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object:1.400 - 1.450 Talks
book class:Talks
class:chapter

Talk 400.

In the course of another conversation Sri Bhagavan said: Photisms add zest to meditation and nothing more.


16th April, 1937
Talk 401.

Mr. Krishnamurti, an Andhra gentleman, asked as follows:- When we make tapas, on what object must we fix our sight? Our mind is fixed on what we utter.

M.: What is tapas for?
D.: For Self-Realisation.

M.: Quite so. Tapas depends on the competency of the person. One requires a form to contemplate. But it is not enough. For can anyone keep looking at an image always? So the image must be implemented by japa. Japa helps fixing the mind on the image, in addition to the eyesight. The result of these efforts is concentration of mind, which ends in the goal. He becomes what he thinks. Some are satisfied with the name of the image. Every form must have a name. That name denotes all the qualities of God. Constant japa puts off all other thoughts and fixes the mind. That is tapas. One-pointedness is the tapas wanted.

The question what tapas is was asked in order to know what purpose to serve. It will take the form required for the purpose.

D.: Are not physical austerities also tapas?
M.: May be one form of it. They are due to vairagya (dispassion) .

D.: I have seen a man with his arm lifted all his life.

390


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: That is vairagya.

D.: Why should one afflict his body for the purpose?
M.: You think it is affliction whereas it is a vow and for the other man it is an achievement and a pleasure.

Dhyana may be external or internal or both. Japa is more important than external form. It must be done until it becomes natural. It starts with effort and is continued until it proceeds of itself. When natural it is called Realisation.

Japa may be done even while engaged in other work. That which is, the One Reality. It may be represented by a form, a japa, mantra, vichara or any kind of attempt. All of them finally resolve themselves into that One Single Reality. Bhakti, vichara, japa are only different forms of our efforts to keep out the unreality. The unreality is an obsession at present. Reality is our true nature. We are wrongly persisting in unreality, that is, thoughts and worldly activities. Cessation of these will reveal the Truth. Our attempts are directed towards keeping them out. It is done by thinking of the Reality only. Although it is our true nature it looks as if we are thinking of the Reality. What we do really amounts to the removal of obstacles for the revelation of our true Being. Meditation or vichara is thus a reversion to our true nature.

D.: Are our attempts sure to succeed?
M.: Realisation is our nature. It is nothing new to be gained. What is new cannot be eternal. Therefore there is no need for doubting if one would lose or gain the Self.

Talk 402.

While speaking of the Brain and the Heart Sri Bhagavan recalled an incident of old days as follows:Kavyakantha Ganapati Muni once argued that the brain was the most important centre and Sri Bhagavan maintained that the Heart was even more so. There were others watching the discourse. A few days after
Sri Bhagavan received a letter containing a short poem in English on that discourse from a young boy, N. S. Arunachalam, who had not yet matriculated.

391


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
That poem is remarkable for its poetic imagination. Sri Bhagavan,
Kavyakantha, and the assemblage of other persons are represented as the Heart, the brain and the body respectively, and again as the sun, the moon and the earth also. The light from the sun is reflected on the moon and the earth is illumined. Similarly the brain acts by consciousness derived from the Heart and the body is thus protected.

This teaching of Sri Bhagavan is found in Ramana Gita also. The
Heart is the most important centre from which vitality and light radiate to the brain, thus enabling it to function. The vasanas are enclosed in the Heart in their subtlest form, later flowing to the brain which reflects them highly magnified corresponding to a cinema-show at every stage. That is how the world is said to be nothing more than a cinema-show.

Sri Bhagavan also added:- Were the vasanas in the brain instead of in the Heart they must be extinguished if the head is cut off so that reincarnations will be at an end. But it is not so. The Self obviously safeguards the vasanas in its closest proximity, i.e. within itself in the
Heart, just as a miser keeps his most valued possessions (treasure) with himself and never out of contact. Hence the place where the vasanas are, is the Self, i.e., the Heart, and not the brain (which is only the theatre for the play of the vasanas from the greenhouse of the Heart.)

17th April, 1937
Talk 403.

There was some reference to the extract from the Modern Psychological
Review, wondering if any instruments could be of use in detecting the Heart-centre and if proper subjects were available for recording the experience of the adepts in the spiritual path, and so on. Others were speaking. Sri Bhagavan said: In the incident mentioned in the book Self-Realization that I became unconscious and symptoms of death supervened, I was all along aware. I could feel the action of the physical heart stopped and equally the action of the Heart-centre unimpaired. This state lasted about a quarter of an hour.

We asked if it was true that some disciples have had the privilege of feeling
Sri Bhagavan's Heart-centre to be on the right by placing their hands on
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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Sri Bhagavan's chest. Sri Bhagavan said, "Yes." (Mr. Viswanatha Iyer,
Narayana Reddi and others have said they felt Sri Bhagavan's Heartcentre to be on the right by placing their hands on his chest).

A devotee rightly observed that if hands could feel and locate the
Heart-centre, delicate scientific instruments should certainly do it.

D.: The Heart is said to be on the right, on the left or in the centre. With such differences of opinion how are we to meditate on Hridaya?
M.: You are and it is a fact. Dhyana is by you, of you, and in you. It must go on where you are. It cannot be outside you. So you are the centre of dhyana and that is the Heart.

A location is however given to it with reference to the body. You know that you are. Where are you? You are in the body and not out of it. Yet not the whole body. Though you pervade the whole body still you admit of a centre where from all your thoughts start and wherein they subside. Even when the limbs are amputated you are there but with defective senses. So a centre must be admitted.

That is called the Heart. The Heart is not merely the centre but the
Self. Heart is only another name for the Self.

Doubts arise only when you identify it with something tangible and physical. The scriptures no doubt describe it as the source of
101 nadis, etc. In Yoga Vasishta Chudala says that kundalini is composed of 101 nadis, thus identifying one with the other.

Heart is no conception, no object for meditation. But it is the seat of meditation; the Self remains all alone. You see the body in the
Heart, the world in it. There is nothing separate from it. So all kinds of effort are located there only.


18th April, 1937
Talk 404.

A casual visitor asked: What is nishta? How is the look to be directed between the eyebrows?
M.: How do we see these things? There is a light by which these are seen. Your question amounts to asking how that light is seen.

D.: What is the significance of the spot between the eyebrows?
393


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
M.: That is mentioned as if to say: "Do not see with your eyes."
D.: What is regulation of breath for?
M.: Only to control the mind.

Again after a few minutes Sri Bhagavan continued: The mind functions both as light and as objects. If divested of things the light alone will remain over.

D.: But we must know that there is such light.

M.: Sight or cognition is impossible without such light. How do you cognise anything in sleep? Our cognition pertains to the present state because there is light. Light is the essential requisite for sight.

It is plain in our daily life. Among the lights, sunlight is the most important. Hence they speak of the glory of millions of suns.

D.: There is light if we press the eyelids with our fingers.

Another questioner: What is the use of seeing such a light?
M.: It is done lest we forget the goal. The practice helps one not to divert the attention to other pursuits.

The object is seen or the light is recognised because there is the subject to do so. How does it affect the subject whether the objects are seen or not? If the light, i.e., the cogniser or the consciousness is seen, there will be no object to be seen. Pure light, i.e.,
Consciousness, will alone remain over.

D.: Why then is the regulation of breath necessary?
M.: Control of breath or its regulation is only for controlling the mind so that the mind may not wander away.

D.: Is it for control of mind only?
M.: It is not enough that light is seen; it is also necessary to have the mind engaged in a single activity, e.g., the elephant trunk and the chain.

D.: How long will it take for one to gain Chintamani (the celestial gem granting all the wishes of its owner)?
M.: The example of Chintamani is found in Yoga Vasishta. Chintamani signifies the Real nature of the Self. The story is as follows:A man was making tapasya for gaining Chintamani. A gem mysteriously fell into his hands. He thought that it could not be
394


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Chintamani because his efforts had been too short and too little to gain the gem. He discarded it and continued the tapas. Later a sadhu placed before him a brilliant pebble with facets cut. The man was taken in by its appearance but found that it could not fulfil his desires as he originally supposed. Similarly, the Self, being inherent, should not be sought for elsewhere.

Again, an elephant used to be often teased by its keeper. He once had an accident and fell down. The elephant could have killed him on the spot but did not do so. Later, however, the keeper dug a big pit in the forest and killed the elephant.

Chudala illustrated Sikhidhvaja's error by this story. He had vairagya even while ruling his kingdom and could have realised the Self if only he had pushed his vairagya to the point of killing the ego. He did not do it, but came to the forest, had a timetable of tapas and yet did not improve even after 18 years of tapas. He had made himself a victim of his own creation. Chudala advised him to give up the ego and realise the Self which he did and was liberated.

It is clear from Chudala's story that vairagya accompanied by ego is of no value, whereas all possessions in the absence of ego do not matter.


19th April, 1937
Talk 405.

A respectable and orthodox gentleman asked about Sri Chakra.

M.: It has a deep significance. There are 43 corners with sacred syllables in them. Its worship is a method for concentration of mind. The mind is wont to move externally. It must be checked and turned within. Its habit is to dwell on names and forms, for all external objects possess names and forms. Such names and forms are made symbolic mental conceptions in order to divert the mind from external objects and make it dwell within itself. The idols, mantras, yantras, are all meant to give food to the mind in its introvert state, so that It may later become capable of being concentrated, after which the superb state is reached automatically.

395


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

20th April, 1937
Talk 406.

Mr. Cohen, a resident disciple, has been for some days past thinking about a book called Nirvana written by a prominent Theosophist, wherein the author claims to reach nirvana every night after going to sleep. He claims to see his own Master and other Masters of the
Theosophical Society as bright lights within the ocean of light which is nirvana. He asked Sri Bhagavan how it could be possible, considering the Advaitic teaching that the nirvanic experience is the same as that of the pure consciousness of Being.

M.: Nirvana is Perfection. In the Perfect State there is neither subject nor object; there is nothing to see, nothing to feel, nothing to know.

Seeing and knowing are the functions of the mind. In nirvana there is nothing but the blissful pure consciousness "I am."
D.: How then can a prominent T. S. leader, who claims clairvoyance of a high order, praise the author for his supposed correct and vivid description of nirvana, and why is the T. Society so much obsessed by the idea of 'Service'?
M.: Well, Theosophy and other kindred movements are good inasmuch as they make a man unselfish and prepare him for the highest truth.

Service, like prayers, japas and even business done in God's name, lead to the highest goal - Self-Realisation.

D.: But after how long? and why should a man who is ready for the
Absolute knowledge stick to the knowledge of the Relative?
M.: Everything happens in its own time. The one who is ready for the absolute knowledge will be made somehow to hear of it and follow it up. He will realise that Atmavidya is the highest of all virtues and also the end of the journey.

Then, asked about the difference between external and internal nirvikalpa samadhis, referring to article 391 above, the Master said:
External samadhi is holding on to the Reality while witnessing the world, without reacting to it from within. There is the stillness of a waveless ocean. The internal samadhi involves loss of bodyconsciousness.

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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
D.: Is loss of body-consciousness a perquisite to the attainment of sahaja samadhi?
M.: What is body-consciousness? Analyse it. There must be a body and consciousness limited to it which together make up bodyconsciousness. These must lie in another Consciousness which is absolute and unaffected. Hold it. That is samadhi.

It exists when there is no body-consciousness because it transcends the latter, it also exists when there is the body-consciousness. So it is always there.

What does it matter whether body-consciousness is lost or retained?
When lost it is internal samadhi: when retained, it is external samadhi. That is all.

A person must remain in any of the six samadhis so that sahaja samadhi may be easy for him.

D.: The mind does not sink into that state even for a second.

M.: A strong conviction is necessary that I am the Self, transcending the mind and the phenomena.

D.: Nevertheless, the mind proves to be a cord against attempts to sink it.

M.: What does it matter if the mind is active? It is so only on the substratum of the Self. Hold the Self even during mental activities.

D.: I cannot go within sufficiently deep.

M.: It is wrong to say so. Where are you now if not in the Self? Where should you go?
All that is necessary is the stern belief that you are the Self. Say rather that the other activities throw a veil on you.

D.: Yes, it is so.

M.: That means that the conviction is weak.

D.: I understand that the 'I' is only artificial (krtrima), my attempts at realising the real 'I' are unavailing because the artificial 'I' is brought into action for realising the other.

M.: Viveka Chudamani makes it clear that the artificial 'I' of the vijnana kosa is a projection and through it one must look to the significance (vachya) of 'I', the true principle.

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Talk 407.

D.: St. Theresa and others saw the image of Madonna animated. It was external. Others see the images of their devotion in their mental sight.

This is internal. Is there any difference in degree in these two cases?
M.: Both indicate that the person has strongly developed meditation.

Both are good and progressive. There is no difference in degree.

The one has a conception of divinity and draws mental images and feels them. The other has the conception of divinity in the image and feels it in the image. The feeling is within in both instances.


21st April, 1937
Talk 408.

With reference to the location of the Heart centre on the right side of the human body, Sri Bhagavan said:I had been saying all along that the Heart centre was on the right, notwithstanding the refutation by some learned men that physiology taught them otherwise. I speak from experience. I knew it even in my home during my trances. Again during the incident related in the book Self-Realisation I had a very clear vision and experience. All of a sudden a light came from one side erasing the world vision in its course until it spread all round when the vision of the world was completely cut out. I felt the muscular organ on the left had stopped work, I could understand that the body was like a corpse, that the circulation of blood had stopped and the body became blue and motionless. Vasudeva Sastri embraced the body, wept over my death, but I could not speak. All the time I was feeling that the
Heart centre on the right was working as well as ever. This state continued
15 or 20 minutes. Then suddenly something shot out from the right to the left resembling a rocket bursting in air. The blood circulation was resumed and normal condition restored. I then asked Vasudeva Sastri to move along with me and we reached our residence.

The Upanishads say that 101 nadis terminate in the Heart and 72,000 originate from them and traverse the body. The Heart is thus the centre of the body. It can be a centre because we have been accustomed to think that we remain in the body. In fact the body and all else are in that centre only.

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REMINISCENCES
Talk 409.

A middle-aged man prostrated himself before Sri Bhagavan, who asked him about his well-being. After a few minutes Sri Bhagavan recalled an incident saying that this was the only person whom Sri
Bhagavan had slapped; it happened about 30 years earlier.

Sri Bhagavan was living in Mulaippal Tirtha. There was a Jada Swami living in the neighbourhood (Mamarathu Guhai). This man, who was then about 8 years of age, used to play pranks with all, including Sri
Bhagavan.

One day he went to Maharshi and said that Jada Swami wanted a bucket. Without waiting for permission, he took away the bucket.

Palani Swami the attendant, was not there. So Sri Bhagavan followed the boy to Jada Swami's place. Before Bhagavan reached the place the boy had told the other that Brahmanaswami had sent him a bucket.

Jada Swami was wondering why! In a few minutes Maharshi reached the place and learnt what had passed. So he raised His hand to give a slap to the boy but the mind would not yield to slapping. But He argued within Himself and determined that the urchin should be slapped and so he did it.

Talk 410.

There is a Tamil stanza by Awai. It is an address of the prana to the stomach; its meaning is:
"O stomach! How difficult it is to get on with you! You cannot starve when no food is available, nor can you take more and keep it in reserve when food is plenty! You will take only what you want and when you want; thus you are troublesome to me, allowing me no rest."
Sri Bhagavan altered it thus: Stomach addressing the prana: "O Prana!
How troublesome you are to me! You never allow me to rest but continue loading me with food off and on. It is so difficult to get on with you."
Saying it Sri Bhagavan laughed. Sri Bhagavan often says that He is made to eat more than is good for Him.

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21st May, 1937
Talk 411.

Sri Bhagavan, while speaking of the marriage ceremony among the
Brahmins, said that the Kasiyatra represents the bridegroom to be a vairagi-purusha. It is therefore right that he should be given a kanya
(virgin) for leading a householder's life. It follows that a vairagi can alone be a good householder.

Talk 412.

Once on a cold day Sri Bhagavan was sitting in a cave on the hill with
His hands folded on the breast as a protection against the cold. Some
Andhra visitor had come; he broke a coconut and poured the cold juice on Sri Bhagavan's head as abhisheka; Sri Bhagavan was surprised.

Talk 413.

A visitor asked: While making nama-japa and after continuing it for an hour or more I fall into a state like sleep. On waking up, I recollect that my japa has been interrupted. So I proceed again.

M.: "Like sleep." That is right. It is the natural state. Because you are now associated with the ego you consider the natural state to be something which interrupts your work. You must repeat the experience until you realise that it is your natural state. You will then find that japa, etc., is extraneous. Still, it will be going on automatically. Your present doubt is due to the false identity.

Japa means clinging to one thought to the exclusion of all other thoughts. That is the purpose of japa; it leads to dhyana which ends in Self-Realisation.

Talk 414.

Mr. G. V. Subbaramiah, a devotee, has written some short poems, which are interesting. Some of them refer to a child. Sri Bhagavan said
God becomes a child, and vice versa. That means that the samskaras are yet latent in the child and thus its innocence is complete. When they are eradicated even a grown up man becomes a child once again, and thus remains God.

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The author said: The child creates the 'home' atmosphere.

Sri Bhagavan: Yes. The children are always in the 'home'. We too are there but are dreaming and imagining that we are outside the home.

Sri Bhagavan added: I have rendered the word 'youth' (yuva) in Dakshinamurti Stotra by 'child' (bala). This seems more appropriate.

To be reborn is to become children over again. One must be reborn before gaining jnana, i.e., recovering the natural state.

Talk 415.

Sri Bhagavan read out some stanzas on the greatness of the Tamil language from the preface to a Tamil-Tamil Dictionary and explained the references in a very interesting manner. Of the three tests for establishing the superiority of Saivism over Jainism, the first related to Tirujnanasambandar entering the royal presence for curing the
Pandya king of his illness. The queen was anxious because of his tender age, i.e., 12 years. Tirujnanasambandar set her doubts at rest by composing a stanza which said that, though tender, he was more than a match to the strong group of innumerable Jains. While reciting the stanza Sri Bhagavan choked and could not proceed with it.

The second test was the fire leaving the cadjan leaf unburnt, and the third the cadjan leaves opposing the current of the river (Tiruvedakam).

Sri Bhagavan also related the story of God Isvara begging food as an old man, taking food as a youth and saving the devotee woman as a babe, all at once.

He again pointed out 'like babe, lunatic, spirit' (Balonmattapisachavat) describing the states of jnanis. There babe (bala) is given precedence over others.

Talk 416.

Sri Bhagavan said that Kamba Ramayana consists of 12,000 stanzas to Valmiki's 24,000. Kamba's can be understood only by the learned and not by all. Tulasidas had heard Kamba Ramayana recited to him in Hindi by a Tamil saint and later wrote his famous Ramayana.

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Talk 417.

The Perfect Master is a book on Meher Baba published in 1937.

There is an incident of a ship's officer instructing the reluctant
Immigration Officer to let Baba and his party land in New York,
USA. When one of the party went to thank him he was nowhere to be found.

The incident is recorded so as to leave an impression of a miracle happening in favour of Baba. The passage was read out to Sri
Bhagavan.

Bhagavan said: Yes, yes, what of that?
D.: Is it a miracle?
M.: Maybe. But did not the Immigration Officer recognise the other to be his superior officer whose orders should be obeyed? There is an end of the matter. If a man of Baba's party could not find him
- well, it may be due to several reasons.

Talk 418.

Asked if Sri Bhagavan had read Kamba Ramayana, Sri Bhagavan said: No. I have not read anything. All my learning is limited to what
I learnt before my 14th year.

Since then I have had no inclination to read or learn. People wonder how I speak of Bhagavad Gita, etc. It is due to hearsay. I have not read Gita nor waded through commentaries for its meaning. When I hear a sloka I think that its meaning is clear and I say it. That is all and nothing more.

Similarly with my other quotations. They come out naturally. I realise that the Truth is beyond speech and intellect. Why then should I project the mind to read, understand and repeat stanzas, etc.? Their purpose is to know the Truth. The purpose having been gained, there is no use engaging in studies.

Someone remarked: If Sri Bhagavan had been inclined to study there would not be a saint today.

M.: Probably all my studies were finished in past births and I was surfeit.

There is therefore no samskara operating now in that direction.

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Talk 419.

The week before the Mahapuja (3rd June, 1937) has brought many visitors including some relatives of Sri Bhagavan. There is among them an elderly lady - the widow of Subbier in whose house Sri
Bhagavan was living when he left home in August 1896.

Old memories revived when Sri Bhagavan saw her.

He remembered how on a festive occasion he was asked to help her in making some modakas (delicacies), but he hesitated and finally refused, because he was obliged to change his clothes and he could put on only koupina (loin-cloth or codpiece) which made him feel shy.

He was reprimanded by his uncle and this lady. The uncle's wife said with humility and gentleness: "Quite. No wonder that one destined for this high state could not do such humble work in those days."
Then Sri Bhagavan remarked, "If I refused to wear koupina once, I am now made to pay the penalty by wearing it always."
The lady recalled to her mind how Sri Ramana was suffering from headache for several days together.

Sri Bhagavan said: Yes, yes! It was the month before I left Madura. It was not headache, but an inexpressible anguish which I suppressed at the time; these were however the outward symptoms which, I said, were due to headache. I remember how anxious you grew on account of my headache. You used to rub some ointment on my forehead every day.

My anguish continued until I left Madura and reached this place.


4th June, 1937
Talk 420.

A certain lawyer from Cuddalore quoted as follows: "Neither the sun shines there, nor the moon, nor the stars, nor lightning. How can fire shine there? All these luminaries shine in His Light only.

With His Light, all these shine forth!" He asked, what does 'with
His Light' mean here? Does all else shine on account of Him, or in His Light?
M.: There is only He. He and His Light are the same. There is no individual to perceive other things, because the perceiver and the perceived are only He. The sun, the moon, etc., shine forth. How?
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Do they come and tell you that they shine forth or does another apart from them say that they shine forth?
D.: Of course I say that they shine forth.

M.: Therefore they shine on account of you. Again consciousness is necessary to know that they shine forth. That consciousness is your
Self or you. So then you or your consciousness is the same as He and His Light by which all else shine forth.

D.: Is that Light like sunlight?
M.: No. The sunlight is jada (insentient). You are aware of it. It makes objects perceptible and chases away darkness, whereas consciousness is that Light which makes not only light but also darkness perceptible. Darkness cannot exist before sunlight, but it can remain in the Light of Consciousness. Similarly, this consciousness is pure Knowledge in which both knowledge and ignorance shine.

D.: If God is all why does the individual suffer for his actions? Are not the actions prompted by Him for which the individual is made to suffer?
M.: He who thinks he is the doer is also the sufferer.

D.: But the actions are prompted by God and the individual is only
His tool.

M.: This logic is applied only when one suffers, but not when one rejoices. If the conviction prevails always, there will be no suffering either.

D.: When will the suffering cease?
M.: Not until individuality is lost. If both the good and bad actions are
His, why should you think that the enjoyment and suffering are alone yours? He who does good or bad, also enjoys pleasure or suffers pain.

Leave it there and do not superimpose suffering on yourself.

Talk 421.

A resident devotee, Kunju Swami, related an observation of Sri
Maharshi after the robbery in the Asramam in 1923.

Some disciples were asking why the robbers should be allowed to molest even sadhus and why the sadhus would not protect themselves and their dependents from the robbers.

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Sri Bhagavan observed: There were rishis like Visvamitra who could duplicate the universe if they wished. They lived during the lifetime of Ravana who caused agony even to Sita and Rama among others. Could not Visvamitra have destroyed Ravana by his occult powers? Though capable he kept still. Why? The occurrences are known to the sages, but pass away without leaving an impression on their minds. Even a deluge will appear a trifle to them; they do not care for anything.


7th June, 1937
Talk 422.

Dr. Venkata Rao, a visitor from Guntur, asked: A Guru asks his disciple to do things contrary to ethical principles. But the disciple, having accepted the person as the master, desires to please the master but his moral sense obstructs him. What should he do under the circumstances?
M.: (No reply).

D.: I shall make myself clear. The Guru asked his disciple to commit a theft and the disciple did not do it. The master then said, "I wanted to test you to see if you had completely surrendered yourself or retained your individuality. It is now clear what it is." Is the Guru right in ordering the disciple that way?
M.: (Still no reply).

Another person observed: There are persons on whom I refuse to sit in judgement. Still I cannot help feeling if they deserve the appellation of Gurus. They appear bogus men. If they be really worthy they would not order the disciples in that way.

M.: But the person says, "It is for a test."
The questioner continued: Should it be carried out?
M.: Your original statement contains the answer to your question.

Both the questioners jointly asked: The action is disagreeable. Can it be done?
M.: The question might be referred to the person himself, i.e., the
Guru. He is responsible for the situation.

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Talk 423.

A young man asked: I try to cultivate will-power but do not succeed.

How should I do it?
M.: (No answer)
D.: I came here three years ago and Sri Bhagavan said that will-power is necessary for strength of mind. Since then I have been desiring to cultivate it but without success.

M.: (No answer)
D.: During these years I have had 4 or 5 reverses. They upset me considerably. There is always the fear of failure haunting my attempts.

This results in want of faith in myself which certainly foredooms my efforts to failure. Nothing in fact succeeds like success; and also nothing foils one's attempts like failure. Hence my question.

M.: (No answer).

D.: Is not will-power necessary for success? It should ensure success and also rule out failure.

M.: (No answer)
D.: I try to gain will-power. After these years I find myself only where
I began. There is no progress.

M.: (No answer)
D.: What are the means for gaining will-power?
M.: Your idea of will-power is success insured. Will-power should be understood to be the strength of mind which makes it capable for meeting success or failure with equanimity. It is not synonymous with certain success. Why should one's attempts be always attended with success? Success develops arrogance and the man's spiritual progress is thus arrested. Failure on the other hand is beneficial, inasmuch as it opens the eyes of the man to his limitations and prepares him to surrender himself. Self-surrender is synonymous with eternal happiness. Therefore one should try to gain the equipoise of mind under all circumstances. That is will-power.

Again, success and failure are the results of prarabdha and not of will-power. A man may be doing only good and noble actions and yet prove a failure. Another may do otherwise and yet be uniformly
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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi successful. This does not mean that the will-power is present in the one and not in the other.

D.: Is it not said in the book Truth Revealed (Ulladu Narpadu) that the world is a product of the mind?
M.: Yes.

D.: Does it not follow that the mind grown strong brings the world under control?
M.: The mind in its external activities gives rise to the world. Such activities fritter away the strength of the mind. Its strength lies in being confined to itself with the external activities arrested.

D.: There is an idiot who cannot count up to ten. His mind does not certainly wander as does that of a thinker. Is the former a better man than the latter?
M.: Who says that he is an idiot? Your mind in its wandering says so.

D.: Is will-power gained by divesting oneself of thoughts?
M.: Rather by confining oneself to a single thought. Ultimately this will also disappear, leaving Pure Consciousness behind.

Concentration helps one to it.

D.: So then, it is gained by directing the mind and concentrating it.

The personality has nothing to do with it.

M.: Personality is the root-cause of external activities. It must sink for gaining the highest good.

Talk 424.

In the course of conversation with a learned man who asked about
Purusha and Prakriti, Sri Bhagavan said:
Purusha and Prakriti are only the bifurcation of the one Supreme.

They are surmised because the student has the sense of duality deep rooted. The same Gita also says that Purushottama lies beyond
Purusha and Prakriti.

D.: What are para-nadi, Sushumna nadi and the Heart?
M.: But Sushumna resolves into the para (Sushumnatu pareleena).

Heart is usually understood to be the muscular organ lying on the left of the chest. The Modern Psychological Review speaks of the
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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi physical organ on the left and the Heart centre on the right. The
Bible says that a fool's heart is on the left and a wise man's on the right. Yoga Vasishta says that there are two hearts; the one is samvit; and the other the blood-vessel.

D.: What is Anahata?
M.: Anahata is the chakra lying behind the heart. It is not samvit.

Lalita Sahasranama has it, Anahata chakrasthayai namo namah
(Salutations to the core situated in Anahata) and the next mantra
Hrit (in the Heart). Thus it is clear that Anahata is not the same as Hrit.

Talk 425.

Will-power or any other is gained by practice (abhyasa).

D.: Is success not dependent on Guru's Grace?
M.: Yes, it is. Is not your practice itself due to such Grace? The fruits are the result of the practice and follow it automatically. There is a stanza in Kaivalya which says, "O Guru! You have been always with me watching me through several reincarnations, and ordaining my course until I was liberated." The Self manifests externally as Guru when occasion arises; otherwise He is always within, doing the needful.


12th June, 1937
Talk 426.

Mr. Das, of Allahabad University: Has the food which one usually takes anything to do with increase or decrease of one's spirituality?
That is, does it influence spirituality for good or bad?
M.: Yes. Satvic food in moderate quantity is helpful to spiritual development.

D.: For a grihi, i.e., a man of the world (householder), what conduct in life will help him most spiritually?
M.: Dhyana or bhakti, which mean the same thing.

D.: What is meant by taking the name of God? How to reconcile the following two ideas?
The Bible says: "Do not take the name of God in vain."
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The Hindu sastras enjoin taking the name of God all the time.

M.: One should not use the name of God artificially and superficially without feeling. To use the name of God one must call upon Him and surrender to Him unreservedly. After such surrender the name of God is constantly with the man.

D.: What are the fundamental tests for discovering men of great spirituality, since some are reported to behave like insane people?
M.: The jnani's mind is known only to the Jnani. One must be a Jnani oneself in order to understand another Jnani. However the peace of mind which permeates the saint's atmosphere is the only means by which the seeker understands the greatness of the saint.

His words or actions or appearance are no indications of his greatness, for they are ordinarily beyond the comprehension of common people.

D.: Has man any Free-Will or is everything in his life predestined and preordained?
M.: Free-Will holds the field in association with individuality. As long as individuality lasts so long there is Free-Will. All the sastras are based on this fact and they advise directing the Free-Will in the right channel.

Find out to whom Free-Will or Destiny matters. Abide in it. Then these two are transcended. That is the only purpose of discussing these questions. To whom do these questions arise? Find out and be at peace.

D.: Are intellect and emotion, like the physical body, growths which come with the birth of man; and do they dissolve or survive after death?
M.: Before considering what happens after death, just consider what happens in your sleep. Sleep is only the interval between two waking states. Do they survive that interval?
D.: Yes, they do.

M.: The same holds good for death also. They represent bodyconsciousness and nothing more. If you are the body they always hold on to you. If you are not the body they do not affect you. The one who was in sleep is now in waking state just speaking. You were not the body in sleep. Are you the body now? Find it out.

Then the whole problem is solved.

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Similarly, that which is born must die. Whose is the birth? Were you born? If you say you were, of whose birth are you speaking?
It is the body which was born and it is that which will die. How do birth and death affect the eternal Self?
Think and say to whom the questions arise. Then you will know.

Talk 427.

D.: It is said that the Universe consists of light and sound. Are these two constituents like the light and sound in the physical world?
Can they be seen and heard with the physical organs - eye and ear?
Or are they to be experienced only subjectively?
M.: Light and sound correspond to bindu and nada in Tantrik terminology, and to the mind and life-current in the Vedantic. They are gross, subtle and transcendental. The organs can perceive the gross aspect; the other aspects are not so perceptible. The subtle can be inferred and the transcendental is only transcendental.

D.: Hinduism lays down reincarnation of the jiva. What happens to the jiva during the interval between the death of one body and the birth of the next one?
M.: Solve this question by referring to the state of sleep. What happens to you in sleep?
D.: I do not know.

M.: Yet you exist. Therefore existence beyond knowledge and ignorance is indicated. Although ignorance was prevailing, according to your present idea, yet you did not say so in sleep. You continued to exist all the same.

Mere ignorance does not rule out the fact of your existence.

D.: In the practice of meditation are there any signs of the nature of subjective experience or otherwise, which will indicate the aspirant's progress towards Self-Realisation
M.: The degree of freedom from unwanted thoughts and the degree of concentration on a single thought are the measure to gauge the progress.

D.: Is it necessary to take to sanyasa for Self-Realisation?
M.: Sanyasa is to renounce one's individuality. This is not the same as tonsure and ochre robes. A man may be a grihi; yet, if he does not think he is a grihi, he is a sanyasi. On the contrary a man may
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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi wear ochre robes and wander about: yet if he thinks he is a sanyasi he is not that. To think of sanyasa defeats its own purpose.

Sri Bhagavan remarked: People see the world. The perception implies the existence of a seer and the seen. The objects are alien to the seer. The seer is intimate, being the Self. They do not however turn their attention to finding out the obvious seer but run about analysing the seen. The more the mind expands, the farther it goes and renders Self-Realisation more difficult and complicated. The man must directly see the seer and realise the Self.

D.: So then, it amounts to synthesising phenomena and finding the one Reality behind.

M.: Why do you still consider the phenomena? See who the seer is.

Synthesis means engaging the mind in other pursuits. That is not the way to Realisation.

D.: I want to eliminate the non-self so that the Self may be realised.

How shall I do it? What are the characteristics of the non-self?
M.: There is one who says that the non-self must be eliminated. Who is he?
D.: I mean this man. When I travel from Calcutta to Madras I must know Madras so that I may not alight at an intermediate station out of ignorance. There are the sign boards and the timetable to guide me in my travel. But what is the guide in my search for the Self?
M.: It is all right for the journey. You know how far away you are from Madras. Can you tell me how far away you are from the Self in order that you should seek it?
D.: I do not know.

M.: Are you ever divorced from the Self? Is it possible to be divorced?
Are not all these alien to you and the Self the most intimate? Where should you go to gain the Self?
D.: I am now away from the Self. I must retrace my steps in order to regain it.

M.: How far away? Who says that he is apart? Can there be two selves?
D.: It is said that individuals are modifications of the Self, just as ornaments are of gold.

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M.: When a man speaks in terms of ornaments ignoring their substance gold, he is told that they are gold. But here the man is consciousness and speaks of himself as its modification. Do you remain apart from
Self that you speak of yourself as Its modification?
D.: Cannot gold be imagined to say that it has become an ornament?
M.: Being insentient, it does not say so. But the individual is sentient and cannot function apart from consciousness. The Self is Pure
Consciousness. Yet the man identifies himself with the body which is itself insentient and does not say "I am the body" of its own accord. Someone else says so. The unlimited Self does not.

Who else is he that says so? A spurious 'I' arises between the Pure
Consciousness and the insentient body and imagines itself limited to the body. Seek this and it will vanish as a phantom. That phantom is the ego, or the mind or the individuality.

All the sastras are based on the rise of this phantom, whose elimination is their purpose. The present state is mere illusion.

Disillusionment is the goal and nothing more.

D.: The mind is said to be a bundle of thoughts.

M.: Because it functions on account of a single root the 'I-thought'.



Manasantu kim margane krte naiva manasam marga arjavat.


It has no real existence as a separate entity.

D.: Are not thoughts projections from the mind?
M.: In that case the mind is taken to be synonymous with the 'Ithought' or the ego.


15th December, 1937
Talk 428.

Sri Bhagavan has selected 10 stanzas from the famous work of Sri
Sankara - Sivananda Lahari - describing devotion (bhakti):
(1) What is bhakti?
Just as the ankola fruit falling from the tree rejoins it or a piece of iron is drawn to magnet, so also thoughts, after rising up, lose themselves
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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi in their original source. This is bhakti. The original source of thoughts is the feet of the Lord, Isvara. Love of His Feet forms bhakti. (61)
(2) Fruit of bhakti:
The thick cloud of bhakti, formed in the transcendental sky of the
Lord's Feet, pours down a rain of Bliss (ananda) and fills the lake of mind to overflowing. Only then the jiva, always transmigrating to no useful end, has his real purpose fulfilled. (76)
(3) Where to place bhakti?
Devotion to gods, who have themselves their origin and end, can result in fruits similarly with origin and end. In order to be in Bliss everlasting our devotion must be directed to its source, namely the
Feet of the ever blissful Lord. (83)
(4) Bhakti is a matter only for experience and not for words:
How can Logic or other polemics be of real use? Can the ghatapatas
(favourite examples of the logicians, meaning the pot and the cloth) save you in a crisis? Why then waste yourself thinking of them and on discussion? Stop exercising the vocal organs and giving them pain. Think of the Feet of the Lord and drink the nectar! (6)
(5) Immortality is the fruit of Devotion:
At the sight of him who in his heart has fixed the Lord's Feet, Death is reminded of his bygone disastrous encounter with Markandeya and flees away.

All other gods worship only Siva, placing their crowned heads at
His feet. Such involuntary worship is only natural to Siva.

Goddess Liberation, His consort, always remains part of Him.

(65)
(6) If only Devotion be there - the conditions of the jiva cannot affect him.

However different the bodies, the mind alone is lost in the Lord's
Feet. Bliss overflows! (10)
(7) Devotion always unimpaired:
Wherever or however it be, only let the mind lose itself in the Supreme.

It is Yoga! It is Bliss! Or the Yogi or the Bliss incarnate! (12)
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(8) Karma Yoga also is Bhakti:
To worship God with flowers and other external objects is troublesome. Only lay the single flower, the heart, at the feet of
Siva and remain at Peace. Not to know this simple thing and to wander about! How foolish! What misery! (9)
(9) This Karma Yoga puts an end to one's samsara:
Whatever the order of life (asrama) of the devotee, only once thought of, Siva relieves the devotee of his load of samsara and takes it on Himself. (11)
(10) Devotion is Jnana:
The mind losing itself in Siva's Feet is Devotion. Ignorance lost!
Knowledge! Liberation! (91)

16th December, 1937
Talk 429.

A few ladies had come from Bangalore. One among them asked:
The world is composed of differences, from our point of view. How shall we able to get over these differences and comprehend the One
Essence of all things?
M.: The differences are the result of the sense of doership (kartritva).

The fruits will be destroyed if the root is destroyed. So relinquish the sense of doership; the differences will vanish and the essential reality will reveal itself.

In order to give up the sense of doership one must seek to find out who the doer is. Enquire within; the sense of doership will vanish.

Vichara (enquiry) is the method.


22nd December, 1937
Talk 430.

A Marathi gentleman asked: I have read much about Self-Realisation;
I do japa, puja, etc.; nothing seems to satisfy me. Can Sri Bhagavan kindly guide me?
M.: What is that you seek to gain? Everyone seeks happiness.

Happiness is one's lot in everyday sleep. Bring about that state of happiness even in the waking state. That is all.

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D.: I do not follow. How is it to be done?
M.: Atma Vichara is the way.

D.: It seems too difficult to adopt, being so intangible. What shall I do if I feel unfit for this method of enquiry?
M.: Guidance is there. It is for individuals to avail themselves of it.


25th December, 1937
Talk 431.

A Telugu gentleman stood up and asked: The mind is said to be pure when all its vasanas are wiped out. It is also the finality. When there is something to be gained is it not duality?
M.: Let the mind be first made pure. If the same question arises thereafter the answer may then be sought.


26th December, 1937
Talk 432.

An Andhra visitor asked: What is sleep?
M.: Why, you experience it every day.

D.: I want to know exactly what it is, so that it may be distinguished from samadhi.

M.: How can you know sleep when you are awake? The answer is to go to sleep and find out what it is.

D.: But I cannot know it in this way.

M.: This question must be raised in sleep.

D.: But I cannot raise the question then.

M.: So, that is sleep.

Sri Bhagavan went out for a few minutes. On his return the same man asked:
Self-realised jnanis are seen to take food and do actions like others. Do they similarly experience the states of dream and of sleep?
M.: Why do you seek to know the state of others, maybe jnanis?
What do you gain by knowing about others? You must seek to know your own real nature.

Who do you think that you are? Evidently, the body.

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D.: Yes.

M.: Similarly, you take the Jnani to be the visible body whereon the actions are superimposed by you. That makes you put these questions. The Jnani himself does not ask if he has the dream or sleep state. He has no doubts himself. The doubts are in you. This must convince you of your wrong premises. The Jnani is not the body. He is the Self of all.

The sleep, dream, samadhi, etc., are all states of the ajnanis.

The Self is free from all these. Here is the answer for the former question also.

D.: I sought to know the state of sthita prajnata (unshaken knowledge).

M.: The sastras are not for the Jnani. He has no doubts to be cleared.

The riddles are for ajnanis only. The sastras are for them alone.

D.: Sleep is the state of nescience and so it is said of samadhi also.

M.: Jnana is beyond knowledge and nescience. There can be no question about that state. It is the Self.

Talk 433.

Mr. Thomas, Professor of Sanskrit, University of Oxford, had presided over the Oriental Conference in Trivandrum and on his way to Calcutta he visited Sri Bhagavan. He is an elderly gentleman with a broad forehead and a quiet manner. He speaks softly and slowly. He evinces great interest in oriental literature, especially Sanskrit. He had heard of the richness of
Tamil. He desired to know which of the English translations of Srimad
Bhagavad Gita was the best. The hall was crowded and a few of them mentioned, with each his own opinion, Thibaut's, Mahadeva Sastri's,
Telang's, etc. Sri Bhagavan made mention of F. T. Brooks. Mr. Thomas desires one in metrical form because it is the proper vehicle for rasa (the essence) contained in it. Rasa is also Peace, he said.

M.: Yes, Brahman is only rasa.

D.: Rasa is also Bliss.

M.: Rasa, Ananda, Peace are all names for the same Bliss.

The Professor was shown Mr. Grant Duff's speech in the Philosophical
Conference held at Paris. Later the book 'Dharma' by Dr. G. H. Mees
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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi was placed in his hands, on seeing which he asked what Sri Bhagavan thought of castes.

M.: The castes relate to bodies and not to Self. The Self is Bliss. To realise Bliss one realises the Self. No need to worry oneself about caste, etc.

D.: The ahamkar is also called the Self.

M.: Ahamkar is limited, whereas the Self is beyond it.

D.: There is much literature in English relating to Eastern philosophy and religion. There are different exponents. The system of
Ramanuja is well presented. Prof. Radhakrishnan expounds the advaitic system. He lays more stress on experience than on evidence. Sankara shows a highly developed mind.

A discussion followed on direct perception. The Professor spoke of mental perception also as different from sense perception.

M.: To infer one's existence no other evidence is necessary. The indriyas (senses) and the mind arising from the ego cannot serve as evidence relating to the Self. The Self is their basis. They do not exist independently of the Self. One's own existence is self-evident.

Bliss is the Self. All become dear only owing to the love of Self.

D.: Love postulates duality. How can the Self be the object of love?
M.: Love is not different from the Self. Love of an object is of an inferior order and cannot endure. Whereas the Self is Love, in other words, God is Love.

D.: It is also the Christian idea.

He also asked Sri Bhagavan which of the methods was the best for the attainment of the goal. Is not Patanjali's the best?
M.: Yogas chitta vritti nirodhah - (Yoga is to check the mind from changing) - which is acceptable to all. That is also the goal of all.

The method is chosen according to one's own fitness. The goal for all is the same. Yet different names are given to the goal only to suit the process preliminary to reaching the goal. Bhakti, Yoga, Jnana are all the same. Svasvarupanusandhanam bhaktirity abhidheeyate
(Self contemplation is called bhakti).

D.: Does Sri Bhagavan advocate advaita?
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M.: Dvaita and advaita are relative terms. They are based on the sense of duality. The Self is as it is. There is neither dvaita nor advaita.

I AM THAT I AM. Simple Being is the Self.

D.: This is not mayavada.

M.: The mind is maya. Reality lies beyond the mind. So long as the mind functions there is duality, maya, etc. Once it is transcended the Reality shines forth. Although it is said to shine forth Selfeffulgence is the Self.

D.: It is Sat-chit-ananda.

M.: Sat-chit-ananda is said to indicate that the Supreme is not asat
(different from unreal), not achit (different from insentient) and not an anananda (different from unhappiness). Because we are in the phenomenal world we speak of the Self as Sacchidananda.

D.: Aham 'I' applies to the individual and also to Brahman. It is rather unfortunate.

M.: It is upadhi bheda (owing to different limiting adjuncts). The bodily limitations pertain to the aham ('I') of the jiva, whereas the universal limitations pertain to the aham ('I') of Brahman. Take off the upadhi (limiting adjunct); the 'I' (Aham) is pure and single.

D.: Does Bhagavan give diksha (initiation)?
M.: Mowna (silence) is the best and the most potent diksha. That was practised by Sri Dakshinamurti. Touch, look, etc., are all of a lower order. Silence (mowna diksha) changes the hearts of all. There is no Guru and no disciple.

The ajnani confounds his body with the Self and so he takes the other's body for the Guru. But does the Guru think his body to be the Self?
He has transcended the body. There are no differences for Him. So the ajnani cannot appreciate the standpoint of Guru and of sishya.

D.: Is there then no difference between the one and the other?
M.: There are differences from the standpoint of the phenomenal world but not from that of Reality.

The Professor was thankful. He hoped to appreciate Sri Bhagavan's writings better after having seen Him and conversed with Him.

In the course of conversation, Sri Bhagavan said that upasana and dhyana are possible so long as there is the mind and they must cease
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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi with the cessation of the mind. They are mere preliminaries to final eradication of thoughts and the stillness of mind.

D.: Saiva Siddhanta postulates three fundamentals as being eternal.

Is it opposed to Vedanta?
M.: The three entities are jiva, God and bondage. Such trinities are common in all religions. They are true so long as the mind is operative. They are mere creations of the mind. One can postulate
God only after the mind arises. God is not different from the Self.

The Self is objectified as God. So also with Guru.

The Professor returned in the evening and asked something about good actions. He further wondered why Brahman is said to be sacchidananda, but not God.

M.: Sat denotes being beyond sat and asat; Chit beyond chit and achit; Ananda beyond bliss and non-bliss.

What is it then? Even if not sat nor asat, It must be admitted to be sat only. Compare the term jnana. It is the state beyond knowledge and ignorance. Yet jnana is not ignorance but knowledge. So also with Sat-chit-ananda.

D.: It favours the one aspect.

After a word about Atma-vichara he took leave saying that he would not trouble Sri Maharshi any further although he had several doubts yet to be cleared and that he wanted to make nididhyasana of what he had heard so far.

A judge from Mysore asked: Upasana and dhyana were said to be due to mental activities. Cessation of activities was also said to be
Realisation. Now, how to realise without upasana or dhyana?
M.: They are preliminaries. Such action will lead to the desired inaction.

D.: The Heart is said to be experienced on the right. Physiologically it is on the left.

M.: Spiritual experience is spoken of.

D.: Is it the psychic heart?
M.: Yes.

D.: How to know that it is on the right?
M.: By experience.

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D.: Is there any indication to that effect?
M.: Point out to yourself and see.


28th December, 1937
Talk 434.

Being Christmas holidays, there is a great rush of visitors from far and near.

A group of them sat down and two among them asked as follows:
D.: Do you know English?
Prompted to ask questions, he continued:
D.: Have you realised your Self?
Sri Bhagavan smiled and said, "Go on, continue."
D.: Have you experienced nirvikalpa samadhi?
He was asked to finish his questions.

D.: Can you enter into nirvikalpa samadhi at will? Is it not necessary that sages should influence their surroundings?
Another man asked: Can Sri Bhagavan help us to realise the Truth?
M.: Help is always there.

D.: Then there is no need to ask questions. I do not feel the everpresent help.

M.: Surrender and you will find it.

D.: I am always at your feet. Will Bhagavan give us some upadesha to follow? Otherwise how can I get the help living 600 miles away?
M.: That Sadguru is within.

D.: Sadguru is necessary to guide me to understand it.

M.: The Sadguru is within.

D.: I want a visible Guru.

M.: That visible Guru says that He is within.

D.: Can I throw myself at the mercy of the Sadguru?
M.: Yes. Instructions are necessary only so long as one has not surrendered oneself.

D.: Is no particular time necessary for meditation?
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M.: Meditation depends on strength of mind. It must be unceasing, even when one is engaged in work. Particular time is meant for novices.

D.: Will Sadguru place His hand on my head to assure me of His help?
I will have the consolation that His promise will be fulfilled.

M.: A bond will be the next requisition and a suit will be filed if you imagine no help forthcoming. (Laughter).

D.: May I come near, Sir? (for blessing).

M.: Such doubts should not arise in you. They contradict your statement of surrender. Sadguru is always on your head.

D.: Surrender comes after effort.

M.: Yes, it becomes complete in due course.

D.: Is a teacher necessary for instructions?
M.: Yes, if you want to learn anything new. But here you have to unlearn.

D.: Yet a teacher is necessary.

M.: You have already got what you seek elsewhere. So no teacher is necessary.

D.: Is there any use of the man of Realisation for the seeker?
M.: Yes. He helps you to get rid of your delusion that you are not realised.

D.: So, tell me how.

M.: The paths are meant only to de-hypnotise the individual.

D.: De-hypnotise me. Tell me what method to follow.

M.: Where are you now? Where should you go?
D.: I know 'I am'; but I do not know what I am.

M.: Are there two 'I's then?
D.: It is begging the question.

M.: Who says this? Is it the one who is, or is it the other who does not know what he is?
D.: I am, but do not know what or how?
M.: 'I' is always there.

D.: Does the 'I' undergo any transformation, say in death?
M.: Who witnesses the transformation?
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D.: You seem to speak Jnana yoga. This is Jnana yoga.

M.: Yes, it is.

D.: But surrender is bhakti yoga.

M.: Both are the same
After some time the man continued: Then I have to conclude that I am
Consciousness and that nothing occurs except by my presence.

M.: It is one thing to conclude it by reasoning and another thing to be convinced.

The other man continued: I shall wait three months and see if help is forthcoming. Now, may I have the assurance?
M.: Is this what is asked by one who has surrendered?
Four visitors retired. The same man continued to say "Fulfil your promise." (Laughter).

He also said: God has given me enough for bread and butter and I am happy. In addition I want peace of mind. Hence this request.


29th December, 1937
Talk 435.

Two ladies and two gentlemen from Ceylon.

D.: Have you realised God? If so, in what shape?
M.: Who remains there to see God? The question might well be if one has known oneself.

D.: I have known myself.

M.: Is the 'I' different from the Self that you say you have known the Self?
D.: I know the Self as identical with the body. If the Self be different from the body let Bhagavan tell me how to see the Self separate from the body. He has realised God. He can teach me.

M.: Why should the Self be separated from the body? Let the body remain as it is.

D.: The soul when disembodied can see through all bodies.

M.: Are there others then? Or is there even your own body? Consider your sleep - You do not know your body then. But still you are there
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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi all the same. Did you then perceive the world through this or other bodies? Nevertheless, you cannot deny your existence then. There must be a subject to see the world and the subject must also be limited. If unlimited how can there be others beside the unlimited Self?
D.: Does God have any limits?
M.: Leave God alone. What limits were there for your Self in your sleep?
D.: Death must then be the highest state.

M.: Yes. We are now living in Death. Those who have limited the unlimited Self have committed suicide by putting on such limitations.

D.: Concentrate on the Self, you say. How to do it?
M.: If that is solved everything else is solved.

D.: Know thyself, you say. How to know the Self?
M.: You now know that you are the body.

D.: Raja yoga realises through the body, senses, etc., and Sri Bhagavan advises realisation by thinking. This is jnana yoga.

M.: How can you think without the body?
D.: God does not think.

M.: Why then did you start asking, "In what shape did you see God?"
D.: God must be felt through the senses.

M.: Are you not feeling God?
D.: Is everybody feeling God always?
M.: Yes.

D.: Then what is realisation?
M.: Realisation is to get rid of the delusion that you have not realised.

D.: I don't catch the point.

They left, having taken a snapshot.

Talk 436.

D.: What is visvarupa?
M.: It is to see the world as the Self of God. In the Bhagavad Gita God is said to be various things and beings, and also the whole universe.

How to realise it or see it so? Can one see one's Self? Though not seen, can the Self be denied? What is the Truth?
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D.: Is it then wrong to say that some have seen it?
M.: It is true in the same degree as you are. The Gita begins saying that no one was born; in the fourth chapter it says, "the numerous incarnations, yours and mine, have taken place; I know them but you do not." Of these two statements, which is the truth? The instruction is according to the listener's understanding. If the second chapter contains the whole Truth, why should so many more chapters follow it?
In the Bible God says "I AM before Abraham." He does not say
"I was" but "I AM."
Talk 437.

M.: People have read of Vivekananda having asked Sri Ramakrishna,
"Have you seen God?" and imitate him now. They also ask, "Have you realised God?"
I ask what is realisation.

Realisation implies perfection. When you are limited, your perception also is limited. Your knowledge is thus imperfect. Of what value is that imperfect knowledge?
In Visvarupa Darsan, Arjuna is told to see whatever he desired and not what was presented before him. How can that darsan be real?

30th December, 1937
Talk 438.

A visitor asked: For beginners like me which is most suited: either worship of qualified God or contemplation of "I am Brahman"?
M.: The answer is contained in the question. The question itself shows it to be worship of qualified God.

D.: "I" is felt in the waking and dream states but not in deep sleep.

Why so?
M.: If so, does it not exist in deep sleep?
D.: Because there are mental modes in these two states and no such mode in the other.

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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Volume III
3rd January, 1938
Talk 439.

D.: Rama asks: "Brahman being Pure, how can maya arise from Him and veil Him also? "Vasishta replies: "In pure mind associated with strong dispassion this question will not arise." Of course in advaita
(non-dualistic) philosophy there can be no place for jiva, Isvara and maya. Oneself sinking into the Self, the vasanas (tendencies) will entirely disappear, leaving no room for such a question.

M.: The answers will be according to the capacity of the seeker. It is said in the second chapter of Gita that no one is born or dies: but in the fourth chapter Sri Krishna says that numerous incarnations of His and of Arjuna had taken place, all known to Him but not to
Arjuna. Which of these statements is true? Both statements are true, but from different standpoints. Now a question is raised: How can jiva rise up from the Self? I must answer. Only know Your Real
Being, then you will not raise this question.

Why should a man consider himself separate? How was he before being born or how will he be after death? Why waste time in such discussions? What was your form in deep sleep? Why do you consider yourself as an individual?
D.: My form remains subtle in deep sleep.

M.: As is the effect so is the cause. As is the tree so is its seed. The whole tree is contained in the seed which later manifests as the tree. The expanded tree must have a substratum which we call maya. As a matter of truth there is neither seed nor tree. There is only Being.

D.: Vasanakshaya (total end of all predispositions) - Mano nasa
(annihilation of mind) - Atma-sakshatkara (Realisation of the
Self). They seem to be interdependent.

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M.: The different expressions have only one meaning. They differ according to the individual's stage of progress. Dispassion,
Realisation, all mean the same thing; also they say 'practice and dispassion'. Why practice? Because the modes of mind once subside and then rise up; again subside and rise up, and so on.

D.: Beginningless predisposition makes one do wrong. Without jnana this predisposition cannot vanish. But jnana looks almost impossible. Expiation alone cannot undo all the karma; for how much expiation will be needed! Look where we will! Everything looks difficult, even impossible. Association with the wise seems to be the only cure of all ills.

M.: What is to be done? Reality is One only. How can It be realised?
Realisation is thus an illusion. Practice seems to be necessary. Who is to practise? Looking for the doer, the act and the accessories disappear.

Moreover, if Realisation is not present here and now, how can It, newly got, be of any use? What is permanent must be eternally present. Can it be newly got and be permanent also?
Realise what is present here and now. The sages did so before and still do that only. Hence they say that it looks as if newly got. Once veiled by ignorance and later revealed, Reality looks as if newly realised. But it is not new.

D.: Karma, bhakti, yoga and jnana and their subdivisions only confuse the mind. To follow the elders' words seems to be the only right thing to do. What should I hold? Please tell me. I cannot sift the srutis and smritis; they are too vast. So please advise me.

(No answer.)
Talk 440.

D.: Without logic, without learned terminology, please instruct me the way to the Bliss of Self. Let it be of Guru's grace only.

M.: Have a clear idea of your requirement. Who seeks to gain what?
Then ask the method.

D.: Bliss manifests occasionally but I am unable to describe it. At times there is illumination, but is it the Reality? If so, how to make
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Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi it permanent? The method must be simple. Please make it clear without logic, learned discussions or mystifying words.

(No answer.)
Another visitor asked: Please tell me which is the most efficacious of all the methods, e.g., prayer to God, Guru anugraha, i.e., master's grace, concentration of mind, etc.

M.: The one is the consequence of the other. Each of them leads to the next stage. They form a continuous whole. God, Guru, and the
Self are not different. They are one and the same. Therefore the methods offer no choice.

Talk 441.

Mr. Pannalal, I. C. S., a high Government official from Allahabad, with his wife, a highly cultured lady, and Mr. Brijnarayan, a retired judge, were on a visit for a week. The night previous to their departure they wanted to have their doubt cleared. Their doubt was:
We had a great sage for our Guru. He advised us to "take the name of Hari," saying that it is all in all; no effort is necessary for concentrating the mind. Concentration will come of itself if Harinam is persisted in. So we are doing it. The Guru passed away. We felt like a rudderless ship in mid-ocean. In our anxiety to find a safe guide we read and heard of you and so desired to come here. Our desire has been fulfilled after two years' longing. On coming here and hearing Sri Bhagavan we understand that the Master teaches
Atma-vichara (self-quest). This is the method of knowledge (jnana marga), whereas the other master taught us bhakti marga (method of devotion).

What shall we do now? Are we to give up the other method and take to this new method? If once we change shall we not change many times more according to the masters we meet? What progress can be made by such frequent changes? Pray remove this doubt and bless us.

The Master referred the gentleman to an article in the September number of Vision, a monthly journal issued by the Anandasram.

Kanhangad.

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PHILOSOPHY OF THE DIVINE NAME
ACCORDING TO ST. NAMDEV
The name permeates the entire universe densely; who can tell to what depths in the nether regions and to what height in the heaven It extends?
The ignorant fools undergo the eighty-four lakhs of species of births, not knowing the essence of things. The Name is immortal. Forms are innumerable but Name is all that. The Name itself is form and form itself is Name. There is no distinction between Name and form. God became manifest and assumed Name and form. Hence the Name the
Vedas have established. Beware, there is no mantram beyond the
Name. Those who say otherwise are ignorant fools. Name is Keshava
Himself. This is known only to the loving devotees of the Lord.

The all-pervading nature of the Name can only be understood when one recognises his own 'I'. When one's own name is not recognised, it is impossible to get all-pervading Name. When one knows oneself then one finds the Name everywhere.

None can realise the Name by the practice of knowledge, meditation or austerity. Surrender yourself at first at the feet of the Guru and learn to know who the 'I' in you is. After finding the source of that 'I', merge your individuality in that Oneness - which is Self-existent and devoid of all duality. It is that Name that permeates the three worlds.

The Name is Paramatman Itself where there is no action arising out of dvaita (duality).


8th January, 1938
Talk 442.

While explaining a stanza of his own Sri Bhagavan observed: The sun illumines the universe, whereas the Sun of Arunachala is so dazzling that the universe is obscured and an unbroken brilliance remains. But it is not realised in the present state and can be realised only if the lotus of the heart blossoms. The ordinary lotus blossoms in the light of the visible sun, whereas the subtle Heart blossoms only before the
Sun of Suns. May Arunachala make my heart blossom so that His unbroken brilliance may shine all alone!
Further on, Sri Bhagavan continued: The mirror reflects objects; yet they are not real because they cannot remain apart from the mirror.

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Similarly, the world is said to be a reflection in the mind as it does not remain in the absence of mind. The question arises: if the universe is a reflection, there must be a real object known as the universe in order that it might be reflected in the mind. This amounts to an admission of the existence of an objective universe. Truly speaking, it is not so.

Therefore the dream illustration is set forth. The dream world has no objective existence. How then is it created? Some mental impressions should be admitted. They are called vasanas. How were the vasanas in the mind? The answer is: they were subtle. Just as a whole tree is contained potentially in a seed, so the world is in the mind.

Then it is asked: A seed is the product of the tree which must have existed once in order that it may be reproduced. So the world also must have been there some time. The answer is, No! There must have been several incarnations to gather the impressions which are re-manifested in the present form. I must have existed before as I do now. The straight way to find an answer will be to see if the world is there. Admitting the existence of the world I must admit a seer who is no other than myself. Let me find myself so that I may know the relation between the world and the seer.

When I seek the Self and abide as the Self there is no world to be seen.

What is the Reality then? The seer only and certainly not the world.

Such being the truth the man continues to argue on the basis of the reality of the world. Whoever asked him to accept a brief for the world?
Yoga Vasishta clearly defines Liberation as the abandonment of the false and remaining as Being.

Talk 443.

A visitor asked: The illustration of the mirror relates to the sense of sight only. The world is perceived by the other senses also. Can the unreality be established in relation to the other senses as well?
M.: A figure on the screen in the cinema show appears to watch the whole world. What is the reality behind the subject and the object in the same show? An illusory being watches an illusory world.

D.: But I am the witness of the show.

M.: Certainly you are. You and the world are as real as the cinema figure and the cinema world.

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Talk 444.

An advocate visitor: The mind becomes aware of the world through the senses. When the senses are active, one cannot help feeling the existence of the world. How can karma yoga be of any use for pure awareness?
M.: The world is perceived by the mind through the senses. It is of the mind. The seer sees the mind and the senses as within the Self and not apart from it. The agent, remaining unaffected by the actions, gets more purified until he realises the Self.


9th January, 1938
Talk 445.

Explaining a stanza in Aksharamanamalai Sri Bhagavan said that mowna is the highest form of upadesa. It signifies 'silence' as master, disciple and practiser. Three sanyasins, who were visiting
Sri Bhagavan, began a discussion.

D.: If one remained quiet how is action to go on? Where is the place for karma yoga?
M.: Let us first understand what Karma is, whose Karma it is and who is the doer. Analysing them and enquiring into their truth, one is perforce obliged to remain as the Self in peace. Nevertheless the actions will go on.

D.: How will the actions go on if I do not act?
M.: Who asks this question? Is it the Self or another? Is the Self concerned with actions?
D.: No, not the Self. It is another, different from the Self.

M.: So it is plain that the Self is not concerned with actions and the question does not arise.

D.: I agree.

Another asked: What is the state of the realised man? Is he not acting?
M.: The question implies that the realised man is not the questioner.

Why should you concern yourself with another? Your duty is to look to yourself and not ask of others.

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D.: The scriptures hold him up as the ideal.

M.: Certainly. He is the ideal. You should realise the Self. Even if his state be now described, your understanding of it will be only according to your capacity. You admit that your capacity is limited.

The scriptures say that the realised state admits of no limits. So then, the only way to understand his state is to realise the Self and experience the state. If the question arises afterwards the answer will be found.

Another visitor asked: There is differentiation made between the sentient and the insentient (chit and jada) in the opening verse of
Upadesa Sara.

M.: The Upadesa is from the standpoint of the hearer. There is no truth in the insentient (jada). One whole consciousness (chit) prevails all alone.


24th January, 1938
Talk 446.

Mr. Grant Duff was in the hall. Sri Bhagavan was mentioning some new publications and Maha Yoga among others. He also remarked that Mr. G. D. having read Sat Darsana Bhashya would be surprised at the different view of Maha Yoga. Both claim to represent Sri
Bhagavan's philosophy; but they differ so much that Maha Yoga actually condemns the other.

Someone cited the curious claim of Sat Darsana Bhashya that individuality is retained even after the loss of ego.

Sri Bhagavan remarked:
What is to be done? The Upanishads say: Brahmavid Brahmaiva bhavati (Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman). There are more than one Brahmavid at a time. "Are all of them the same? Are they not separate?" So ask some persons. They look to the bodies only. They do not look to the realisation. There is no difference in the realisation of the Brahmavid. That is the Truth. But when the question is raised from the standpoint of the body the reply is necessarily bound to be
"Yes. They are different". This is the cause of the confusion.

431


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Mr. G. Duff: The Buddhists deny the world; the Hindu philosophy admits its existence, but says that it is unreal. Am I right?
M.: The difference of view is according to the difference in the angles of vision.

D.: They say that Sakti creates the world. Is the knowledge of unreality due to the unveiling of maya?
M.: All admit Sakti's creation. What is the nature of the Creatrix?
It can only be in conformity with the nature of the creation. The
Creatrix is of the same nature as Her creation.

D.: Are there degrees of illusion?
M.: Illusion is itself illusory. Illusion must be seen by one beyond it. Can such a seer be subject to illusion? Can he then speak of degrees of illusion?
There are scenes floating on the screen in a cinema show. Fire appears to burn buildings to ashes. Water seems to wreck vessels.

But the screen on which the pictures are projected remains unscorched and dry. Why?
Because the pictures are unreal and the screen is real.

Again reflections pass through a mirror; but the mirror is not in any way affected by the quality or quantity of the reflections on it.

So the world is a phenomenon on the single Reality, which is not affected in any manner. Reality is only one.

The discussion about illusion is due to the difference in the angle of vision. Change your angle of vision to one of jnana and then find the universe to be only Brahman. Being now in the world, you see the world as such. Get beyond it and this will disappear: the
Reality alone will shine.

Talk 447.

Sri Bhagavan said that a saint Namah Sivaya who was formerly living in Arunachala must have undergone considerable difficulties. For he has sung a song saying: "God proves the devotee by means of severe ordeals. A washerman beats the cloth on a slab, not to tear it, but only to remove the dirt."
432


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi

25th January. 1938
Talk 448.


LITERAL TRANSLATION OF NAMDEV'S
"PHILOSOPHY OF THE DIVINE NAME."
I. The Name permeates densely the sky and the lowest regions and the entire universe. Who can tell to what depths in the nether regions and to what height in the heavens It extends? The ignorant undergo the eighty-four lakhs of species of births, not knowing the essence of things. Namdev says the Name is immortal. Forms are innumerable, but the Name is all that.

II. The Name itself is form; and form itself is Name. There is no distinction between Name and form. God became manifest and assumed Name and form. Hence the Name the Vedas have established.

Beware, there is no mantra beyond the Name. Those who say otherwise are ignorant. Namdev says the Name is Keshava Himself.

This is known only to the loving devotees of the Lord.

III. The all-pervading nature of the Name can only be understood when one recognises his 'I'. When one's own name is not recognised, it is impossible to get the all-pervading Name. When one knows oneself, then one finds the Name everywhere. To see the Name as different from the Named creates illusion. Namdev says, "Ask the Saints."
IV. None can realise the Name by practice of knowledge, meditation or austerity. Surrender yourself first at the feet of the Guru and learn to know that 'I' myself is that Name. After finding the source of that 'I', merge your individuality in that one-ness, which is Self-existent and devoid of all duality. That which pervades beyond dwaita and dwaitatita, that Name has come into the three worlds. The Name is Para Brahman itself, where there is no action arising out of duality.

When Sri Bhagavan had read this, a certain musician came into the hall and began to sing Tyagaraja Kirtanas in Telugu. One of them says: "Find the source of the sound which is transcendental (mooladhara sabda) by diving deep like a pearl-diver diving for pearls." Then again another song was: "For a man who has controlled his mind where is the use of tapasya?
Give up 'I-am-the-body' idea and realise 'I am not; Thou art all'."
This song was translated to Mr. G. D. who was then in the hall.

433


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Mr. G. D. asked: Is it necessary to control one's breath? What becomes of the man who has not practised breath-control?
M.: Breath-control is only an aid for diving deep. One may as well dive down by control of mind. On the mind being controlled, the breath becomes controlled automatically. One need not attempt breathcontrol; mind-control is enough. Breath-control is recommended for the man who cannot control his mind straightaway.

Naham - I am not this - corresponds to rechaka
Koham - Who am I? (search for the I) - corresponds to puraka
Soham - He am I; (The Self alone) - corresponds to kumbhaka.

So these are the functions of pranayama.

Again the three formulae are:
Na - Aham (Not - I).

Ka - Aham (Who - I).

Sa - Aham (He - I).

Delete the prefixes and hold on to the common factor in all of them.

That is Aham-'I', that is the gist of the whole matter.

Later on Sri Bhagavan referred to the songs and said: Tyagaraja says well. The mind should be controlled. The question arises "What is mind?" He himself answers in the next couplet, saying that it is the "I-am-the-body" idea. The next question is how the control is effected. He answers again, saying "By complete surrender. Realise that I am not and that all is He." The song is fine and compact. He also mentions the other method, namely, control of breath.


31st January, 1938
Talk 449.

After Mr. G. D. had left, there was some reference to his visit to the Asramam.

Sri Bhagavan remarked, "Some Sakti draws people from all parts of the globe to this centre." A devotee aptly said, "That Sakti is not different from Sri Bhagavan." Sri Bhagavan immediately remarked, "What Sakti drew me here originally? The same Sakti draws all others as well."
Sri Bhagavan was, happily, in the mood to relate the following stories.

434


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
I. There was king with a devoted queen. She was a devotee of Sri
Rama and yearned that her husb and should similarly be a devotee.

One night she found that the king mumbled something in his sleep.

She kept her ears close to his lips and heard the word 'Rama' repeated continually as in japa. She was delighted and the next day ordered the minister to hold a feast. The king having partaken of the feast asked his wife for an explanation. She related the whole occurrence and said that the feast was in gratitude to God for the fulfilment of her long cherished wish. The king was however annoyed that his devotion should have been found out. Some say that having thus betrayed God he considered himself unworthy of God and so committed suicide. It means that one should not openly display one's piety. We may take it that the king told the queen not to make a fuss over his piety and they then lived happily together.

II. THONDARADIPODI (Bhaktanghrirenu) ALWAR: One who delights in the dust of the feet of devotees. A devotee (of this name) was keeping a plot of land in which he grew tulasi, the sacred basil, made garlands of it, and supplied the same to the God in the temple.

He remained a bachelor and was respected for his life and conduct.

One day two sisters, who lived by prostitution, walked near the garden and sat under a tree. One of them said, "How disgusting is my life that
I soil my body and mind every day. This man's life is most desirable."
The other replied, "How do you know his mind? Maybe he is not as good as he appears to be. The bodily functions may be forcibly controlled and the mind may be revelling in riotous thoughts. One cannot control one's vasanas as easily as the physical frame."
The former said, "The actions are only the indices of the mind. His life shows his mind to be pure."
The other said, "Not necessarily. His mind has not been proved as yet."
The first challenged her to prove his mind. She accepted. The second desired to be left alone with only a shred of garment in which to clo the herself. The first sister returned home, leaving the other alone with flimsy clothing. As the latter continued to remain under the tree, she appeared penitent and humble. The saint noticed her and approached her after some time. He asked what had happened to her that she
435


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi looked so lowly. She pleaded penitence for her past life, desired to lead a purer and nobler life and finished with a prayer to him to accept her humble services in the garden or attendance on himself. He advised her to return home and lead a normal life. But she protested. So he detained her for watering the tulasi plants. She accepted the function with delight and began to work in the garden.

One rainy night this woman was found standing under the eaves of the thatched shed in which the saint was. Her clothes were dripping and she was shivering with cold. The master asked why she was in such a pitiable state. She said that her place was exposed to the rains and so she sought shelter under the eaves and that she would retire as soon as the rain ceased. He asked her to move into the hut and later told her to change her wet clothes. She did not have dry cloth to put on. So he offered her one of his own clothes. She wore it, still later she begged permission to massage his feet. He consented. Eventually they embraced.

The next day she returned home, had good food and wore fine clothes.

She still continued to work in the garden.

Sometimes she used to remain long in her home. Then this man began to visit her there until he finally lived with her. Nevertheless he did not neglect the garden nor the daily garlands for God. There was public scandal regarding his change of life. God then resolved to restore him to his old ways and so assumed the shape of the saintly devotee himself. He appeared to the dasi and secretly offered her a rich present, an anklet of God.

She was very pleased with it and hid it under her pillow. He then disappeared. All these were secretly observed by a maid servant in the house.

The ornament was found missing in the temple. The worshipper reported the loss to the proper authorities. They offered a tempting reward for anyone who would give the clue for the recovery of the lost property. The maid servant afforded the clue and claimed the reward.

The police recovered the ornament and arrested the dasi who said that the devotee gave her the same. He was then roughly handled. A supernatural voice said. "I did it. Leave him alone."
436


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
The king and all others were surprised. They fell prostrate at the man's feet and set him free. He then led a better and nobler life.

III. KADUVELI SIDHAR was famed as a very austere hermit. He lived on the dry leaves fallen from trees. The king of the country heard of him, saw him and offered a reward for the one who would prove this man's worth. A rich dasi agreed to do it. She began to live near the recluse and pretended to attend on him. She gently left pieces of pappadam along with the dry leaves picked by him. When he had eaten them she began to leave other kinds of tasty food along with the dry leaves. Eventually he took good tasty dishes supplied by her.

They became intimate and a child was born to them. She reported the matter to the king.

The king wanted to know if she could prove their mutual relationship to the general public. She agreed and suggested a plan of action.

Accordingly the king announced a public dancing performance by that dasi and invited the people to it. They gathered there and she also appeared, but not before she had given a dose of physic to the child and left it in charge of the saint at home.

The dance was at its height here; the child was crying at home for the mother. The father took the babe in his arms and went to the dancing performance. She was dancing hilariously. He could not approach her with the child. She noticed the man and the babe. She contrived to kick her legs in the dance so as to unloose one of her anklets just as she approached the place where the saint was. She gently lifted her foot and he tied the anklet. The public shouted and laughed. But he remained unaffected. Yet to prove his worth, he sang a Tamil song meaning:
"For victory, let go my anger! I release my mind when it rushes away. If it is true that I sleep day and night quite aware of my Self, may this stone burst into twain and become the wide expanse!"
Immediately the stone (idol) burst with a loud noise The people were astounded.

Sri Bhagavan continued:
Thus he proved himself an unswerving Jnani. One should not be deceived by the external appearance of Jnani. Thus Vedantachudamani - V. 181.

437


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi
Its meaning is as follows:
Although a jivanmukta associated with body may, owing to his prarabdha, appear to lapse into ignorance or wisdom, yet he is only pure like the ether (akasa) which is always itself clear. whether covered by dense clouds or cleared of clouds by currents of air. He always revels in the
Self alone, like a loving wife taking pleasure with her husb and alone, though she attends on him with things obtained from others (by way of fortune, as determined by her prarabdha). Though he remains silent like one devoid of learning, yet his supineness is due to the implicit duality of the vaikhari vak (spoken words) of the Vedas; his silence is the highest expression of the realised non-duality which is after all the true content of the Vedas. Though he instructs his disciples, yet he does not pose as a teacher, in the full conviction that the teacher and disciple are mere conventions born of illusion (maya), and so he continues to utter words
(like akasvani); if on the other hand he mutters words incoherently like a lunatic, it is because his experience is inexpressible like the words of lovers in embrace. If his words are many and fluent like those of an orator, they represent the recollection of his experience, since he is the unmoving non-dual One without any desire awaiting fulfilment. Although he may appear grief-stricken like any other man in bereavement, yet he evinces just the right love of and pity for the senses which he earlier controlled before he realised that they were mere instruments and manifestations of the Supreme Being. When he seems keenly interested in the wonders of the world, he is only ridiculing the ignorance born of superimposition. If he appears indulging in sexual pleasures, he must be taken to enjoy the ever-inherent Bliss of the Self, which, divided Itself into the Individual
Self and the Universal Self, delights in their reunion to regain Its original
Nature. If he appears wrathful he means well to the offenders. All his actions should be taken to be only divine manifestations on the plane of humanity. There should not arise even the least doubt as to his being emancipated while yet alive. He lives only for the good of the world.

Sri Bhagavan now warned the hearers against the mistake of disparaging a Jnani for his apparent conduct and again cited the story of Parikshit.

He was a still-born child. The ladies cried and appealed to Sri Krishna to save the child. The sages round about wondered how Krishna was going to save the child from the effects of the arrows (apandavastra)
438


Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi of Asvatthama. Krishna said, "If the child be touched by one eternally celibate (nityabrahmachari) the child would be brought to life." Even
Suka dared not touch the child. Finding no one among the reputed saints bold enough to touch the child, Krishna went and touched it, saying, "If
I am eternally celibate (nityabrahmachari) may the child be brought to life." The child began to brea the and later grew up to be Parikshit.

Just consider how Krishna surrounded by 16,000 gopis is a brahmachari! Such is the mystery of jivanmukti! A jivanmukta is one who does not see anything separate from the Self.

If however a man consciously attempts to display siddhis he will receive only kicks.


3rd February, 1938


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