classes ::: Talks, chapter,
children :::
branches :::
see also :::

bookmarks: Instances - Definitions - Quotes - Chapters - Wordnet - Webgen


object:1.450 - 1.500 Talks
book class:Talks
class:chapter
Talk 450.

Miss Umadevi, a Polish lady convert to Hinduism, asked Sri Bhagavan:
I once before told Sri Bhagavan how I had a vision of Siva at about the time of my conversion to Hinduism. A similar experience recurred to me at Courtallam. These visions are momentary. But they are blissful. I want to know how they might be made permanent and continuous. Without
Siva there is no life in what I see around me. I am so happy to think of
Him. Please tell me how His vision may be everlasting to me.

M.: You speak of a vision of Siva. Vision is always of an object. That implies the existence of a subject. The value of the vision is the same as that of the seer. (That is to say, the nature of the vision is on the same plane as that of the seer.) Appearance implies disappearance also. Whatever appears must also disappear. A vision can never be eternal. But Siva is eternal
The pratyaksha (vision) of Siva to the eye signifies the existence of the eyes to see; the buddhi (intellect) lying behind the sight; the seer behind the buddhi and the sight; and finally the Consciousness underlying the seer. This pratyaksha (vision) is not as real as one imagines it to be, because it is not intimate and inherent; it is not first-hand. It is the result of several successive phases of
Consciousness. Of these, Consciousness alone does not vary. It is eternal. It is Siva. It is the Self.

439


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
The vision implies the seer. The seer cannot deny the existence of the Self. There is no moment when the Self as Consciousness does not exist; nor can the seer remain apart from Consciousness.

This Consciousness is the eternal Being and the only Being. The seer cannot see himself. Does he deny his existence because he cannot see himself with the eyes as pratyaksha (in vision)? No!
So, pratyaksha does not mean seeing, but BE-ing.

"To BE" is to realise - Hence I AM THAT I AM. I AM is Siva.

Nothing else can be without Him. Everything has its being in Siva and because of Siva.

Therefore enquire "Who am I?" Sink deep within and abide as the
Self. That is Siva as BE-ing. Do not expect to have visions of Him repeated. What is the difference between the objects you see and
Siva? He is both the subject and the object. You cannot be without
Siva. Siva is always realised here and now. If you think you have not realised Him it is wrong. This is the obstacle for realising Siva.

Give up that thought also and realisation is there.

D.: Yes. But how shall I effect it as quickly as possible?
M.: This is the obstacle for realisation. Can there be the individual without Siva? Even now He is you. There is no question of time.

If there be a moment of non-realisation, the question of realisation can arise. But as it is you cannot be without Him. He is already realised, ever realised and never non-realised.

Surrender to Him and abide by His will whether he appears or vanishes; await His pleasure. If you ask Him to do as you please, it is not surrender but comm and to Him. You cannot have Him obey you and yet think that you have surrendered. He knows what is best and when and how to do it. Leave everything entirely to Him.

His is the burden: you have no longer any cares. All your cares are
His. Such is surrender. This is bhakti.

Or, enquire to whom these questions arise. Dive deep in the Heart and remain as the Self. One of these two ways is open to the aspirant.

Sri Bhagavan also added: There is no being who is not conscious and therefore who is not Siva. Not only is he Siva but also all else of which he is aware or not aware. Yet he thinks in sheer ignorance that he sees the
440


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi universe in diverse forms. But if he sees his Self he is not aware of his separateness from the universe; in fact his individuality and the other entities vanish although they persist in all their forms. Siva is seen as the universe. But the seer does not see the background itself. Think of the man who sees only the cloth and not the cotton of which it is made; or of the man who sees the pictures moving on the screen in a cinema show and not the screen itself as the background; or again the man who sees the letters which he reads but not the paper on which they are written. The objects are thus Consciousness and forms. But the ordinary person sees the objects in the universe but not Siva in these forms. Siva is the Being assuming these forms and the Consciousness seeing them. That is to say, Siva is the background underlying both the subject and the object, and again Siva in Repose and Siva in Action, or
Siva and Sakti, or the Lord and the Universe. Whatever it is said to be, it is only Consciousness whether in repose or in action. Who is there that is not conscious? So, who is not realised? How then can questions arise doubting realisation or desiring it? If 'I' am not pratyaksha to me, I can then say that Siva is not pratyaksha.

These questions arise because you have limited the Self to the body, only then the ideas of within and without, of the subject and the object, arise. The objective visions have no intrinsic value. Even if they are everlasting they cannot satisfy the person. Uma has Siva always with
Her. Both together form Ardhanariswara. Yet she wanted to know
Siva in His true nature. She made tapas. In her dhyana she saw a bright light. She thought: "This cannot be Siva for it is within the compass of my vision. I am greater than this light." So she resumed her tapas. Thoughts disappeared. Stillness prevailed. She then realised that BE-ing is Siva in His true nature.

Muruganar cited Appar's stanza:- "To remove my darkness and give me light, Thy Grace must work through ME only."
Sri Bhagavan mentioned Manickavachagar's:
"We do bhajana and the rest. But we have not seen nor heard of those who had seen Thee." One cannot see God and yet retain individuality. The seer and the seen unite into one Being. There is no cogniser, nor cognition, nor the cognised. All merge into One
Supreme Siva only!
441


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

4th February, 1938
Talk 451.

Mr. S. S. Suryanarayana Sastri, Reader in Philosophy, Madras
University, arrived this night. He had a doubt which he said had been cleared on reading Sarma's commentary on "Knowledge of
Self". The doubt was:
How can the world be an imagination or a thought? Thought is a function of the mind. The mind is located in the brain. The brain is within the skull of a human being, who is only an infinitesimal part of the universe. How then can the universe be contained in the cells of the brain?
Sri Bhagavan answered saying: So long as the mind is considered to be an entity of the kind described, the doubt will persist. But what is mind? Let us consider. The world is seen when the man wakes up from sleep. It comes after the 'I-thought'. The head rises up. So the mind has become active. What is the world? It is objects spread out in space. Who comprehends it? The mind. Is not the mind, which comprehends space, itself space (akasa)? The space is physical ether (bhootakasa). The mind is mental ether (manakasa) which is contained in transcendental ether (chidakasa). The mind is thus the ether principle, akasa tattva. Being the principle of knowledge (jnana sattva), it is identified with ether (akasa) by metaphysics. Considering it to be ether (akasa), there will be no difficulty in reconciling the apparent contradiction in the question. Pure mind (suddha manas) is ether (akasa). The dynamic and dull (rajas and tamas) aspects operate as gross objects, etc. Thus the whole universe is only mental.

Again, consider a man who dreams. He goes to sleep in a room with doors closed so that nothing can intrude on him while asleep. He closes his eyes when sleeping so that he does not see any object. Yet when he dreams he sees a whole region in which people live and move about with himself among them. Did this panorama get in through the doors? It was simply unfolded to him by his brain. Is it the sleeper's brain or in the brain of the dream individual? It is in the sleeper's brain. How does it hold this vast country in its tiny cells? This must explain the oft-repeated statement that the whole universe is a mere thought or a series of thoughts.

442


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
A Swami asked: I feel toothache. Is it only a thought?
M.: Yes.

D.: Why can I not think that there is no toothache and thus cure myself?
M.: When engrossed in other thoughts one does not feel the toothache.

When one sleeps toothache is not felt.

D.: But toothache remains all the same.

M.: Such is the firm conviction of the reality of the world that it is not easily shaken off. The world does not become, for that reason, any more real than the individual himself.

D.: Now there is the Sino-Japanese war. If it is only in imagination, can or will Sri Bhagavan imagine the contrary and put an end to the war?
M.: The Bhagavan of the questioner is as much a thought as the SinoJapanese war. (Laughter.)

7th February, 1938
Talk 452.

Mr. Dhar, I. C. S., a high Officer and his wife, both young, highly cultured and intelligent, are on a visit here. But they fell ill since they arrived here. She desired to know how meditation could become steady.

M.: What is meditation? It consists in expulsion of thoughts. All the present troubles are due to thoughts and are themselves thoughts.

Give up thoughts. That is happiness and also meditation.

D.: How are thoughts given up?
M.: The thoughts are for the thinker. Remain as the Self of the thinker and there is an end of thoughts.

Mr. Dhar asked Sri Bhagavan why Brahma, who is Perfection, creates and puts us to ordeals for regaining Him.

M.: Where is the individual who asks this question? He is in the universe and included in the creation. How does he raise the question when he is bound in the creation? He must go beyond it and see if any question arises then.

443


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

8th February, 1938
Talk 453.

Three ladies are on a short visit here, Mrs. Hearst from New Zealand,
Mrs. Craig and Mrs. Allison from London.

One asked: What is the best way to work for world peace?
M.: What is world? What is peace, and who is the worker? The world is not in your sleep and forms a projection of your mind in your jagrat. It is therefore an idea and nothing else. Peace is absence of disturbance.

The disturbance is due to the arising of thoughts in the individual, who is only the ego rising up from Pure Consciousness.

To bring about peace means to be free from thoughts and to abide as Pure Consciousness. If one remains at peace oneself, there is only peace all about.

D.: If it is a question of doing something one considers wrong, and hereby saving someone else from a great wrong, should one do it or refrain?
M.: What is right and wrong? There is no standard by which to judge something to be right and another to be wrong. Opinions differ according to the nature of the individual and according to the surroundings. They are again ideas and nothing more. Do not worry about them. But get rid of thoughts. If you always remain in the right, then right will prevail in the world.

D.: What should one think of when meditating?
M.: What is meditation? It is expulsion of thoughts. You are perturbed by thoughts which rush one after another. Hold on to one thought so that others are expelled. Continuous practice gives the necessary strength of mind to engage in meditation.

Meditation differs according to the degree of advancement of the seeker. If one is fit for it one might directly hold the thinker; and the thinker will automatically sink into his source, namely Pure
Consciousness.

If one cannot directly hold the thinker one must meditate on God; and in due course the same individual will have become sufficiently pure to hold the thinker and sink into absolute Being.

444


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
One of the ladies was not satisfied with this answer and asked for further elucidation.

Sri Bhagavan then pointed out that to see wrong in another is one's own wrong. The discrimination between right and wrong is the origin of the sin. One's own sin is reflected outside and the individual in ignorance superimposes it on another. The best course for one is to reach the state in which such discrimination does not arise. Do you see wrong or right in your sleep? Did you not exist in sleep? Be asleep even in the wakeful state. Abide as the Self and remain uncontaminated by what goes on around.

Moreover, however much you might advise them, your hearers may not rectify themselves. Be in the right yourself and remain silent.

Your silence will have more effect than your words or deeds. That is the development of will-power. Then the world becomes the
Kingdom of Heaven, which is within you.

D.: If one is to withdraw oneself, why is there the world?
M.: Where is the world and where does one go withdrawing oneself?
Does one fly in an aeroplane beyond space? Is it withdrawal?
The fact is this: the world is only an idea. What do you say: Are you within the world or is the world within you?
D.: I am in the world. I am part of it.

M.: That is the mistake. If the world were to exist apart from you, does it come and tell you that it exists? No, you see it exists. You see it when you are awake and not when asleep. If it exists apart from you, it must tell you so and you must be aware of it even in your sleep.

D.: I became aware of it in my jagrat.

M.: Do you become aware of yourself and then of the world? Or do you become aware of the world and then of yourself? Or do you become aware of both simultaneously?
D.: I must say simultaneously.

M.: Were you or were you not, before becoming aware of yourself? Do you admit your continued existence before and when you become aware of the world?
D.: Yes.

445


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: If always existing yourself, why are you not aware of the world in sleep if it exists apart from the Self?
D.: I become aware of myself and of the world also.

M.: So you become aware of yourself. Who becomes aware of whom?
Are there two selves?
D.: No.

M.: So you see that it is wrong to suppose that awareness has passing phases. The Self is always aware. When the Self identifies itself as the seer it sees objects. The creation of the subject and the object is the creation of the world. Subjects and objects are creations in Pure
Consciousness. You see pictures moving on the screen in a cinema show. When you are intent on the pictures you are not aware of the screen. But the pictures cannot be seen without the screen behind.

The world stands for the pictures and Consciousness stands for the screen. The Consciousness is pure. It is the same as the Self which is eternal and unchanging. Get rid of the subject and object and Pure Consciousness will alone remain.

D.: But why did Pure Brahman become Isvara and manifest the universe if He did not mean it?
M.: Did Brahman or Isvara tell you so? You say that Brahman became
Isvara, and so on. This too you did not say in your sleep. Only in your jagrat state you speak of Brahman, Isvara and universe. The jagrat state is a duality of subject and object - owing to the rise of thoughts. So they are your thought creations.

D.: But the world exists in my sleep even though I am not aware.

M.: What is the proof of its existence?
D.: Others are aware of it.

M.: Do they say so to you when you are in sleep or do you become aware of others who see the world in your sleep?
D.: No, but God is always aware.

M.: Leave God alone. Speak for yourself. You do not know God. He is only what you think of Him. Is he apart from you? He is that
Pure Consciousness in which all ideas are formed. You are that
Consciousness.

446


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

10th February, 1938
Talk 454.

Mrs. Dhar: Sri Bhagavan advises practice of enquiry even when one is engaged in external activities. The finality of such enquiry is the realisation of the Self and consequently breath must stop. If breath should stop, how will work go on or, in other words, how will breath stop when one is working?
M.: There is confusion between the means and the end (i.e., sadhana and sadhya). Who is the enquirer? The aspirant and not the siddha.

Enquiry signifies that the enquirer considers himself separate from enquiry.

So long as this duality lasts the enquiry must be continued, i.e., until the individuality disappears and the Self is realised to be only the eternal Be-ing (including enquiry and enquirer).

The Truth is that Self is constant and unintermittent Awareness. The object of enquiry is to find the true nature of the Self as Awareness.

Let one practise enquiry so long as separateness is perceived.

If once realisation arises there is no further need for enquiry. The question will also not arise. Can awareness ever think of questioning who is aware? Awareness remains pure and simple.

The enquirer is aware of his own individuality. Enquiry does not stand in the way of his individual awareness; nor does external work interfere with such awareness. If work, seemingly external, does not obstruct the individual awareness, will the work, realised to be not separate from the Self, obstruct the uninterrupted Awareness of the Self, which is One without a second and which is not an individual separate from work?
Talk 455.

Mrs. Dhar: I form part of the creation and so remain dependent. I cannot solve the riddle until I become independent. Yet I ask Sri
Bhagavan, should He not answer the question for me?
M.: Yes. It is Bhagavan that says, "Become independent and solve the riddle yourself. It is for you to do it." Again: where are you now that you ask this question? Are you in the world, or is the world within
447


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi you? You must admit that the world is not perceived in your sleep although you cannot deny your existence then. The world appears when you wake up. So where is it? Clearly the world is your thought.

Thoughts are your projections. The 'I' is first created and then the world. The world is created by the 'I' which in its turn rises up from the Self. The riddle of the creation of the world is thus solved if you solve the creation of the 'I'. So I say, find your Self.

Again, does the world come and ask you "Why do 'I' exist? How was 'I' created?" It is you who ask the question. The questioner must establish the relationship between the world and himself. He must admit that the world is his own imagination. Who imagines it? Let him again find the 'I' and then the Self.

Moreover, all the scientific and theological explanations do not harmonise. The diversities in such theories clearly show the uselessness of seeking such explanations. Such explanations are purely mental or intellectual and nothing more. Still, all of them are true according to the standpoint of the individual. There is no creation in the state of realisation. When one sees the world, one does not see oneself. When one sees the Self, the world is not seen.

So see the Self and realise that there has been no creation.

The lady being laid up is unable to go to the hall and so feels unhappy that, though near, she cannot go into the hall. This was mentioned to Sri Bhagavan. He said, "Well, thinking like this keeps her always in the Presence. This is better than remaining in the hall and thinking of something else."

11th February, 1938
Talk 456.


CONTACT WITH SAINTS
A DANGER:
"Seek the company of saints by all means; but do not remain indefinitely with them. The adage, familiarity breeds contempt, applies even to their case," writes Swami Ramdas in the course of an article in The Vision.

"Spiritual growth is, no doubt, largely dependent on suitable association.

Company of saints is, therefore, held to be essential for a seeker after
448


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi truth. But it must not be understood by the company of saints to mean that the seeker should permanently stick on to them.

"He may, for a brief period, remain in their contact and, thereby drawing inspiration and guidance, get himself thoroughly awakened to the consciousness of the indwelling Reality. It would be well for him to depart from them before the light and inspiration that he has received diminishes or disappears.

MAY TURN SCOFFERS:
"There are many cases known to the writer and many others of which he has heard and read, in which such continued dwelling in the company of saints has not only cooled down the ardour and aspiration of the seekers but also turned them into scoffers and sceptics. The fall of a sadhak from faith, purity and aspiration does him incalculable harm.

"A young plant growing beneath the shade of a full-grown giant tree does not develop strength and stature. Its growth will be dwarfed, shrivelled and diseased. Whereas if the same plant were put into the open ground directly exposed to the storms, heat, cold, and other rigours of changing weather, it is bound to grow into a mighty tree drawing sustenance both from above and below.

STIFLED GROWTH:
"This analogy of the plant aptly illustrates the stunted life of a seeker who is attached merely to the outward personality of a saint and spends all his days in close association with him. Here the initiative for a free expression of his unique spiritual possibilities is stifled.

He fails to cultivate the fundamental qualities for his advancement
- fearlessness, self-dependence and endurance. The one great Guide that should control his mind, speech and body should be the almighty
Spirit within him. To surrender to this Spirit and become its very embodiment is his goal. To stand on his own legs, struggle and grow by his own strength and experience and lastly to hand himself over to
God by his own endeavour brings true liberation and peace.

"From what has been said above, it must not be construed that reflection is cast upon the greatness and efficacy of the company of
449


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
God-realised souls. Such a contact is the most effective means for a rapid spiritual evolution of the soul. In fact, the grace of saints is an invaluable aid for sadhana and without it the condition of the aspirant is like a bird beating in vain its wings against the bars of the cage for freedom. Saints are the saviours and liberators.

The Hindu conception of a saint is that he is the very embodiment of
God himself. So honour him, derive the rare benefit of his society, serve him with a frank and pure heart, listen intently to his words of advice, and strive to act up to them and achieve the fullest knowledge of the Truth you are in quest of.

But seek not to remain attached to his person and lose the spiritual gifts you obtained from him by first contacts."
This cutting was read out to Sri Bhagavan. He listened and remained silent. He was requested to say if contact with saints could be a danger.

Sri Bhagavan then quoted a Tamil stanza which says that contact with
Guru should be kept up till videhamukti (being disembodied).

Again he asked where is the Satpurusha? He is within. Then he quoted another stanza meaning:
"O Master, Who has been within me in all my past incarnations and Who manifested as a human being, only to speak the language understood by me and lead me."

12th February, 1938
Talk 457.

Mrs. Rosita Forbes was said to be in India. Sri Bhagavan said: The explorers seek happiness in finding curiosities, discovering new lands and undergoing risks in adventures. They are thrilling. But where is pleasure found? Only within. Pleasure is not to be sought in the external world.


13th February, 1938
Talk 458.

Sri Bhagavan said that non-dual idea is advised, but not advaita in action. How will one learn advaita, if one does not find a master and receive instructions? Is there not duality then? That is the meaning.

450


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

14th February, 1938
Talk 459.

Quoting Alexander Selkirk's soliloquy, Sri Bhagavan said: The happiness of solitude is not found in retreats. It may be had even in busy centres. Happiness is not to be sought in solitude or in busy centres. It is in the Self.


17th February, 1938
Talk 460.

Observing the moon before the rising sun, Sri Bhagavan remarked:
See the moon and also the cloud in the sky. There is no difference in their brilliance. The moon looks only like a speck of cloud. The jnani's mind is like this moon before sunlight. It is there but not shining of itself.


18th February, 1938
Talk 461.

As Sri Bhagavan was going through the letters which arrived this day,
He read out one of them as follows:
A Brahmin boy working in a household went to sleep as usual. In his sleep he cried out. When he woke up he said that he felt his prana going out of the body through the mouth and nostrils. So he cried.

Soon after he found himself dead and the soul taken to Vaikunta where God Vishnu was surrounded by other gods and devotees with prominent Vaishnavite marks on their foreheads. Vishnu said, "This man should be brought here at 2 o'clock tomorrow. Why has he been brought here now? "The boy then woke up and related his experience.

The next day at 2 o'clock he passed away.


19th February, 1938
Talk 462.

Mrs. Dhar had been anxious to ask some questions and get help from Sri
Bhagavan. She approached Him with great hesitation and gently related her troubles: My attempts at concentration are frustrated by sudden palpitations of the heart and accompanying hard, short and quick breaths. Then my thoughts also rush out and the mind becomes uncontrollable. Under healthy conditions I am more successful and my breath comes to a standstill with deep
451


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi concentration. I had long been anxious to get the benefit of Sri Bhagavan's proximity for the successful culmination of my meditation and so came here after considerable effort. I fell ill here. I could not meditate and so I felt depressed. I made a determined effort to concentrate my mind even though
I was troubled by short and quick breaths. Though partly successful it does not satisfy me. The time for my leaving the place is drawing near. I feel more and more depressed as I contemplate leaving the place. Here I find people obtaining peace by meditation in the hall; whereas I am not blessed with such peace. This itself has a depressing effect on me.

M.: This thought, 'I am not able to concentrate,' is itself an obstacle.

Why should the thought arise?
D.: Can one remain without thoughts rising all the 24 hours of the day? Should I remain without meditation?
M.: What is 'hours' again? It is a concept. Each question of yours is prompted by a thought.

Your nature is Peace and Happiness. Thoughts are the obstacles to realisation. One's meditation or concentration is meant to get rid of obstacles and not to gain the Self. Does anyone remain apart from the Self? No! The true nature of the Self is declared to be Peace. If the same peace is not found, the non-finding is only a thought which is alien to the Self. One practises meditation only to get rid of these alien fancies. So, then, a thought must be quelled as soon as it rises.

Whenever a thought arises, do not be carried away by it. You become aware of the body when you forget the Self. But can you forget the
Self? Being the Self how can you forget it? There must be two selves for one to forget the other. It is absurd. So the Self is not depressed; it is not imperfect: it is ever happy. The contrary feeling is a mere thought which has actually no stamina in it. Be rid of thoughts. Why should one attempt meditation? Being the Self one remains always realised, only be free from thoughts.

You think that your health does not permit your meditation. This depression must be traced to its origin. The origin is the wrong identification of the body with the Self. The disease is not of the
Self. It is of the body. But the body does not come and tell you that it is possessed by the disease. It is you who say it. Why? Because you have wrongly identified yourself with the body.

452


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
The body itself is a thought. Be as you really are. There is no reason to be depressed.

The lady was called away and she retired. The question was however pursued as follows:
D.: Sri Bhagavan's answers do not permit us to put further questions, not because our minds are peaceful but we are unable to argue the point. Our discontent is not at an end. For the physical ailments to go the mental ailments should go. Both go when thoughts go.

Thoughts do not go without effort. Effort is not possible with the present weakness of mind. The mind requires grace to gain strength.

Grace must manifest only after surrender. So all questions, wittingly or unwittingly, amount to asking for Sri Bhagavan's Grace.

M.: Smiled and said, "Yes."
D.: Surrender is said to be bhakti. But Sri Bhagavan is known to favour enquiry for the Self. There is thus confusion in the hearer.

M.: Surrender can take effect only when done with full knowledge.

Such knowledge comes after enquiry. It ends in surrender.

D.: The knowledge of the Supreme Being is after transcending the individual self. This is jnana. Where is the need for surrender?
M.: Quite so. There is no difference between jnana and surrender. (Smile).

D.: How is the questioner satisfied then? The only alternative left is association with the wise or devotion to God (satsanga or Isvara bhakti).

M.: Smiled and said, "Yes."

21st February, 1938
Talk 463.

In the course of the conversation Sri Bhagavan spoke appreciatingly of the services of Palanisami and Ayyasami - his former attendants.

He said that they raised in the garden two crude platforms which were occupied by Himself and Palanisami; they were most comfortable. They were made of straw and bamboo mats and were even more comfortable than the sofa here. Palanisami used to pass through the footpath between rows of prickly pear to bring begged food every night from Kizhnathoor.

Though Sri Bhagavan protested Palanisami persisted in doing so. He was
453


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi free from greed or attachment of any kind. He had earned some money by service in the Straits Settlements and deposited his small savings with someone in the town from whom he used to draw in his emergencies. He was offered a comfortable living in his native village which he refused and continued to live with Sri Bhagavan till the end.

Ayyasami had worked under a European in South Africa and was clean, active and capable. He could manage even ten asramams at a time. He was also free from any attachment or greed. He was loyal to
Palanisami, even fond of him. He was more capable than the other.

Annamalai first visited Maharshi in Virupaksha cave; he later went to
Kovilur and studied some Tamil scriptures. He returned to Skandasramam.

He died in January, 1922 in his 29th year. In the meantime he had composed 36 stanzas in Tamil full of significance and fervour.

Sri Bhagavan had them read out and briefly explained their meaning.


5th March, 1938
Talk 464.

A passage from Arunachala Mahatmya (the Glory of Arunachala) was read out. It related to Pangunni (a lame sage) who had his legs made whole by the grace of Sri Arunachala. Sri Bhagavan then related the story of a man whom Sri Maharshi had seen when He was in Gurumurtham. The man was one Kuppu Iyer. His legs were useless and he could not walk.

He was once on his way to Vettavalam, moving on his buttocks. An old man suddenly appeared before him and said "Get up and walk. Why do you move on your buttocks?" Kuppu Iyer was excited and beside himself. Involuntarily he rose up and walked freely. After going a short distance, he looked behind to see the stranger who made him walk. But he could not find anyone. He narrated the incident to all those who were surprised to see him walk. Any old man in the town can bear witness to
Kuppu Iyer regaining the use of his legs.

Again a girl from the Girl's School was decoyed and was being robbed of her jewels. Suddenly an old man appeared on the scene, rescued the girl, escorted her to her home and then disappeared.

Often such mysterious happenings occur in Tiruvannamalai.

454


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

6th March, 1938
Talk 465.

Sri Bhagavan explained to a retired Judge of the High Court some points in the Upadesa Saram as follows:(1) Meditation should remain unbroken as a current. If unbroken it is called samadhi or Kundalini sakti.

(2) The mind may be latent and merge in the Self; it must necessarily rise up again; after it rises up one finds oneself only as ever before.

For in this state the mental predispositions are present there in latent form to remanifest under favourable conditions.

(3) Again the mind activities can be completely destroyed. This differs from the former mind, for here the attachment is lost, never to reappear.

Even though the man sees the world after he has been in the samadhi state, the world will be taken only at its worth, that is to say it is the phenomenon of the One Reality. The True Being can be realised only in samadhi; what was then is also now. Otherwise it cannot be Reality or Ever-present Being. What was in samadhi is here and now too.

Hold it and it is your natural condition of Being. Samadhi practice must lead to it. Otherwise how can nirvikalpa samadhi be of any use in which a man remains as a log of wood? He must necessarily rise up from it sometime or other and face the world. But in sahaja samadhi he remains unaffected by the world.

So many pictures pass over the cinema screen: fire burns away everything; water drenches all; but the screen remains unaffected.

The scenes are only phenomena which pass away leaving the screen as it was. Similarly the world phenomena simply pass on before the
Jnani, leaving him unaffected.

You may say that people find pain or pleasure in worldly phenomena.

It is owing to superimposition. This must not happen. With this end in view practice is made.

Practice lies in one of the two courses: devotion or knowledge.

Even these are not the goals. Samadhi must be gained; it must be continuously practised until sahaja samadhi results. Then there remains nothing more to do.

455


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Talk 466.

Mr. Vaidyalingam, an employee of the National Bank: By meditation manifestation disappears and then ananda results. It is short-lived.

How is it made ever abiding?
M.: By scorching the predispositions.

D.: Is not the Self the witness only (sakshimatra)?
M.: 'Witness' is applicable when there is an object to be seen.

Then it is duality. The Truth lies beyond both. In the mantra, sakshi cheta kevalo nirgunascha, the word sakshi must be understood as sannidhi (presence), without which there could be nothing. See how the sun is necessary for daily activities. He does not however form part of the world actions; yet they cannot take place without the sun. He is the witness of the activities.

So it is with the Self.


7th March, 1938
Talk 467.

Yogi Ramiah: All actions take place owing to Sakti. How far does
Sakti go? Can she effect anything without one's own effort?
M.: The answer to the question depends on what the Purusha is understood to be. Is he the ego or the Self?
D.: Purusha is svarupa.

M.: But he cannot make any prayatna (effort).

D.: Jiva is the one who makes the prayatna.

M.: So long as egoity lasts prayatna is necessary. When egoity ceases to be, actions become spontaneous. The ego acts in the presence of the Self. He cannot exist without the Self.

The Self makes the universe what it is by His Sakti, and yet He does not Himself act. Sri Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, "I am not the doer and yet actions go on". It is clear from the Mahabharata that very wonderful actions were effected by Him. Yet He says that
He is not the doer. It is like the sun and the world actions.

D.: He is without abhimana (attachment) whereas the jiva is with abhimana.

456


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: Yes. Being attached, he acts and also reaps the fruits. If the fruits are according to his desire he is happy; otherwise he is miserable.

Happiness and misery are due to his attachment. If actions were to take place without attachment there would be no expectation of fruit.

D.: Can actions take place spontaneously without individual effort?
Should we not cook our food in order to eat it later?
M.: Atman acts through the ego. All actions are due to efforts only. A sleeping child is fed by its mother. The child eats food without being wide awake and then denies having taken food in sleep. However the mother knows what happened. Similarly the Jnani acts unawares.

Others see him act, but he does not know it himself. Owing to fear of Him wind blows, etc. That is the order of things. He ordains everything and the universe acts accordingly, yet He does not know. Therefore He is called the great Doer. Every embodied being
(ahankari) is bound by niyama. Even Brahma cannot transgress it.

[This devotee later explained the significance of his question. He hears Sri Bhagavan say that the world goes on and the individual needs are met by Divine Will. But he finds that Sri Bhagavan wakes up the Asramites at about 4 a.m. to cut vegetables for the day's curry. He wanted to have the doubt cleared for his own benefit and the question was not meant for discussion].


10th March, 1938
Talk 468.

As Sri Bhagavan was going out, the following Vedic chant was heard from a hut:
Antaraditya manasa jvalantam - Brahmana vindat. Sri Bhagavan drew our attention to it and remarked:In the Taittriya Upanishad also, He is said to be made of gold, etc.

What does it all mean? Although the sun and the other luminaries are said to be self luminous, yet they do not shine forth of themselves but they shine by the light of the Supreme Being. (na tatra suryo....vibhati). So long as they are said to be separate from Brahman their 'Self-luminosity' is the luminosity of Brahman. All these mantras mentioning the sun, etc., speak only of Brahman.

457


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Talk 469.

Yogi Ramiah asked: A master is approached by an aspirant for enlightenment. The master says that Brahman has no qualities, nor stain, nor movement, etc. Does he not then speak as an individual?
How can the aspirant's ignorance be wiped off unless the master speaks thus? Do the words of the master as an individual amount to Truth?
M.: To whom should the master speak? Whom does he instruct? Does he see anyone different from the Self?
D.: But the disciple is asking the master for elucidation.

M.: True, but does the master see him as different? The ignorance of the disciple lies in not knowing that all are Self-realised. Can anyone exist apart from the Self? The master simply points out that the ignorance lies there and therefore does not stand apart as an individual.

What is Realisation? Is it to see God with four hands, bearing conch, wheel, club, etc.? Even if God should appear in that form, how is the disciple's ignorance wiped out? The truth must be eternal realisation. The direct perception is ever-present Experience. God
Himself is known as directly perceived. It does not mean that He appears before the devotee as said above. Unless the Realisation be eternal it cannot serve any useful purpose. Can the appearance with four hands be eternal realisation? It is phenomenal and illusory.

There must be a seer. The seer alone is real and eternal.

Let God appear as the light of a million suns: Is it pratyaksha?
To see it, the eyes, the mind, etc. are necessary. It is indirect knowledge, whereas the seer is direct experience. The seer alone is pratyaksha.

All other perceptions are only secondary knowledge. The present super-imposition of the body as 'I' is so deep-rooted, that the vision before the eyes is considered pratyaksha but not the seer himself.

No one wants realisation because there is no one who is not realised.

Can anyone say that he is not already realised or that he is apart from the Self? No. Evidently all are realised. What makes him unhappy is the desire to exercise extraordinary powers. He knows that he cannot do so. Therefore he wants God to appear before him, confer all His powers on the devotee, and keep Himself in the background. In short,
God should abdicate His powers in favour of the man.

458


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: It is all right for mahatmas like Sri Bhagavan to speak out so plainly.

Because the Truth does not swerve from you, you consider it easy for all others. Nevertheless, the common folk have a real difficulty.

M.: Then does anyone say that he is not the Self?
D.: I meant to say that no one else has the courage to put things straight like Maharshi.

M.: Where is the courage in saying things as they are?
Talk 470.

As a European Countess was leaving for Europe tonight she requested him to bless her and her family.

M.: You do not go anywhere away from the Presence as you imagine.

The Presence is everywhere. The body moves from place to place; yet it does not leave the one Presence. So no one can be out of sight of the Supreme Presence. Since you identify one body with Sri
Bhagavan and another body with yourself, you find two separate entities and speak of going away from here. Wherever you may be, you cannot leave ME.

To illustrate it: The pictures move on the screen in a cinema show; but does the screen itself move? No. The Presence is the screen: you, I, and others are the pictures. The individuals may move but not the Self.

Talk 471.

D.: The avatars are said to be more glorious than the self-realised jnanis. Maya does not affect them from birth; divine powers are manifest; new religions are started; and so on.

M.:
(1) "Jnani tvatmaiva me matam."
(2) "Sarvam khalvidam brahma."
How is an avatar different from a Jnani; or how can there be an avatar as distinct from the universe?
D.: The eye (chakshu) is said to be the repository (ayatana) of all forms; so the ear (srotra) is of all sounds, etc. The one Chaitanya operates as all; no miracles are possible without the aid of the
459


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi senses (indriyas). How can there be miracles at all? If they are said to surpass human understanding so are the creations in dreams.

Where then is the miracle?
The distinction between Avataras and Jnanis is absurd.

"Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman only" is otherwise contradicted.

M.: Quite so.


15th March, 1938
Talk 472.

A large group of Punjabis arrived here in a pilgrim special. They came to the Ramanasramam at about 8-45 a.m. and sat quiet for a long time. At about 9-20 one of them said: "Your reputation has spread in the Punjab. We have travelled a long distance to have your darsan. Kindly tell us something by way of instruction." There was no oral reply. Sri Bhagavan smiled and gazed on. After some time the visitor asked: "Which is the best - the yoga, the bhakti or the jnana path?" Still Sri Bhagavan smiled and gazed as before.

Sri Bhagavan left the hall for a few minutes. The visitors began to disperse. Still a sprinkling of them continued to sit in the hall. A long standing disciple told the visitor that Sri Bhagavan had replied to his questions by His Silence which was even more eloquent than words.

After Sri Bhagavan returned, the visitor began to speak a little. In the course of his speech, he asked:
D.: It is all right for those who believe in God. Others ask - Is there a God?
M.: Are you there?
D.: Quite so. That is the question. I see before my eyes a battalion of sepoys passing. Therefore I am. The world must have been created by God. How shall I see the Creator?
M.: See yourself, who sees these, and the problem is solved.

D.: Is it to sit silent or to read sacred books or to concentrate the mind?
Bhakti helps concentration. People fall at the feet of the bhakta. If it does not happen he feels disappointed and his bhakti fades.

460


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: The longing for happiness never fades. That is bhakti.

D.: How shall I get it quicker? Suppose I concentrate two hours today.

If I try to leng then the period the next day, I fall asleep because I get tired of the job.

M.: You do not get tired in sleep. The same person is now present here. Why should you be tired now? Because your mind is restless and wanders, it gets tired, and not you.

D.: I am a business man. How shall I get on with business and get peace of mind also?
M.: This is also a thought. Give up this thought also and remain as your true Self.

D.: It is said: Do your duty without any expectation of results. How shall I get that frame of mind?
M.: You need not aspire for or get any new state. Get rid of your present thoughts, that is all.

D.: How shall I get the bhakti necessary for it?
M.: It is bhakti to get rid of thoughts which are only alien to you (i.e. the Self).

D.: What is thought-force, mesmerism, etc.? There was a doctor in
Paris called Dr. Coue. He was illiterate, but yet was able to cure many incurable diseases by will-force. He used to say: Generate power to cure yourself. The power is within you.

M.: It is through the same will-power that the seat of all diseases, the body, has risen.

D.: So it is said thoughts manifest as objects.

M.: This thought must be for mukti (liberation).

D.: God must enable us to get rid of the other thoughts.

M.: This is again a thought. Let that which has incarnated raise the question. You are not that because you are free from thoughts.

Another visitor from Rawalpindi asked: The Atman is formless. How shall I concentrate on it?
M.: Leave alone the Atman which you say is formless or intangible.

Mind is tangible to you. Hold the mind and it will do.

461


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: Mind itself is very subtle and is also the same as the Atman.

How shall we know the nature of the mind? You have said that all supports are useless. What should be our stand then?
M.: Where does your mind stand?
D.: Where does it stand?
M.: Ask the mind itself.

D.: I ask you now. Should we concentrate on mind then?
M.: Um!
D.: But what is the nature of the mind? It is formless. The problem is perplexing.

M.: Why are you perplexed?
D.: The sastras want us to concentrate and I cannot do so.

M.: Through what sastras have we known our existence?
D.: It is a matter of experience. But I want to concentrate.

M.: Be free from thoughts. Do not hold on to anything. They do not hold you. Be yourself.

D.: I do not yet understand as to where I take my stand and concentrate.

Can I meditate on my mind?
M.: Whose mind?
D.: My own mind?
M.: Who are you? The question now resolves itself all right.

(All retired for lunch. The visitor returned at 2-30 p.m. and pursued the same question.)
He said: Maharshi advises the seeker to get rid of thoughts. On what should I concentrate the mind after all the thoughts are expelled? I do not see where I stand then and on what I should concentrate.

M.: For whom is the concentration?
D.: For the mind.

M.: Then concentrate the mind.

D.: On what?
M.: Answer the question yourself. What is the mind? Why should you concentrate?
462


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: I do not know what the mind is. I ask Maharshi.

M.: Maharshi does not seek to know the mind. The questioner must question the mind itself as to what it is.

D.: Maharshi advises that the mind should be divested of thoughts.

M.: This is itself a thought.

D.: When all thoughts disappear what remains over?
M.: Is the mind different from thoughts?
D.: No. The mind is made up of thoughts. My point is this: When all thoughts are got rid of, how shall I concentrate the mind?
M.: Is not this also a thought?
D.: Yes, but I am advised to concentrate.

M.: Why should you concentrate? Why should you not allow your thoughts free play?
D.: The sastras say that the thoughts, thus playing free, lead us astray, that is, to unreal and changeful things.

M.: So then, you want not to be led to unreal and changeful things. Your thoughts are unreal and changeful. You want to hold the Reality. That is exactly what I say. The thoughts are unreal. Get rid of them.

D.: I understand now. Yet there is a doubt. "Not a trice can you remain inactive." How shall I be able to rid myself of thoughts?
M.: The same Gita says: "Although all actions take place, I am not the doer."
It is like the sun towards the world activities. The Self always remains actionless, whereas thoughts arise and subside. The Self is Perfection; it is immutable; the mind is limited and changeful. You need only to cast off your limitations. Your perfection thus stands revealed.

D.: Grace is necessary for it.

M.: Grace is ever present. All that is necessary is that you surrender to It.

D.: I surrender and pray that even if I go wrong I may be forcibly drawn to it.

M.: Is this surrender? Surrender to be complete must be unquestioning.

D.: Yes, I surrender. You say I must dive into the ocean of the Self like a pearl-diver into the sea.

463


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: Because you are now thinking that you are out of the ocean of
Consciousness.

D.: I practise pranayama. It generates heat in the body. What should
I do?
M.: The heat will pass away when the mind gains calm
D.: That is true but most difficult.

M.: This is again a thought which is an obstacle.

Talk 473.

Someone remarked: It is said that they get mukti unasked who live or die within a radius of 30 miles round Arunachala. It is also admitted that only by jnana is liberation obtained. The purana also remarks that Vedanta Vijnana is difficult to get. So mukti is difficult. But life or death round about the Hill bestows mukti so easily. How can it be?
M.: Siva says, "By My command." Those who live here need no initiation, diksha, etc., but get mukti.. Such is the comm and of Siva.

D.: The purana also says that those who are born here are Siva's group of followers, such as ghosts, spirits, disembodied beings, etc.

M.: So it is said of other kshetras as well, e.g., Tiruvarur, Chidambaram.

D.: How does mere life or death here confer mukti? It is difficult to understand.

M.: Darsanad Abhrasadasi jananat Kamalalaye, Kasyantu maranam muktih smaranad Arunachale.

"To see Chidambaram, to be born in Tiruvarur, to die in Benares, or merely to think of Arunachala, is to be assured of Liberation."
Jananat Kamalalaye means "by being born in Kamalalaya". What is it? It is the Heart.

Similarly, Abhrasadasi - Seat of Consciousness. Again, Kasi is the Light of Realisation. Remembering Arunachala completes the verse. It must also be understood in the same sense.

D.: So bhakti is necessary.

M.: Everything depends on the outlook. One sees that all born in
Tiruvarur, or visiting Chidambaram, or dying in Banares, or contemplating Arunachala, are muktas.

464


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: I think of Arunachala, but still I am not a mukta.

M.: Change of outlook is all that is necessary. See what such a change did for Arjuna. He had the vision, of the Cosmic Self. Sri Krishna says: "Gods and saints are eager to see my Cosmic Form. I have not fulfilled their desire. Yet I endow divine sight by which you can see that Form." Well, having said so, does He show what He is?
No. He asks Arjuna to see in Him all that he desires to see. If that were His real form it must be changeless and known for what it is worth. Instead, Arjuna is commanded to see whatever he desires.

So where is the Cosmic Form? It must be in Arjuna.

Furthermore, Arjuna finds Gods and saints in that form and they are praising the Lord. If the form be withheld from the Gods and saints as said by Krishna, who are they of Arjuna's vision?
D.: They must be in his imagination.

M.: They are there because of Arjuna's outlook.

D.: Then the outlook must be changed by God's Grace.

M.: Yes. That happens to bhaktas.

D.: A man dreams of a tiger, takes fright and wakes up. The dreamtiger appears to the dream ego who is also frightened. When he wakes up how is it that that ego disappears, and the man wakes up as the waking ego?
M.: That establishes that the ego is the same. Dream, wakefulness and sleep are passing phases for the same ego.

D.: It is so difficult to spot the mind. The same difficulty is shared by all.

M.: You can never find the mind through mind. Pass beyond it in order to find it non-existent.

D.: Then one must directly go to seek the ego. Is it so?
M.: That's it.

Mind, ego, intellect are all different names for one single inner organ (antahkarana). The mind is only the aggregate of thoughts.

Thoughts cannot exist but for the ego. So all thoughts are pervaded by ego (aham). Seek wherefrom the 'I' rises and the other thoughts will disappear.

465


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: What remains over cannot be 'I', but Pure Consciousness.

M.: Quite so. You start seeking happiness. On analysis you find that misery is caused by thoughts. They are called the mind.

While trying to control the mind you seek the 'I' and get fixed in Being-Knowledge-Bliss.

Another devotee: What then is the mind?
M.: Mind is consciousness which has put on limitations. You are originally unlimited and perfect. Later you take on limitations and become the mind.

D.: It is avarana (veiling) then. How does this happen?
M.: To whom is the avarana? It is the same as avidya (ignorance), ego or the mind.

D.: Avarana means obscuration. Who is obscured? How does it arise?
M.: The limitation is itself obscuration. No questions will arise if limitations are transcended.


16th March, 1938
Talk 474.

There was some reference to the heart. Sri Bhagavan said: The yoga sastras speak of 72,000 nadis, of 101 nadis, etc. A reconciliation is effected by others that 101 are the main nadis, which subdivide into
72,000. These nadis are supposed by some to spread out from the brain, by others from the Heart and by some others from the coccyx.

They speak of a paranadi which is said to rise up from the coccyx through the Sushumna to the brain and descends to the heart. Others say that the Sushumna ends in Para.

A few advise seeking realisation in the head (Sahasrara); a few between the eyebrows; a few in the heart; others in the solar plexus. If realisation amounts to gaining the Paranadi, one might enter it from the Heart. But the yogi is engaged in cleansing the nadis; then Kundalini is awakened which is said to rise up from the coccyx to the head. The yogi is later advised to come down to the Heart as the final step.

The Vedas say: "The Heart is like a lotus turned down, or a plantain bud."
466


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
"There is a bright spot atom-like, like the end of a grain of paddy."
"That spot is like a flame and in its centre, transcendental Brahman is seated." Which is that Heart? Is it the heart of the physiologists?
If so, the physiologists know best.

The Heart of the Upanishads is construed as Hridayam, meaning:
This (is) the centre. That is, it is where the mind rises and subsides.

That is the seat of Realisation. When I say that it is the Self the people imagine that it is within the body. When I ask where the Self remains in one's sleep they seem to think that it is within the body, but unaware of the body and its surroundings like a man confined in a dark room.

To such people it is necessary to say that the seat of Realisation is somewhere within the body. The name of the centre is the Heart; but it is confounded with the heart organ.

When a man dreams, he creates himself (i.e., the ahamkar, the seer) and the surroundings. All of them are later withdrawn into himself.

The one became many, along with the seer. Similarly also, the one becomes many in the waking state. The objective world is really subjective. An astronomer discovers a new star at immeasurable distance and announces that its light takes thousands of light years to reach the earth. Well, where is the star in fact? Is it not in the observer?
But people wonder how a huge globe, larger than the Sun, at such a distance can be contained in the brain-cells of a man. The space, the magnitudes and the paradox are all in the mind only. How do they exist there? Inasmuch as you become aware of them, you must admit a light which illumines them. These thoughts are absent in sleep but rise up on waking. So this light is transient, having an origin and an end. The consciousness of 'I' is permanent and continuous. So this cannot be the aforesaid light. It is different but has no independent existence. Therefore it must be abhasa (reflected light). The light in the brain is thus reflected knowledge (abhasa samvit) or reflected being (abhasa sat). The true knowledge (Samvit) or Being (Sat) is in the centre called Heart (Hridaya). When one wakes up from sleep it is reflected in the head, and so the head is no longer lying prone but rises up. From there the consciousness spreads all over the body and so the superimposed 'I' functions as the wakeful entity.

467


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
The pure light in the brain is suddha manas (the pure mind) which later becomes contaminated and is malina manas, the one ordinarily found.

All these are however contained in the Self. The body and its counterparts are in the Self. The Self is not confined in the body, as is commonly supposed.


16th March, 1938
Talk 475.

Sri Maharshi read out a news item from a paper to the following effect:
A forest guard armed with a rifle was going in the jungle and noticed two bright spots in a thicket. On closer approach to find out what they were, he was face to face with a huge tiger within a few yards of him. He threw down his gun and assumed a prayerful attitude towards the jungle king.

The tiger stood up and slowly moved away without injuring him.


21st March, 1938
Talk 476.

Dr. Stanley Jones, a Christian missionary, visited Maharshi. He writes books and delivers lectures. He has two Asramams under his control in North India. He was accompanied by another gentleman and two ladies. He is at present writing a book On the Indian Road and wants to meet the spiritually great men in India so that he may collect material for the book. He desired to know how the Indian sages have proceeded and what they have found as their experience in divinity. So he asked questions. (This is only a short sketch of his interview).

D.: What is your quest? What is the goal? How far have you progressed?
M.: The goal is the same for all. But tell me why you should be in search of a goal? Why are you not content with the present condition?
D.: Is there then no goal?
M.: Not so. What makes you seek a goal? It is a counter-question to be answered by you.

D.: I have my own ideas of these subjects. I want to know what
Maharshi has to say.

468


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: Maharshi has no doubts to be cleared.

D.: Well, I consider the goal to be the realisation by the lower mind of the higher mind so that the Kingdom of Heaven might endure here on earth. The lower mind is incomplete and it must be made perfect by realisation of the higher mind.

M.: So then you admit a lower mind which is incomplete and which seeks realisation of the higher so that it may become perfect. Is that lower mind apart from the higher mind? Is it independent of the other?
D.: The Kingdom of Heaven was brought down on Earth by Jesus
Christ. I consider Him to be the Kingdom personified. I want everyone to realise the same. He said: "I am hungry with other men's hunger;" and so on. Mutual partnership in pleasure and pain is the Kingdom of Heaven. If that Kingdom is universalised everyone will feel at one with the rest.

M.: You speak of the differences between the lower and the higher minds, pleasures and pains. What becomes of these differences in your sleep?
D.: But I want to be wide awake.

M.: Is this your wide awakened state? It is not. It is only a dream in your long sleep. All are in sleep, dreaming of the world and things and actions.

D.: This is all Vedantic, I have no use for it. The existing differences are not imaginary. They are positive. However, what is that real waking? Can Maharshi tell us what he has found it to be?
M.: Real waking lies beyond the three states of waking, dream and sleep.

D.: I am really awake and know that I am not in sleep.

M.: Real waking lies beyond the plane of differences.

D.: What is the state of the world then?
M.: Does the world come and tell you "I exist"?
D.: No. But the people in the world tell me that the world needs spiritual, social and moral regeneration.

M.: You see the world and the people in it. They are your thoughts.

Can the world be apart from you?
469


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: I enter into it with love.

M.: Before entering thus do you stand aloof?
D.: I am identified with it and yet remaining apart. Now I came here to ask Maharshi and hear him. Why does he ask me questions?
M.: Maharshi has replied. His reply amounts to this: Real waking does not involve differences.

D.: Can such realisation be universalised?
M.: Where are differences there? There are no individuals in it.

D.: Have you reached the goal?
M.: The goal cannot be anything apart from the Self nor can it be something to be gained afresh. If that were so, such goal cannot be abiding and permanent. What appears anew will also disappear.

The goal must be eternal and within. Find it within yourself.

D.: I want to know your experience.

M.: Maharshi does not seek enlightenment. The question is of no use to the questioner. Whether I have realised or not, how does it affect the questioner?
D.: Not so. Each one's experience has a human value in it and can be shared by others.

M.: The problem must be solved by the questioner himself. The question is best directed to oneself.

D.: I know the answer to the question.

M.: Let us have it.

D.: I was shown the Kingdom of Heaven twenty years ago. It was by God's grace only. I made no effort for it. I was happy. I want to universalise, moralise and socialise it. At the same time I want to know Maharshi's experience of the Divine.

Mrs. Jinarajadasa intervened and spoke softly: We all agree that
Maharshi has brought the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Why do you press him to answer your questions relating to his realisation?
It is for you to seek and gain it.

The questioner listened to her, argued slightly and resumed his questions to Maharshi. After one or two light questions, Major Chadwick spoke sternly: "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you," says the Bible.

470


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: How shall I realise it?
Major Chadwick: Why do you ask Maharshi to realise it for you?
D.: I do not.

Major Chadwick: The Kingdom is within you. You should realise it.

D.: It is within only for those who hear it.

Major Chadwick: The Bible says within you, and adds no qualifications.

The questioner felt his conversation was already too long and so retired after thanking Maharshi and others.

Talk 477.

Mrs. Jinarajadasa: How shall we be able to remember the truth experienced in dreams?
M.: Your present waking state, your dreams and your desire to remember are all thoughts. They arise only after the mind has arisen. Were you not existing in the absence of the mind?
D.: Yes, I was.

M.: The fact of your existence is also your realisation
D.: I understand it intellectually. The truth is felt in temporary flashes only. It is not abiding.

M.: Such thoughts smother up the state of your eternal realisation.

D.: The rough and tumble of town life is not congenial to realisation.

Jungle retreats afford the necessary quiet and solitude.

M.: One can be free in a town and may yet be bound in jungle retreats.

It is all in the mind.

D.: The mind again is maya, I suppose.

M.: What is maya? The knowledge that the mind is divorced from the
Reality is maya. The mind is in Reality only and not apart. This knowledge is the elimination of maya.

Further conversation led to the question if the mind was identical with the brain. Sri Bhagavan said: The mind is only a force operating on the brain. You are now here and awake. The thoughts of the world and the surroundings are in the brain within the body. When you dream you create another self who sees the world of dream creation and the surroundings just as you do now. The dream visions are in the dream brain which is again in the dream body. That is different from your present body. You
471


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi remember the dream now. The brains are however different. Yet the visions appear in the mind. The mind therefore is not identical with the brain. Waking, dream and sleep are for the mind only.

D.: The understanding is intellectual.

M.: Intellect. Whose intellect? The problem revolves round that question.

You admit that you exist even in the absence of intellect - say, in sleep. How do you know that you exist if you have not realised your existence? Your very existence is realisation. You cannot imagine a point of time when you do not exist. So there is no period of time when realisation is not.


22nd March, 1938
Talk 478.

A certain man from Madurai asked: How to know the Power of God?
M.: You say 'I AM'. That is it. What else can say I AM?
One's own being is His Power. The trouble arises only when one says, "I am this or that, such and such." Do not do it - Be yourself.

That is all.

D.: How to experience Bliss?
M.: To be free from thinking "I am now out of Bliss".

D.: That is to say free from modes of mind.

M.: To be with only one mode of mind to the exclusion of others.

D.: But Bliss must be experienced.

M.: Bliss consists in not forgetting your being. How can you be otherwise than what you really are? It is also to be the Seat of
Love. Love is Bliss. Here the Seat is not different from Love.

D.: How shall I be all-pervading?
M.: Give up the thought, "I am not all-pervading now."
D.: How to permeate the separate objects?
M.: Do they exist independently of "I"? Do they say to you "We are"? You see them. You are, and then the objects are also seen. "Without me, these do not exist" - this knowledge is permeation. Owing to the idea "I am
472


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi the body; there is something in me" the separate objects are seen as if lying outside. Know that they are all within yourself. Is a piece of cloth independent of yarn? Can the objects remain without Me?
Talk 479.

D.: Which is the best of all the religions? What is Sri Bhagavan's method?
M.: All religions and methods are one and the same.

D.: Different methods are taught for liberation.

M.: Why should you be liberated? Why not remain as you are now?
D.: I want to get rid of pain. To be rid of it is said to be liberation.

M.: That is what all religions teach.

D.: But what is the method?
M.: To retrace your way back.

D.: Whence have I come?
M.: That is just what you should know. Did these questions arise in your sleep? Did you not exist then? Are you not the same being now?
D.: Yes, I was in sleep; so also the mind; but the senses had merged, so I could not speak.

M.: Are you jiva? Are you the mind? Did the mind announce itself to you in sleep?
D.: No. But elders say that the jiva is different from Isvara.

M.: Leave Isvara alone. Speak for yourself.

D.: What about myself? Who am I?
M.: That is just it. Know it, when all will be known; if not, ask then.

D.: On waking I see the world and I am not changed from sleep.

M.: But this is not known in sleep. Now or then, the same you remain.

Who has changed now? Is your nature to be changing or remain unchanging?
D.: What is the proof?
M.: Does one's own being require a proof? Only remain aware of your own self, all else will be known.

D.: Why then do the dualists and non-dualists quarrel among themselves?
M.: If each one minds his own business, there will be no quarrel.

473


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Talk 480.

A European lady, Mrs. Gasque, gave a slip of paper on which was written:
We are thankful to Nature and the Infinite Intelligence for your
Presence among us. We appreciate that your Wisdom is founded upon pure Truth and the basic principle of Life and Eternity. We are happy that you remind us to "Be still and Know THAT".

What do you consider the future of this Earth?
Answer: The answer to this question is contained in the other sheet.

Be still and know that I AM GOD.

"Stillness" here means "Being free from thoughts".

D.: This does not answer the question. The planet has a future - what is it to be?
M.: Time and space are functions of thoughts. If thoughts do not arise there will be no future or the Earth.

D.: Time and space will remain even if we do not think of them.

M.: Do they come and tell you that they are? Do you feel them in your sleep?
D.: I was not conscious in my sleep.

M.: And yet you were existing in your sleep.

D.: I was not in my body. I had gone out somewhere and jumped in here just before waking up.

M.: Your having been away in sleep and jumping in now are mere ideas. Where were you in sleep? You were only what you are, but with this difference that you were free from thoughts in sleep.

D.: Wars are going on in the world. If we do not think, do the wars cease?
M.: Can you stop the wars? He who made the world will take care of it.

D.: God made the world and He is not responsible for the present condition of the world. It is we who are responsible for the present state.

M.: Can you stop the wars or reform the world?
D.: No.

M.: Then why do you worry yourself about what is not possible for you? Take care of yourself and the world will take care of itself.

D.: We are pacifists. We want to bring about Peace.

474


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: Peace is always present. Get rid of the disturbances to Peace.

This Peace is the Self.

The thoughts are the disturbances. When free from them, you are
Infinite Intelligence, i.e., the Self. There is Perfection and Peace.

D.: The world must have a future.

M.: Do you know what it is in the present? The world and all together are the same, now as well as in the future.

D.: The world was made by the operation of Intelligence on ether and atoms.

M.: All of them are reduced to Isvara and Sakti. You are not now apart from Them. They and you are one and the same Intelligence.

After a few minutes one lady asked: "Do you ever intend to go to
America?"
M.: America is just where India is (i.e., in the plane of thought).

Another (Spanish) lady: They say that there is a shrine in the
Himalayas entering which one gets some strange vibrations which heal all diseases. Is it possible?
M.: They speak of some shrine in Nepal and also in other parts of the Himalayas where the people are said to become unconscious on entering them.

Talk 481.

Muruganar asked what prajnana is.

M.: Prajnana (Absolute Knowledge) is that from which vijnana
(relative knowledge) proceeds.

D.: In the state of vijnana one becomes aware of the samvit (cosmic intelligence). But is that suddha samvit aware by itself without the aid of antahkaranas (inner organs)?
M.: It is so, even logically.

D.: Becoming aware of samvit in jagrat by vijnana, prajnana is not found self-shining. If so, it must be found in sleep.

M.: The awareness is at present through antahkaranas. Prajnana is always shining even in sleep. If one is continuously aware in jagrat the awareness will continue in sleep also.

475


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Moreover, it is illustrated thus: A king comes into the hall, sits there and then leaves the place.

He did not go into the kitchen. Can one in the kitchen for that reason say, "The king did not come here"? When awareness is found in jagrat it must also be in sleep.


29th April, 1938
Talk 482.

Dr. Pande of Indore is on a visit here. He asked leave of Bhagavan to ask questions so that his doubts might be cleared. He wanted to be shown a practical way to realise the Self.

M.: A man was blindfolded and left in the woods. He then enquired of the way to Gandhara from each one he met on the way until he finally reached it. So also all the ways lead to Self-Realisation.

They are aids to the common goal.

D.: Dhyana will be easy if there is a pratikam (symbol). But the enquiry into the Self does not show any pratikam.

M.: You admit the existence of the Self. Do you point to the pratikam
(symbol) and say that it is the Self? Maybe you think the body is the
Self. But consider your deep sleep. You do exist then. What is the pratikam there? So the Self can be realised without pratikam.

D.: Quite true. I see the force of the words. But yet are not mantras, etc., helpful?
M.: They are helpful. What is mantra? You are thinking of the simple sounds of the mantra. Repetition of the same excludes all other thoughts. The single thought of the mantra japa remains. That too drops away giving place to the Infinite Self, which is the mantra itself.

Mantra, dhyana, bhakti, etc., are all aids and finally lead to
Swarupa, the Self, which is they themselves.

After a few minutes Maharshi continued:
Everyone is the Self, indeed infinite. Yet each one mistakes the body for the Self. To know anything, illumination is necessary.

Such illuminating agency can only be in the form of light which is
476


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi however lighting the physical light and darkness. So then that other
Light lies beyond the apparent light and darkness. It is itself neither light nor darkness but is said to be Light because It illumines both.

It is also Infinite and remains as Consciousness. Consciousness is the Self of which everyone is aware. No one is away from the Self.

So each one is Self-realised. Yet what a mystery that no one knows this fundamental fact, and desires to realise the Self?
This ignorance is due to the mistaking of the body for the Self.

Realisation now consists in getting rid of this false idea that one is not realised. Realisation is not anything newly got. It must be already there in order that it may be permanent. Otherwise
Realisation is not worth attempting.

After the false notion 'I-am-the-body' or 'I have not realised' is removed, Supreme Consciousness or the Self alone is left over, which is however called Realisation in the present state of knowledge. However, the truth is that Realisation is eternal and already there, here and now.

Finally, Realisation amounts to elimination of ignorance and nothing more or less.

D.: My profession requires my stay in my place. I cannot remain in the vicinity of sadhus. Can I have realisation even in the absence of sat sanga as necessitated by my circumstances?
M.: Sat is aham pratyaya saram = the Self of selves. The sadhu is that
Self of selves. He is immanent in all. Can anyone remain without the Self? No. So no one is away from sat sanga.


30th April, 1938
Talk 483.

Mr. Sitaramiah, a visitor: What does samyamana mean in Patanjali
Yoga Sutra?
M.: One-pointedness of mind.

D.: By such samyamana in the Heart, chitta samvit is said to result.

What does it mean?
M.: Chitta samvit is Atma jnana i.e., Knowledge of the Self.

477


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Talk 484.

D.: I think that celibacy and initiation are prerequisites even for a householder in order that he may succeed in self-investigation. Am
I right? Or can a householder observe celibacy and seek initiation from a master on occasions only?
M.: First ascertain who the wife and the husb and are. Then these questions will not arise.

D.: Engaged in other pursuits, can the mental activities be checked and the query "Who am I?" pursued? Are they not contrary to each other?
M.: These questions arise only in the absence of strength of mind. As the mental activities diminish its strength increases.

D.: Does the Karma theory mean that the world is the result of action and reaction? If so, action and reaction of what?
M.: Until realisation there will be Karma, i.e., action and reaction; after realisation there will be no Karma, no world.

Talk 485 .

D.: While engaged in Atma vichara (the investigation of the Self), I fall asleep. What is the remedy for it?
M.: Do nama-sankirtana (sing the name of God).

D.: It is ruled out in sleep.

M.: True. The practice should be continued while awake. Directly you wake up from sleep, you must resume it. The sleeper does not care for Atma vichara. So he need not practise anything. The waking self desires it and so he must do it.

In the course of conversation Sri Bhagavan continued: The mind is something mysterious. It consists of satva, rajas and tamas.

The latter two give rise to vikshepa. In the satva aspect, it remains pure and uncontaminated. So there are no thoughts there and it is identical with the Self. The mind is like akasa (ether). Just as there are the objects in the akasa, so there are thoughts in the mind. The akasa is the counterpart of the mind and objects are of thought.

One cannot hope to measure the universe and study the phenomena.

It is impossible. For the objects are mental creations. To measure them is similar to trying to stamp with one's foot on the head of
478


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi the shadow cast by oneself. The farther one moves the farther the shadow does also. So one cannot plant one's foot on the head of the shadow. (Here Sri Bhagavan related several incidents connected with shadows including the pranks of monkeys and a mirror). A child sees his own shadow and tries to hold the head of the shadow.

As he bends and puts out his arm the head moves further. The child struggles more and more. The mother, seeing the struggle, pities the young one. So she takes hold of the young hand and keeps it on his own head and tells the child to observe the head of the shadow caught in the hand. Similarly with the ignorant practiser to study the universe. The universe is only an object created by the mind and has its being in the mind. It cannot be measured as an exterior entity. One must reach the Self in order to reach the universe.

Again people often ask how the mind is controlled. I say to them,
"Show me the mind and then you will know what to do." The fact is that the mind is only a bundle of thoughts. How can you extinguish it by the thought of doing so or by a desire? Your thoughts and desires are part and parcel of the mind. The mind is simply fattened by new thoughts rising up. Therefore it is foolish to attempt to kill the mind by means of the mind. The only way of doing it is to find its source and hold on to it. The mind will then fade away of its own accord. Yoga teaches chitta vritti nirodha (control of the activities of the mind).

But I say Atma vichara (Self-investigation). This is the practical way.

Chitta vritti nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon or by starvation.

As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is recrudescence of thoughts.

Of what use is it then? In the state of stupor there is peace and no misery. But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So nirodha
(control) is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

How then can the benefit be made lasting? It is by finding the cause of misery. Misery is due to objects. If they are not there, there will be no contingent thoughts and so misery is wiped off. "How will objects cease to be?" is the next question. The shrutis and the sages say that the objects are only mental creations. They have no substantive being. Investigate the matter and ascertain the truth of the statement.

The result will be the conclusion that the objective world is in the subjective consciousness. The Self is thus the only Reality which permeates and also envelops the world. Since there is no duality, no
479


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi thoughts will arise to disturb your peace. This is Realisation of the
Self. The Self is eternal and so also its Realisation.

In the course of the discourse Sri Bhagavan also made a few points clearer:
Abhyasa consists in withdrawal within the Self every time you are disturbed by thought. It is not concentration or destruction of the mind but withdrawal into the Self.

Dhyana, bhakti, japa, etc., are aids to keep out the multiplicity of thoughts. A single thought prevails which too eventually dissolves in the Self.

The questioner quoted that the mind starved of ideas amounted to realisation and asked what the experience is in that state. He himself read out a passage from Mr. Brunton that it was indescribable.

The answer was there. He again ventured out that it must be like looking through an unsilvered mirror, as contrasted with the present experience corresponding to looking on a silvered mirror.

Sri Bhagavan said it was a mirror facing another clear mirror, i.e., no reflection.


2nd May, 1938
Talk 486.

Mr. Ganapatram: How shall I find out "Who am I"?
M.: Are there two selves for the one self to find the other?
D.: The Self must be only one consisting of two aspects of 'I' and sankalpa (i.e., of thinker and thought).

After a time he continued: Please say how I shall realise the 'I'. Am
I to make the japa, "Who am I?"
M.: No japa of the kind is meant.

D.: Am I to think "Who am I"?
M.: You have known that the 'I-thought' springs forth. Hold the 'Ithought' and find its moola (source).

D.: May I know the way?
M.: Do as you have now been told and see.

D.: I do not understand what I should do.

480


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: If it is anything objective the way can be shown objectively. This is subjective.

D.: But I do not understand.

M.: What! Do you not understand that you are?
D.: Please tell me the way.

M.: Is it necessary to show the way in the interior of your own home?
This is within you.

D.: What do you advise me to do?
M.: Why should you do anything and what should you do? Only keep quiet. Why not do so? Each one must do according to his own state.

D.: Please tell me what is suitable to me. I want to hear from you.

(No answer.)
Talk 487.

An English lady, a young woman, came here dressed in a Muslim sari.

She had evidently been in North India and met Dr. G. H. Mees.

Sri Bhagavan read out a stanza "The Black Sun" from the anniversary number of The Vision, written by Swami Bharatananda.

After a few minutes, Miss J. asked: One gathers from the stanza that one should keep on meditating until one gets merged in the state of consciousness. Do you think it right?
M.: Yes.

D.: I go further and ask: Is it right that one should, by conscious will, go into that state from which there is no return?
(No answer) - Dinner bell.


Afternoon
D.: What is the object of Self-Realisation?
M.: Self-Realisation is the final goal and it is the end in itself.

D.: l mean, what is the use of Self-Realisation?
M.: Why should you seek Self-Realisation? Why do you not rest content with your present state? It is evident that you are discontented with the present state. The discontent is at an end if you realise the Self.

481


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: What is that Self-Realisation which removes the discontent? I am in the world and there are wars in it. Can Self-Realisation put an end to it?
M.: Are you in the world? Or is the world in you?
D.: I do not understand. The world is certainly around me.

M.: You speak of the world and happenings in it. They are mere ideas in you. The ideas are in the mind. The mind is within you. And so the world is within you.

D.: I do not follow you. Even if I do not think of the world, the world is still there.

M.: Do you mean to say that the world is apart from the mind and it can exist in the absence of the mind?
D.: Yes.

M.: Does the world exist in your deep sleep?
D.: It does.

M.: Do you see it in your sleep?
D.: No, I don't. But others, who are awake, see it.

M.: Are you so aware in your sleep? Or do you become aware of the other's knowledge now?
D.: In my waking state.

M.: So you speak of waking knowledge and not of sleep-experience. The existence of the world in your waking and dream states is admitted because they are the products of the mind. The mind is withdrawn in sleep and the world is in the condition of a seed. It becomes manifest over again when you wake up. The ego springs forth, identifies itself with the body and sees the world. So the world is a mental creation.

D.: How can it be?
M.: Do you not create a world in your dream? The waking state also is a long drawn out dream. There must be a seer behind the waking and dream experiences. Who is that seer? Is it the body?
D.: It cannot be.

M.: Is it the mind?
D.: It must be so.

M.: But you remain in the absence of the mind.

482


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: How?
M.: In deep sleep.

D.: l do not know if I am then.

M.: If you were not how do you recollect yesterday's experiences? Is it possible that there was a break in the continuity of the 'I' during sleep?
D.: It may be.

M.: If so, a Johnson may wake up as a Benson. How will the identity of the individual be established?
D.: I don't know.

M.: If this argument is not clear, follow a different line. You admit
"I slept well", "I feel refreshed after a sound sleep". So sleep was your experience. The experiencer now identifies himself with the
'I' in the speaker. So this 'I' must have been in sleep also.

D.: Yes.

M.: So 'I' was in sleep, if the world was then there, did it say that it existed?
D.: No. But the world tells me its existence now. Even if I deny its existence, I may knock myself against a stone and hurt my foot.

The injury proves the existence of the stone and so of the world.

M.: Quite so. The stone hurts the foot. Does the foot say that there is the stone?
D.: No. - 'I'.

M.: Who is this 'I'? It cannot be the body nor the mind as we have seen before. This 'I' is the one who experiences the waking, dream and sleep states. The three states are changes which do not affect the individual. The experiences are like pictures passing on a screen in the cinema. The appearance and disappearance of the pictures do not affect the screen. So also, the three states alternate with one another leaving the Self unaffected. The waking and the dream states are creations of the mind. So the Self covers all. To know that the Self remains happy in its perfection is Self-Realisation. Its use lies in the realisation of Perfection and thus of Happiness.

D.: Can it be complete happiness to remain Self-realised if one does not contri bute to the happiness of the world? How can one be
483


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi so happy when there is a war in Spain, a war in China? Is it not selfishness to remain Self-realised without helping the world?
M.: The Self was pointed out to you to cover the universe and also transcend it. The world cannot remain apart from the Self. If the realisation of such Self be called selfishness that selfishness must cover the world also. It is nothing contemptible.

D.: Does not the realised man continue to live just like a non-realised being?
M.: Yes, with this difference that the realised being does not see the world as being apart from the Self, he possesses true knowledge and the internal happiness of being perfect, whereas the other person sees the world apart, feels imperfection and is miserable. Otherwise their physical actions are similar.

D.: The realised being also knows that there are wars being waged in the world, just like the other man.

M.: Yes.

D.: How then can he be happy?
M.: Is the cinema screen affected by a scene of fire burning or sea rising? So it is with the Self.

The idea that I am the body or the mind is so deep that one cannot get over it even if convinced otherwise. One experiences a dream and knows it to be unreal on waking. Waking experience is unreal in other states.

So each state contradicts the others. They are therefore mere changes taking place in the seer, or phenomena appearing in the Self, which is unbroken and remains unaffected by them. Just as the waking, dream and sleep states are phenomena, so also birth, growth and death are phenomena in the Self. which continues to be unbroken and unaffected.

Birth and death are only ideas. They pertain to the body or the mind. The
Self exists before the birth of this body and will remain after the death of this body. So it is with the series of bodies taken up in succession. The
Self is immortal. The phenomena are changeful and appear mortal. The fear of death is of the body. It is not true of the Self. Such fear is due to ignorance. Realisation means True Knowledge of the Perfection and
Immortality of the Self. Mortality is only an idea and cause of misery.

You get rid of it by realising the Immortal nature of the Self.

484


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

3rd May, 1938
The same lady continued: If the world is only a dream, how should it be harmonised with the Eternal Reality?
M.: The harmony consists in the realisation of its inseparateness from the Self.

D.: But a dream is fleeting and unreal. It is also contradicted by the waking state.

M.: The waking experiences are similar.

D.: One lives fifty years and finds a continuity in the waking experience which is absent in dreams.

M.: You go to sleep and dream a dream in which the experiences of fifty years are condensed within the short duration of the dream, say five minutes. There is also a continuity in the dream. Which is real now? Is the period covering fifty years of your waking state real or the short duration of five minutes of your dream? The standards of time differ in the two states. That is all. There is no other difference between the experiences.

D.: The spirit remains unaffected by the passing phenomena and by the successive bodies of repeated births. How does each body get the life to set it acting?
M.: The spirit is differentiated from matter and is full of life. The body is animated by it.

D.: The realised being is then the spirit and unaware of the world.

M.: He sees the world but not as separate from the Self.

D.: If the world is full of pain why should he continue the world-idea?
M.: Does the realised being tell you that the world is full of pain? It is the other one who feels the pain and seeks the help of the wise saying that the world is painful. Then the wise one explains from his experience that if one withdraws within the Self there is an end of pain. The pain is felt so long as the object is different from oneself. But when the Self is found to be an undivided whole who and what is there to feel? The realised mind is the Holy Spirit and the other mind is the home of the devil. For the realised being this is the Kingdom of Heaven. "The Kingdom of
Heaven is within you." That Kingdom is here and now.

485


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Talk 488.

A group of young men asked: "It is said that healthy mind can be only in a healthy body. Should we not attempt to keep the body always strong and healthy?"
M.: In that way there will be no end of attention to the health of the body.

D.: The present experiences are the result of past Karma. If we know the mistakes committed in the past, we can rectify them.

M.: If one mistake is rectified there yet remains the whole sanchita which is going to give you innumerable births. So that is not the procedure. The more you prune a plant, the more vigorously it grows. The more you rectify your Karma, the more it accumulates.

Find the root of Karma and cut it off.


4th May, 1938
Talk 489.

Another group of visitors was asking the method of Realisation.

In the course of a reply Sri Bhagavan said: "Holding the mind and investigating it is advised for a beginner. But what is mind after all? It is a projection of the Self. See for whom it appears and from where it rises. The 'I-thought' will be found to be the root-cause. Go deeper; the 'I-thought' disappears and there is an infinitely expanded
'I-consciousness'. That is otherwise called Hiranyagarbha. When it puts on limitations it appears as individuals."
Talk 490.

The English lady desired to have a private talk with Sri Bhagavan.

She began, "I am returning to England. I leave this place this evening. I want to have the happiness of Self-Realisation in my home. Of course it is not easy in the West. But I shall strive for it.

What is the way to do it?"
M.: If Realisation be something outside you a way can be shown consistent with the safety of the individual, his capacity. etc. Then the questions if it is realisable and, if so, in what time - will also arise. But here, Realisation is of the Self. You cannot remain without
486


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi the Self. The Self is always realised. But only you do not recognise the fact. The Realisation is now obscured by the present worldidea. The world is now seen outside you and the idea associated with it obscures your real nature. All that is needed is to overcome this ignorance and then the Self stands revealed. No special effort is necessary to realise the Self. All efforts are for eliminating the present obscuration of the Truth.

A lady is wearing a necklace round her neck. She forgets it, imagines it to be lost and impulsively looks for it here, there and everywhere.

Not finding it, she asks her friends if they have found it anywhere, until one kind friend points to her neck and tells her to feel the necklace round the neck. The seeker does so and feels happy that the necklace is found. Again, when she meets her other friends, they ask her if her lost necklace was found. She says 'yes' to them, as if it were lost and later recovered. Her happiness on re-discovering it round her neck is the same as if some lost property was recovered. In fact she never lost it nor recovered it. And yet she was once miserable and now she is happy. So also with the realisation of the Self. The Self is always realised. The Realisation is now obscured. When the veil is removed the person feels happy at rediscovering the ever-realised Self. The ever-present Realisation appears to be a new Realisation.

Now, what should one do to overcome the present ignorance. Be eager to have the true knowledge. As this eagerness grows the wrong knowledge diminishes in strength until it finally disappears.

D.: The other day you were saying that there is no awareness in deep sleep. But I have on rare occasions become aware of sleep even in that state.

M.: Now, of these three factors, the awareness, sleep and knowledge of it, the first one is changeless. That awareness, which cognised sleep as a state, now sees the world also in the waking state. The negation of the world is the state of sleep. The world may appear or disappear - that is to say, one may be awake or asleep - the awareness is unaffected. It is one continuous whole over which the three states of waking, dream and sleep pass. Be that awareness even now. That is the Self - that is Realisation - there is Peace - there is Happiness.

The lady thanked Maharshi and retired.

487


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

7th May. 1938
Talk 491.

Mr. Kishorelal Mashruwala, President, Gandhi Seva Sangh, asked:
"How is Brahmacharya to be practised in order that it may be successfully lived up to?"
M.: It is a matter of will-power. Satvic food, prayers, etc., are useful aids to it.

D.: Young men have fallen into bad habits. They desire to get over them and seek our advice.

M.: Mental reform is needed.

D.: Can we prescribe any special food, exercise, etc., to them?
M.: There are some medicines. Yogic asanas and satvic food are also useful.

D.: Some young persons have taken a vow of brahmacharya. They repent of the vow after the lapse of ten or twelve years. Under these circumstances should we encourage young persons to take the vow of brahmacharya?
M.: This question will not arise in the case of true brahmacharya.

D.: Some young men take the vow of brahmacharya without knowing its full implications. When they find it difficult to carry it out in practice, they seek our advice.

M.: They need not take a vow but they may try it without the vow.

D.: Is naishthika brahmacharya (life-long celibacy) essential as a sadhana for Self-Realisation?
M.: Realisation itself is naishthika brahmacharya. The vow is not brahmacharya. Life in Brahman is brahmacharya and it is not a forcible attempt at it.

D.: It is said that kama (desire), krodha (anger), etc.. vanish in the presence of the Sadguru. Is it so?
M.: It is correct. Kama and krodha must vanish before SelfRealisation.

D.: But all the disciples of a guru are not of the same degree of advancement. There are found lapses in a few cases. Who is responsible for such lapses?
488


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: There is no connection between Self-Realisation and individual predispositions (samskara). It is not always possible to live up to the ideal of the Guru.

D.: Do not passions affect Realisation?
M.: The attempt to cleanse oneself will be automatic.

D.: Is it not necessary to wash off all impurities before Realisation?
M.: Jnana will wash them clean.

D.: Gandhiji is often perplexed finding his intimate disciples going wrong. He wonders how it could happen and thinks that it is due to his own defects. Is it so?
M.: (Sri Bhagavan smiled and answered after a few minutes) Gandhiji has struggled so long to perfect himself. All others will be right in due course.

D.: Is the Hindu view of reincarnation correct?
M.: No definite answer is possible for this question. There are pros and cons for the view. Even the present birth is denied natvevaham jatu nasam etc., (Bhagavad Gita). We were never born, etc.

D.: Is not individuality anadi (without beginning)?
M.: Investigate and see if there is any individuality at all. Ask this question after solving this problem.

Nammalvar says: "In ignorance I took the ego to be myself; however, with right knowledge, the ego is nowhere and only you remain as the SELF."
Both monists and dualists are agreed on the necessity of SelfRealisation. Let us do it first and then discuss the side-issues.

Advaita or dvaita cannot be decided on theoretical considerations alone. If the Self is realised the question will not arise at all. Even
Suka had no confidence in his brahmacharya whereas Sri Krishna was sure of his brahmacharya. Self-Realisation is designated by so many different names, satya, brahmacharya, etc. What is natural to the state of Self-Realisation forms the disciplinary course in the other state. "I-am-the-body" idea will become extinct only on
Self-Realisation. With its extinction the vasanas become extinct and all virtues will remain ever.

489


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: Samskaras are said to persist even in a Jnani.

M.: Yes. They are bhoga hetu (leading to enjoyment only) and not bandha hetu.

D.: This fact is often abused by fakes who pretend to be sadhus but lead vicious lives. They say it is prarabdha (remnant of past Karma).

How shall we mark off the fakes from the genuine sadhus?
M.: The one who has given up the idea of being the doer cannot repeat, "This is my prarabdha". "The jnanis lead different lives" is said for the benefit of others. The jnanis cannot make use of this in explanation of their lives and conduct.

(After a few minutes, Sri Bhagavan remarked about Mr. Kishorelal's weak body).

Mr. Kishorelal: I am asthmatic. I have never been strong. Even as a baby I was not fed on my mother's milk.

M.: Here the mind is strong and the body is weak.

D.: I wanted to practise Raja Yoga. I could not do it because of my physical unfitness. The mind also began to wander with the movement of the body.

M.: If the mind be kept immovable let the body change as much as it likes.

D.: Is it not a handicap to the beginner?
M.: Attempts must be made in spite of handicaps.

D.: Of course. But they will be momentary.

M.: The idea of 'momentary' is one among so many other ideas. So long as thoughts persist this idea also will recur. Concentration is our own nature (i.e. BE-ing). There is the effort now: but it ceases after Self-Realisation.

D.: It is said to be the interval between flights of mind
M.: This too is due to the activity of the mind.

The Devotee submitted that whenever he had thought that he had found something original, he later discovered that he was already forestalled.

Sri Bhagavan pointed out that everything remains already in the germinal form and so there can be nothing new.

490


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

8th May, 1938
Talk 492.

In a suit by the temple against the Government regarding the ownership of the Hill Sri Bhagavan was cited as a witness. He was examined by a commission. In the course of the examination-in-chief Sri Bhagavan said that Siva always remains in three forms: (1) as Parabrahman (2) as Linga (here as the Hill) and (3) as Siddha. (Brahma Rupa; Linga
Rupa; Siddha Rupa).

There are some tirthas on the Hill, e.g., Mulaipal Tirtha and Pada
Tirtha, said to have been originated for or by Virupakshi Devar and
Guha Namassivayar. There is also Rshabha Tirtha. All of them are in good condition.

Siva originally appeared as a column of Light. On being prayed to, the
Light disappeared into the Hill and manifested as Linga. Both are Siva.

Maharshi said: The buildings or asramams grow around me. I do not wish for them. I do not ask for them nor prevent their formation. I have known that actions are done even though I did not want them to be done. So I conclude that they must happen and I therefore do not say 'no'.

Question: Is the present Sarvadhikari to be your successor?
M.: Yes. Only management.

(i.e., succession here means simple supervision).

Question: Is the work now being carried out by him?
M.: He simply supervises the work. The work is being done by others as well.


18th May, 1938
Talk 493.

An Andhra visitor: What will aid me to fix my attention always at
Thy Holy Feet?
M.: The thought 'Am I ever away from the feet?'
D.: How is this thought to be fixed?
M.: By driving away other thoughts which counteract this.

491


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Talk 494.

Sri Bhagavan had gone through "Turn Eastwards" - the whole book of Mademoiselle Pascaline Maillert - and spoke for about an hour on that book. He said that the writing is full of feeling and the writer is sincere. The book is written in simple style and finishes off with remembrance of Himself. A few errors here and there might be pointed out to be corrected in subsequent editions. Nandanar Charitra has been repeated twice under the mistaken notion that the incident was on two different occasions. Prithvi, Ap, etc., lingas are wrongly located. Sri Bhagavan thinks the book well-written. He interprets
"Turn Eastwards" as "Turn to the Source of Light". This book is a good supplement to Mr. Brunton's book.


29th May, 1938
Talk 495.

A Cochin Brahmin, Professor in the Ernakulam College, had an interesting conversation with Sri Bhagavan. Sri Bhagavan advised surrender to God.

The visitor gave a glimpse of an ICS Officer. The gentleman while a student was an atheist or an agnostic. He is very pious now and the change has surprised everyone who had known him before.

In further conversation, the following points were noteworthy The visitor said: "One must become satiate with the fulfilment of desires before they are renounced." Sri Bhagavan smiled and cut in: "Fire might as well be put out by pouring spirit over the flames.

(All laugh). The more the desires are fulfilled, the deeper grows the samskara. They must become weaker before they cease to assert themselves. That weakness is brought about by restraining oneself and not by losing oneself in desires.

D.: How can they be rendered weaker?
M.: By knowledge. You know that you are not the mind. The desires are in the mind. Such knowledge helps one to control them.

D.: But they are not controlled in our practical lives.

M.: Every time you attempt satisfaction of a desire the knowledge comes that it is better to desist. Repeated reminders of this kind
492


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi will in due course weaken the desires. What is your true nature?
How can you ever forget it? Waking, dream and sleep are mere phases of the mind. They are not of the Self. You are the witness of these states. Your true nature is found in sleep.

D.: But we are advised not to fall into sleep during meditation.

M.: That is stupor you must guard against. That sleep which alternates with waking is not true sleep. That waking which alternates with sleep is not true waking. Are you now awake? You are not. You are required to wake up to your real state. You should not fall into false sleep nor keep falsely awake. Hence:
Laye sambodhayeccittam vikshiptam samayet punah.

What does it mean? It means that you should not fall into any one of these states but remain amidst them in your true unsullied nature.

D.: The states are of our mind only.

M.: Whose mind? Hold it and see.

D.: The mind cannot be held. It is that which creates all these. It is known only by its effects and not in its true nature.

M.: Quite so. You see the colours of the spectrum. Together they form the white light. But seven colours are seen through the prism.

Similarly, the one Self resolves itself into so many phases, mind, world, body, etc. The Self is seen as the mind, the body or the world.

That is to say, it becomes whatever you perceive it to be.

D.: These are difficult to follow in practice. I will hold on to God and surrender.

M.: That is the best.

D.: How can I do my duties without attachment? There is my wife, there are my children. I must do my duty towards them. Affection is necessary. Am I right?
M.: How do you do your work in the College?
D.: (laughing) For wages.

M.: Not because you are attached, simply as doing your duty.

D.: But my pupils expect me to love them.

M.: "Detachment in the interior and attachment in appearance," says
Yoga Vasishta.

493


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

9th June, 1938
Talk 496.

A Swami belonging to Sri Ramakrishna Mission had a very interesting conversation with Sri Bhagavan in the course of which Sri Bhagavan observed:
M.: Avidya (ignorance) is the obstacle for knowing your true nature even at the present moment.

D.: How is one to get over Avidya?
M.: Ya na vidyate sa avidya (What is not, is avidya). So it is itself a myth. If it really be, how can it perish? Its being is false and so it disappears.

D.: Although I understand it intellectually, I cannot realise the Self.

M.: Why should this thought disturb your present state of realisation.

D.: The Self is One, but yet I do not find myself free from the present trouble.

M.: Who says this? Is it the Self which is only one? The question contradicts itself.

D.: Grace is necessary for realisation.

M.: Inasmuch as you, being a man, now understand that there is a higher power guiding you, it is due to Grace. Grace is within you.

Isvaro gururatmeti (Isvara, Guru and the Self are synonymous).

D.: I pray for that Grace.

M.: Yes, yes.


10th June, 1938
Talk 497.

In the course of a different conversation. Sri Bhagavan said:
Satva is the light,
Rajas is the subject, and
Tamas is the object.

Even the satva light is only reflected light. Were it pure, original Light, there would be no modification in it. The manokasa (mind-ether) is reflected as bhootakasa (element-ether) and objects are seen as being separate from the subject.

494


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Samadhi is present even in vyavaharadasa (practical life). Our activities (vyavahara) have no existence apart from samadhi. The screen is there when the pictures move past on it and also when they are not projected. Similarly, the Self is always there in vyavahara
(activity) or in shanti (peace).

Talk 498.

People often say that a mukta purusha should go out and preach his message to the people. They argue, how can anyone be a mukta so long as there is misery by his side? True. But who is a mukta? Does he see misery beside him? They want to determine the state of a mukta without themselves realising the state. From the standpoint of the mukta their contention amounts to this: a man dreams a dream in which he finds several persons. On waking up, he asks, "Have the dream individuals also wakened?" It is ridiculous.

Again, a good man says, "It does not matter even if I do not get mukti.

Or let me be the last man to get it so that I shall help all others to be muktas before I am one." It is all very good. Imagine a dreamer saying, "May all these wake up before I do". The dreamer is no more absurd than the amiable philosopher aforesaid.

Talk 499.

The Swami of Sri Ramakrishna Mission had more questions to ask:
Swamiji, I went up the hill to see the asramas in which you lived in your youth. I have also read your life. May I know if you did not then feel that there is God to whom you should pray or that you should practise something in order to reach this state?
M.: Read the life and you will understand. Jnana and ajnana are of the same degree of truth; that is, both are imagined by the ignorant; that is not true from the standpoint of the Jnani.

D.: Is a Jnani capable or likely to commit sins?
M.: An ajnani sees someone as a Jnani and identifies him with the body. Because he does not know the Self and, mistakes his body for the Self, he extends the same mistake to the state of the Jnani.

The Jnani is therefore considered to be the physical frame.

495


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Again since the ajnani, though he is not the doer, yet imagines himself to be the doer and considers the actions of the body his own, he thinks the Jnani to be similarly acting when the body is active. But the
Jnani himself knows the Truth and is not confounded. The state of a
Jnani cannot be determined by the ajnani and therefore the question troubles only the ajnani and never does it arise for the Jnani. If he is a doer he must determine the nature of the actions. The Self cannot be the doer. Find out who is the doer and the Self is revealed.

D.: There could be no advaita in actions. That is how the questions arose.

M.: But the stanza says there should be. This 'do' is applicable only to the practiser and not the accomplished ones.

D.: Yes. I quite see it. Moreover, advaita cannot be practised in one's dealings with the Guru. For, consistently with it, he cannot receive instructions.

M.: Yes, the Guru is within and not without. A Tamil saint has said,
"O Guru! always abiding within me, but manifesting now in human form only to guide and protect me!" What is within as the Self manifests in due course as Guru in human shape.

D.: So it amounts to this. To see a Jnani is not to understand him.

You see the jnani's body and not his jnanam. One must therefore be a Jnani to know a Jnani.

M.: The Jnani sees no one as an ajnani. All are only jnanis in his sight.

In the ignorant state one superimposes his ignorance on a Jnani and mistakes him for a doer. In the state of jnana, the Jnani sees nothing separate from the Self. The Self is all shining and only pure jnana. So there is no ajnana in his sight. There is an illustration for this kind of allusion or super-imposition. Two friends went to sleep side by side. One of them dreamt that both of them had gone on a long journey and had strange experiences. On waking up he recapitulated them and asked his friend if it was not so. The other one simply ridiculed him saying that it was only his dream and could not affect the other.

So it is with the ajnani who superimposes his illusive ideas on others.

496


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Regarding ajnana in early youth and jnana at the present time, Sri
Bhagavan said: There is no jnana as it is commonly understood.

The ordinary ideas of jnana and ajnana are only relative and false.

They are not real and therefore not abiding. The true state is the non-dual Self. It is eternal and abides whether one is aware or not.

It is like kanthabharana or the tenth man.

D.: Someone else points it out.

M.: That one is not external. You mistake the body for the Guru. But the Guru does not think himself so. He is the formless Self. That is within you; he appears without only to guide you.



questions, comments, suggestions/feedback, take-down requests, contribute, etc
contact me @ integralyogin@gmail.com or
join the integral discord server (chatrooms)
if the page you visited was empty, it may be noted and I will try to fill it out. cheers


OBJECT INSTANCES [0] - TOPICS - AUTHORS - BOOKS - CHAPTERS - CLASSES - SEE ALSO - SIMILAR TITLES

TOPICS
SEE ALSO


AUTH

BOOKS

IN CHAPTERS TITLE
1.450_-_1.500_Talks

IN CHAPTERS CLASSNAME

IN CHAPTERS TEXT
1.450_-_1.500_Talks

PRIMARY CLASS

chapter
SIMILAR TITLES

DEFINITIONS



QUOTES [0 / 0 - 0 / 0]


KEYS (10k)


NEW FULL DB (2.4M)


*** NEWFULLDB 2.4M ***


IN CHAPTERS [0/0]









WORDNET


































IN WEBGEN [10000/0]



change font "color":
change "background-color":
change "font-family":
change "padding":
change "table font size":
last updated: 2022-02-02 19:09:50
113211 site hits