants to be seen in his aspect of authority.

The odd thing is that he is seated [in the photo], while all the time I see him standing. He is seated with his hand on the armrest, but I keep seeing him standingholding his head high, facing life, standing. He must be fairly tall: the man I know is fairly tall, he looks very much like this one. Its unmistakable, I mean, when I saw the photo I saw the man I knew.

But I think not think, I see that his belief is, first, simply a question of habit, because he was born in that religion, and then a question of political necessity I dont think he has the conviction that it is the pure Truth. Whereas the previous Pope really believed in it. This one knows too much in his supraconscient to believe that Christianity is the pure and exclusive Truth. Only, you see, when youre lucky enough to be the Pope, youve got to believe that the Pope is the Pope! Try to imagine, look at the global situation from a distance: of course the whole world isnt Catholic, but there are Catholics all over the world.

What seems bizarre to those who have gone beyond the petty, purely terrestrial limitshuman terrestrial limitsis that belief in a SINGLE divine manifestation on the earth; all the religions are based on that, everyone says, Christ was the only one, or Buddha was the only one, or elsewhere Mohammed was the only one, and so forth. Well, that only one is something IMPOSSIBLE as soon as you rise a little above the ordinary earth atmosphere it appears childish. You can understand the thing and accept it only as a sort of recurrent movement of the divine Consciousness on the earth.

Of course, officially there is only Christ; maybe for this man [Paul VI], he is still the greatest, but I would be surprised if he thought Christ was the only one. Only, Christ has to be the only oneyoud cut out your own tongue rather than say hes not!

I dont think the question bothers him much (!) His concern is how to exert his power and keep people in it, so as, maybe, to prove his superiority.

This much conviction they still have, you see, that their religion IS superior to all others, their power is superior to all others, and therefore they have to be more powerful than the others. Thats the main idea: To be the most powerful. And whats the way, now, for them to gain that all-powerfulness? Already for two or three generations, they have understood the necessity of a broadening: the narrowness of their dogma gave them too many weak points. But he [Paul VI] understands maybe even better. Well see what happens.

Look what Ive received (Mother hands a garl and of jasmine), youll give it to Sujatait smells nice!

(silence)

But he seems to me by far the most interesting Pope in a very long time.

Its strange, I got a sense of repulsion.

Repulsion?

The only danger with these people is a spirit of Inquisition, but is that possible nowadays? I dont think so.

No, but under the cover of a synthesis or a broadening of the doctrine, they may very well be trying to expand further the power of Catholicism over the world.

Of course. Oh, but its obvious. Thats their intention.

Only, there is always an irony in things: if they grow too vast, theyll be engulfed in their own magnitude! It cannot be otherwise.

If, out of the need to enlarge, the Pope accepts, for instance, all the different sects (theyve already started to accept the Protestants), if he accepts all those sects, (laughing) little by little they will either break apart or be drowned! You follow, if we look at it from above Lets even assume its an Asuric powerit isnt (Mother hesitates) it isnt clearly and distinctly an Asuric power, because by his very position, the Pope is OBLIGED to recognize a god higher than himself; that god may, of course, be an Asura, but I have a sort of memory the memory of a very ancient story no one ever told me in which the first Asura challenged the supreme Lord and told him, I am as great as You! And the answer was, I wish you would become greater than I, because then there will be no more Asura.

This memory is very living, somewhere. If you become the Whole, its finishedyou see, the Asuras ambition is to be greater than the supreme Lord: Become greater than I, then there will be no more Asura.

On a very small scale, its the same thing on the earth.

(silence)

In a certain state of consciousness, it becomes absolutely impossible to worry about what may happen2; everything becomes visibly, obviously, the work of one and the same Force, one and the same Consciousness, one and the same Power. So that sense and will and ambition to be moremore powerful, greateris again the SAME Force which pushes you to expand to the Limitless. As soon as you cross the limit, its finished.

Those are old ideas the old ideas of two powers opposing each other: the power of Good and the power of Evil, the battle between the two, which of the two will have the last word. There was a time when children were entertained with such stories. Theyre just childrens stories.

Some people (or if you like, some beings, or forces, or consciousnesses) in order to progress need to give themselves, to merge, and in total self-annihilation, they attain Realization; for others the path is diametrically opposite: its a growth, a domination, an expansion which assumes fantastic proportions until the separation disappearsit can no longer exist.

Some prefer this path, others prefer that one but when we reach the end, it will all meet.

(silence)

Ultimately, the one thing necessary is to abolish limits. There are many ways to abolish limits.

And maybe they are all equally difficult.

(silence)

That religion is perhaps the one I have fought the most. For a very simple reason: its power, its means of action (the power it uses as a means of action) is fear. And of all things, fear is the most degrading.

I saw two examples of this, one physically and the other intellectually (I am referring to things I was in contact with materially). Intellectually, it was a studio friend; for years we had done painting together, she was a very gentle girl, older than I, very serious, and a very good painter. During the last years of my life in Paris, I saw her often and I spoke to her, first of occult matters and the Cosmic philosophy, then of what I knew of Sri Aurobindo (I had a group there and I used to explain certain things), and she would listen with great understandingshe understood, she approved. Now, one day, I went to her house and she told me she was in a great torment. When she was awake, she had no doubts, she understood well, she felt the limitations and obscurities of religion (she came from a family with several archbishops and a cardinalwell, one of those old French families). But at night, she told me, I suddenly wake up with an anguish and somethingfrom my subconscient, obviouslytells me, But after all this, what if you go to hell? And she repeated, When I am awake it doesnt have any force, but at night, when it comes up from the subconscient, it chokes me.

Then I looked, and I saw a kind of huge octopus over the earth: that formation of the Churchof hellwith which they hold people in their grip. The fear of hell. Even when all your reason, all your intelligence, all your feeling is against it, there is, at night, that octopus of the fear of hell which comes and grips you.

That brought home to me the magnitude of the problemits terrestrial. There are Catholics everywhere: in China, in Africa among the Negroes; people who dont give a thought to these things yet are under the sway and caught by the octopus.

Another time, when I was younger, I was in Italy, in Venice, painting in a corner of St. Marks Cathedral (a marvelous place of great beauty), and I happened to be sitting right next to a confessional. One day, as I sat there painting, I saw the priest arrive and enter the confessional that man completely black, tall, thin, the very face of wickedness and hardness: a pitiless wickedness. He closeted himself in there. After a short while there came a rather young woman, perhaps thirty years old, gentle, very sweetnot intelligent but very sweetentirely dressed in black. She entered the box (he was already shut in and could no longer be seen), and they spoke through a grille. I should add that its far more medieval than in France, it was really it was almost theatrical. She knelt down there, I saw her long gown flowing out, and she was speaking. (I couldnt hear, she was whispering; besides, both of them spoke in Italian, although I understand Italian.) The voices were barely audible, there was no sound. Then all at once, I heard the woman sobbing (she was sobbing in spasms), and it went on till suddenlya collapse: she crumpled in a heap on the floor. Then that man opened the door, shoving aside her body with the door and he strode away without a backward glance. I was young, you know, and if I could have, I would have killed him. What he had just done was monstrous. And he was going away it was a chunk of steel that walked out.

Incidents of that sort have left me with a peculiar impression. The stories of the Inquisition had already given me a sufficient Now, of course, youve heard what I told you [the story of the Asura], and thats really my way of seeing the thing. But there was a time when I might have said, No religion has done more evil in the world than this one.

But I am not so sure now. Its one ASPECT of that religion.

Its yet too human a vision of things. I prefer I prefer the vision of the Lord telling the Asura, Go ahead, keep on growing and growing and growing and there will be no more Asura! (laughing) Thats better.

(silence)

This man [Paul VI] may have been like that priest in Venice. He was a tall young man, couldnt have been more than thirty, very thin, with a face like a knife blade, oh!

Fear is not a negative thing: its a very positive thing, its a special form of power that has always been used by the Asuric forcesits their greatest strength. Their greatest strength is fear.

I can see: whenever people are defeated, its ALWAYS through fear, always.

So if you (Mother turns to the photo) intend to make use of it, youd better beware!

(Mother stares at the photo)

What comes to me is a magnificence.

Well, well see.
***

(Later, the subject is the English translation of Satprems recent book on Sri Aurobindo:)

I think E. will be able to find a public over there, in America especiallymore than in France.

(silence)

In France, all those who have an awakening, a spiritual need, rush back to the Catholic religion. Which means the octopus still has a great deal of power therea very great deal.

Some time ago, I dont remember on what occasion, I recalled the time when you couldnt say that the earth rotates, or even that its roundthey killed you! Can you imagine that.

All the same, weve covered a good bit of ground.

When I realized that I knew this man [Paul VI], a thought came to me as if in jest: what if someone showed him my photo (because I know some people who can do it), and if he himself said, But I know this woman! Then I saw that old instinct, that habit not to allow anyone even to say or express opinions contrary to theirs. And I saw the curve the curve we have traveled just the same towards freedom. He would be almost obliged to tolerate me. His predecessors predecessor [Pius XII] forbade the archbishop here to excommunicate people who came to the Ashram. (The archbishop wanted to do that, but he couldnt without the Popes permission, and the Pope answered him, Keep quiet.) The next archbishop renewed the excommunication here from his pulpit, but it didnt go beyond that. So I wondered, What will be the Popes attitude? Because naturally, that kind of individual is quite capable of ordering the excommunication of something he considers and KNOWS to be true thats just what youre seeing in this photo [Satprems sense of repulsion]. Naturally, in them the political spirit overrides everything else.

Dont record all Ive said. I dont want to have it here, I dont want it kept. Because the time hasnt come for me to meddle in these affairs.

Voil.

Theres a whole part in me that very often sees itself as a warrior when I come into contact with that Christian octopus. Something in me immediately feels an urge to fight against those people.

But isnt it chiefly mental? You feel the battle of ideas.

Yes, but almost in the way of those monks of old who went about preaching I dont see myself preaching (!), but I see myself fighting them through speech.

Yes, through speech, thats what I mean.

Because you have a great combative power in the mind, very great, and thats immensely useful, but on the vital level Ive never seen anything in you like a warrior.

Oh, yes! To go about the world preaching, to go about fighting with ideas, like, for instance, the great sages here who fought through speech that, of course. But not as the general-in-chief of an army!

No!

Not a Napoleon, I mean.

But the urge to fight! Because I feel so strongly the Evil hidden there.

Oh!

And a vicious evila vicious evil hidden there.

Under the cloak of charity and total benevolence: a hypocrisy. Yes, those are the things that always made me get up in arms.

And in a way, it pains me to see that what little I can do, this book on Sri Aurobindo, for instance, isnt understood. There is a wall in Francea refusal, I cant get in there, its blocked. It pains me. With the people I know there its the same thing; everywhere I meet with a wall of incomprehensionits absolutely and completely closed.3

(Long silence) With Frances intellectual quality, the quality of her mind, the day she is truly touched spiritually (she never has been), the day she is touched spiritually, it will be something exceptional.

Sri Aurobindo had a great liking for France. I was born therecertainly for a reason. In my case, I know it very well: it was the need of culture, of a clear and precise mind, of refined thought, taste and clarity of mindthere is no other country in the world for that. None. And Sri Aurobindo had a liking for France for that same reason, a great liking. He used to say that throughout his life in England, he had a much greater liking for France than for England!

There is a reason.

Well see.

Things are perhaps going to move a little I have a sort of feeling theyre on the move. Only, there may be casualtieswhenever things move fast, there is a possibility of casualties. Periods of stability when things settle down and take their place are more peaceful. But at the moment, its more dangerous.

More dangerous.

(Mother takes back the Popes photograph)

Leave me my Pope! (laughter)

Occultly speaking, Mother means.

Mother is referring to Satprem's "worries" in the face of Catholic expansionism.

Things have changed much since then.

***


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